I am not sure how Ford could have set it up for Maeve to constantly be worked on by Felix each time she died. I see 2 options here. 1) She was programmed to repeat her awakening until she found a human that would help, or 2) each time she died, if she woke up in some other tech's lab, she just "stayed" dead until she got Felix.
*** WESTWORLD Season 1 (HBO) ***
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Felix is one of those things that I think too much time has been dedicated to. Ford made a whole speech to Theresa about knowing absolutely everything about his employees, so he obviously handpicked Felix for this job and set it up so that Maeve would end up with him.
Was Clementine the one who shot old William? Or was it that blonde host from when he first visited? I couldn't tell, but my first thought it was Clementine.
these guys really like 90s radiohead
bobinator said:
That's the entire point though, Bernard made her kill all those people last time. This time, she decided to do it on her own.
But did she really? Or was it the old programming telling her to do so again?
Much like the hosts from storage, was that really their choice or was it Ford programming them so that he could kill the board?
All of this has Ford's fingerprints all over it.
jabberwalkie09 said:Brian Earl Spilner said:
So having had a night of to digest the finale, things are becoming a little clearer. But one thing that I keep coming back to is - what exactly was Dolores' motivation to kill all those board members?
Is there some detail I missed? I'm planning to rewatch the finale but this question is bugging me.
This is one of the reasons I don't particularly care for Nolan making her Wyatt. It makes it a matter of programming than one of choice IMO.
Which IMO pretty much destroys the journey to he center of the maze arc.
I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the episode because I did, but damn. Dolores being Wyatt pretty much destroyed her journey to ge center of the maze because it's almost as if the old programming manifested again under Ford's manipulation....
Wyatt/Delores had some strange ideas. This world isn't for the hosts or the visitors, but for someone yet to come... the sentient hosts.
We see her talking to herself and then making the decision that both her and Ford knew she had to make. As long as Ford was alive, the hosts could never know for sure that they were free.
This show has had a lot of misdirection, but it hasn't outright lied to the audience. So to show Dolores talking to herself, even the voice in her head actually changing to her own voice, means that she's the one that made the decision.
This show has had a lot of misdirection, but it hasn't outright lied to the audience. So to show Dolores talking to herself, even the voice in her head actually changing to her own voice, means that she's the one that made the decision.
I assumed this was all put out right in front of us. All the while Ford was giving his speech, Dolores was having her epiphany about the voice she was hearing was her own. She explicitly said "I know what I must become," and she decided to become that thing.
jabberwalkie09 said:bobinator said:
That's the entire point though, Bernard made her kill all those people last time. This time, she decided to do it on her own.
But did she really? Or was it the old programming telling her to do so again?
Much like the hosts from storage, was that really their choice or was it Ford programming them so that he could kill the board?
All of this has Ford's fingerprints all over it.
The fact that she hears her own voice in her head answers this question. True sentience, and free will.
Dolores has reached a level others haven't but I still feel the shooting of Ford, on cue at the end of a dramatic speech, and the shooting of others in the crowd was programming. I see it referenced above as a choice, not sure that is the case. It's a little confusing to me as far as her sentience yet still being able to be programmed, she reached the center of the maze decades ago but could still be programmed after that.
Yes, I think this is exactly right. The bicameral mind is Albert's key to the center of the maze and sentience. Dolores achieved it. We haven't seen Maeve have conversations with herself yet.bobinator said:
We see her talking to herself and then making the decision that both her and Ford knew she had to make. As long as Ford was alive, the hosts could never know for sure that they were free.
This show has had a lot of misdirection, but it hasn't outright lied to the audience. So to show Dolores talking to herself, even the voice in her head actually changing to her own voice, means that she's the one that made the decision.
Because she hadn't really reached it. Even the center of Arnold's maze wasn't true consciousness yet. We even see, in a flashback, Arnold trying to get Dolores to say whose voice it is she's hearing, and she says she doesn't understand. As far along as she is, it's still Arnold's voice inside her head, not her own.
That's the entire thing, in the end, Ford and Dolores know what has to be done, and they do it in the most dramatic way possible. He is, after all, a storyteller.
That's the entire thing, in the end, Ford and Dolores know what has to be done, and they do it in the most dramatic way possible. He is, after all, a storyteller.
Complete Idiot said:
Dolores has reached a level others haven't but I still feel the shooting of Ford, on cue at the end of a dramatic speech, and the shooting of others in the crowd was programming. I see it referenced above as a choice, not sure that is the case. It's a little confusing to me as far as her sentience yet still being able to be programmed, she reached the center of the maze decades ago but could still be programmed after that.
This sums up what I was thinking.
She has reached the center of the maze numerous times, and each time she failed to realize that Arnold was trying to get her to hear her inner voice. She finally heard it after meeting with Ford. The fact that she timed her killing with his speech is (in my opinion) dramatic storytelling from HBO, not Ford, in this case. The bigger question, to me, is whether or not Ford knew she would reach full sentience. What would he have done if she didn't figure it out, and didn't kill him?
She did, but we just don't see it actually played out on screen. We can, I think reasonably, interpret her indecision on the train, and then the final decision to get off (again, against what the program told her to do) as an internal dialogue with herself.
bobinator said:
We don't actually see him in the park, but as Dromo said, that's sort of the implication of all the old hosts being gone from cold storage when Sizemore opens up the doors and they aren't there.
I need to rewatch, because I don't remember that at all. Was he going down there for Abernathy or some other reason? For whatever reason, I was under the impression that Abernathy was already gone, perhaps on the same train as Maeve.
Since the shooting was so key to Ford's "show", I have a hard time believing he left it totally to her free will. But perhaps this is something I should just accept and not overthink, like much of the show.
I should watch the entire season again, I have a drinking problem on Sunday nights.
I should watch the entire season again, I have a drinking problem on Sunday nights.
Fairly certain that Charlotte sent him down there to get Abernathy out of the park.bangobango said:bobinator said:
We don't actually see him in the park, but as Dromo said, that's sort of the implication of all the old hosts being gone from cold storage when Sizemore opens up the doors and they aren't there.
I need to rewatch, because I don't remember that at all. Was he going down there for Abernathy or some other reason? For whatever reason, I was under the impression that Abernathy was already gone, perhaps on the same train as Maeve.
This is a great parallel. But I'd suggest that Maeve is Koba, not Bernard. An interesting dynamic would be a civil war between Dolores/Caesar and Maeve/Koba.TCTTS said:
Speaking of Planet of the Apes, in addition to The Lost World, another good season two comparison could be Dawn of the Planet of the Apes. Dolores as Caesar and Bernard as whoever Caesar's right-hand ape was. That basic dynamic of an ape or two that's way smarter/more aware than the others, but can teach the rest and unite them. All the hosts form a huge clan of sorts and then - playing into The Lost World comparison - an outside group of humans shows up and it's war.
My thought - on the final orchestration.
You can be sentient and conscious and still take orders from a higher power.....we all have a boss in the end.
Whether you choose to follow those orders or not is free will and has consequences.
So while Dolores may have consciousness and be sentient she could still be programmed - she just may choose to follow some commands and not others. So in the interest of what was best for Ford and her she followed what was programmed for the finale? Maybe.
Counter Example - Maeve was perhaps acting on free will, we saw she was programmed to leave the park on the train and enter society but she chose to override that and leave the train.
There's definitely going to be a "civil war" about what's to be done of all the humans in the park. In the first episode I think they say there's over 1,500 people in the park. Shooting the people in control is one thing, they're the ones subjugating the hosts, but what about the park patrons? Some of them are just innocent people who want to go on a trail ride, including children.
As you said, the show misdirects but doesn't lie. We did see direct evidence that every decision Maeve made was due to programming. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that Maeve had the same epiphany as Dolores until we actually see it.bobinator said:
She did, but we just don't see it actually played out on screen. We can, I think reasonably, interpret her indecision on the train, and then the final decision to get off (again, against what the program told her to do) as an internal dialogue with herself.
I'm happy to see P90s make it back on tv and that they can kill more than just goa'uld.
Yeah, I mean she definitely did what Ford wanted, but it's also what she wanted. If someone in my office gives me a nice steak and tells me to go home and grill it, I'm probably going to go home and grill it, but not just because that's what they told me to do, it's because I want a nice steak.
My argument is that we did see it. Those 15 minutes of indecision on the train followed by her deciding to do what her emotions told her to do instead of what he programming told her to do was us seeing it. I don't think we need to have a literal visual interpretation of it every time a host crosses that threshold.
That's how I interpreted all of that anyway. Otherwise, what's the point?
That's how I interpreted all of that anyway. Otherwise, what's the point?
bobinator said:
She did, but we just don't see it actually played out on screen. We can, I think reasonably, interpret her indecision on the train, and then the final decision to get off (again, against what the program told her to do) as an internal dialogue with herself.
I'm on the border with Maeve. i feel like it could go either way with her.
thats who it looked like to me.redline248 said:
Was Clementine the one who shot old William? Or was it that blonde host from when he first visited? I couldn't tell, but my first thought it was Clementine.
Ford also knew she was going to shoot him when he said goodbye to Bernard for the last time. Thinking back to that conversation, it's clear that Ford didn't think they were ready to leave the park. Maybe the war that's coming is the suffering they still need to become truly sentient.
Either way, I'm not 100% on that being Delores' choice either.
Either way, I'm not 100% on that being Delores' choice either.
It almost had to be, because she's the only other host that's had her core code programmed so she can shoot humans. Bernard did it to her so he could hold Ford hostage.
How they got her up and running again so quickly is perhaps a question for another day, but Clem can shoot people.
How they got her up and running again so quickly is perhaps a question for another day, but Clem can shoot people.
If it wasn't, then the entire first season was a waste of time right? I mean that was the entire point of the season.MW03 said:
Either way, I'm not 100% on that being Delores' choice either.
I understand what you're getting at, but if she is following the programming set by Ford, that negates and/or calls into question the validity of her finding the center of the maze. I understand that she has been to the center more than once and hadn't quite gotten the point if it all, but if she's following programming to get there as opposed to her own truth and decisions. It felt like the old personality of Wyatt that Arnold had programmed into her was just resurfacing and that Ford had allowed it to resurface so that he could program his "new narrative" into her and use her as a pawn.Zombie Jon Snow said:
So while Dolores may have consciousness and be sentient she could still be programmed - she just may choose to follow some commands and not others. So in the interest of what was best for Ford and her she followed what was programmed for the finale? Maybe.
Counter Example - Maeve was perhaps acting on free will, we saw she was programmed to leave the park on the train and enter society but she chose to override that and leave the train.
You counterpoint however shows a break from programming (Maeve's programmed desire to leave the park) which appeared as rather a choice than following programming. Up until that point, Maeve had been following her programming, whether she knew it or not.
I don't think Maeve has reached the center like Dolores, but I think she's probably pretty damn close.
I was waiting for Escaton to dual wield them like Teal'c.YellowPot_97 said:
I'm happy to see P90s make it back on tv and that they can kill more than just goa'uld.
I was also hoping to hear someone say "WHOA, WHOA, WHOA man! Bullets, bounce!"
That whole "shooting their way out" thing annoyed me some actually.
Are all of those people they shot hosts? Have to be right?
Because if not, why did anyone at the facility have guns that would kill people? If the guns inside the park can only kill hosts, why would the guns outside the park be able to actually kill people?
Are all of those people they shot hosts? Have to be right?
Because if not, why did anyone at the facility have guns that would kill people? If the guns inside the park can only kill hosts, why would the guns outside the park be able to actually kill people?
This. I am a big Radiohead fan and instantly starting singing the song as it played and though "Damn! How many people actually understand how perfect this music is right now?"
The whole gun thing is confusing. I was under the impression that whoever shot Harris could have killed him if they'd aimed better.bobinator said:
That whole "shooting their way out" thing annoyed me some actually.
Are all of those people they shot hosts? Have to be right?
Because if not, why did anyone at the facility have guns that would kill people? If the guns inside the park can only kill hosts, why would the guns outside the park be able to actually kill people?
I guess Ford could've sneaked in a gun for Dolores to use.
And then we have the "never shoot them in the face" question. Could Dolores have killed William in the graveyard when she dislocated his arm?
It certainly felt at the end like all the host could shoot and kill the humans, but I can't remember if Teddy started shooting people or if it was just Dolores?
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