I'm totally on board with this theory also, with one minor thought.... If Bernard is a recreation of Arnold, wouldn't someone (human) have noticed that Bernard looks just like Arnold?

Nobody really knows that Arnold existed or who he was. Ford said everybody wanted to sweep it under the rug and he was more than happy to take all the credit.

another angry ag said:

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Where did Elsie go?

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Either dead or really on leave.

I am glad Ford was the only one that knew Bernard was a host.

Also, Ford could've easily known about the board asking for a blood sacrifice because it was said with El Guapo in the room. Pretty sure Ford can tap into any host and get a playback at will.

I also wondered if the fact that Clem didn't recognize Ashley as a human is because he isn't one during their little test. Behind Bernard, he's been #2 on the "most likely to be a host" power rankings.

The big question here is whether or not Ford is in control of "Arnold" right? Like, Elsie found that Arnold was making changes to the hosts, was that actually Ford, or is it some sort of "ghost in the system" making changes that even Ford isn't aware of. If so, is there a part of Bernard that isn't under Ford's control?

Someone mentioned the "blood sacrifice" thing as not a coincidence, I'm working under the assumption that Ford could hear that conversation between Theresa and the board lady because there was a host in the room. Or, as he is insistent on reminding everyone that he built everything, he literally has the entire place bugged.

Just a couple of things I noticed.

PooDoo said:

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another angry ag said:

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Where did Elsie go?

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Either dead or really on leave.

I am glad Ford was the only one that knew Bernard was a host.

Also, Ford could've easily known about the board asking for a blood sacrifice because it was said with El Guapo in the room. Pretty sure Ford can tap into any host and get a playback at will.

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I bet the hosts are programmed to approach Ford with any threatening information. Though he really does not see the board as a threat by the way the demonstration and conversation at the went. My guess is that as long as the board gets what it wants he gets free reign on the park, and he's said as much. My guess is the just board wants ever more complex hosts(for what purpose who knows) and Ford is happy because this means he can experiment in the park more.

We also have to wonder if there are other things (like the door and the picture) that Bernard could not see that we will see in the future.

As an aside, is this happening to anyone else?

I know it's because we're on here debating theories all week dissecting every scene, but at this point the two timeline theory seems so obvious that I'm beginning to second guess it.

bobinator said:

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As an aside, is this happening to anyone else?

I know it's because we're on here debating theories all week dissecting every scene, but at this point the two timeline theory seems so obvious that I'm beginning to second guess it.

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I said to the wife yesterday that at this point I expect the final scene of the season to be the MiB/Teddy walking into a room and coming face to face with William/Dolores.

TCTTS said:

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I'll say this... we've all known Bernard was a host for a while now, but there's no way you hire someone like Jeffrey Wright to simply play Ford's robot lackey from here on out. I'm convinced that Bernard is a recreation of Arnold, even more so after seeing the no tie/tie clue. I'd be shocked if William and Delores don't run into / find Jeffrey Wright's Arnold just before he dies.

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William's story line has already made reference to Arnold's death so I don't think we'll be seeing that. At least not with William.

But like I've said before, the "two timelines" theory is actually going to be multiple timelines, as we are likely seeing a third timeframe with our conversations among "Bernard" (although potentially Arnold) and Dolores.

AliasMan02 said:

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bobinator said:

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As an aside, is this happening to anyone else?

I know it's because we're on here debating theories all week dissecting every scene, but at this point the two timeline theory seems so obvious that I'm beginning to second guess it.

---

I said to the wife yesterday that at this point I expect the final scene of the season to be the MiB/Teddy walking into a room and coming face to face with William/Dolores.

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The reverse plot twist!

We have already seen that Delores has her own timeline separate from all others. I think that timeline is likely the 'present'

I think when Teddy and MiB enter this room, they'll find Dolores there, but Dolores alone. I believe the maze and the new story line are separate even though MiB is technically on his search through the maze and it is intertwined with the Ford's new storyline. If Dolores' journey on the maze is still continuing after her and William split paths with Lawrence, then I suspect that while William was a necessity in Dolores' path through the maze, Dolores will become the essential ending of MiB's path through the maze.

I think it's important that, at this point in the story, William doesn't know anything about the maze.

Was "Bernard" wearing a tie when he was talking to his wife?

Are we sure that Ford killed Arnold, and not that Arnold killed himself?

I am still not exactly sure what Ford's end game is (he admitted they run a coup on him quite often) but I have to say this is one of the more entertaining shows I have ever seen. Now that actors can make money doing these types of things the quality has gone up. It used to be a guy like Anthony Hopkins would rather be shot than resort to television but that is no longer the case.

This show is really delivering for me.

I think Ford may just be a megalomaniac. He's Hammond from JP in a way... "creation is an act of pure will." I think he's obsessed with his own vision.

claym711 said:

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We have already seen that Delores has her own timeline separate from all others. I think that timeline is likely the 'present'

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I think this timeline and the MiB/Teddy timeline are concurrent. So it's not really "her own" timeline.

Just for clarity for people who might not be following along as closely.

This show has multiple villains that appear to be at odds with each other due to competing agendas and goals. The thing that separates this show from others with multiple villains is that in this case, each villain is genuinely terrifying in their own way. In this category you have the MiB, Ford, and Ben Barnes.

Then you have the antiheroes in Maeve, Teddy Flood, and even Lawrence. Though Maeve seems to be trending villain given her recent actions, with her [spoiler]hugely increased intelligence[/spoiler] she could easily be a counter to the MiB and Ford.

They seem to be setting up William and Delores as the heroes of the story if you take their timeline to be the present one.

It's going to be extremely interesting how it all turns out.

bobinator said:

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claym711 said:

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We have already seen that Delores has her own timeline separate from all others. I think that timeline is likely the 'present'

---

I think this timeline and the MiB/Teddy timeline are concurrent. So it's not really "her own" timeline.

Just for clarity for people who might not be following along as closely.

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I agree on the timelines being concurrent. We've already seen that she has seen the MiB in her visions while she was with William, so clearly William is not the same person as the MiB.

Vander said:

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bobinator said:

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claym711 said:

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We have already seen that Delores has her own timeline separate from all others. I think that timeline is likely the 'present'

---

I think this timeline and the MiB/Teddy timeline are concurrent. So it's not really "her own" timeline.

Just for clarity for people who might not be following along as closely.

---

I agree on the timelines being concurrent. We've already seen that she has seen the MiB in her visions while she was with William, so clearly William is not the same person as the MiB.

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No, that has not happened. Believe me, I tried like hell to verify that an it's not there. She sees the MIB right before meeting William.

AliasMan02 said:

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I think Ford may just be a megalomaniac. He's Hammond from JP in a way... "creation is an act of pure will." I think he's obsessed with his own vision.

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Isn't Crichton quoted that Jurassic Park took its inspiration from Westworld. We might be seeing the book Hammond.

Even more so than just the book Hammond, we're seeing the book Hammond had nothing gone wrong, the full vision was realized, and the ego came with it. Ford thinks he is (and kinda is) god of his domain.

john32f said:

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Even more so than just the book Hammond, we're seeing the book Hammond had nothing gone wrong, the full vision was realized, and the ego came with it. Ford thinks he is (and kinda is) god of his domain.

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Well the way the hosts respond to just his will would be enough for a god complex, hard to fault the man for that...

Westworld is literally Ford's world, the rest are just living in it.

bangobango said:

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Vander said:

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bobinator said:

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claym711 said:

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We have already seen that Delores has her own timeline separate from all others. I think that timeline is likely the 'present'

---

I think this timeline and the MiB/Teddy timeline are concurrent. So it's not really "her own" timeline.

Just for clarity for people who might not be following along as closely.

---

I agree on the timelines being concurrent. We've already seen that she has seen the MiB in her visions while she was with William, so clearly William is not the same person as the MiB.

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No, that has not happened. Believe me, I tried like hell to verify that an it's not there. She sees the MIB right before meeting William.

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You sure? I could have sworn that she saw him in one of her visions after she started changing. It makes no sense otherwise anyway because she is clearly moving beyond her programming so either they wiped her character completely and she regressed or they are happening at the same time.

bobinator said:

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Maybe I worded that wrong.

For clarity:

Old: Dolores is with William in the past, also potentially the scenes we've seen with "Bernard" are actually Arnold.

Current: Everything else. Especially now that we finally had a Maeve crossover moment where she was near Theresa and Bernard. My theory on current Dolores is that the MiB did or said something to her in the barn in the first episode to send her on the old loop through the park, and she will be meeting up with them at the end of the loop. That's why I think we've seen her jump between timelines, people have disappeared from scenes, etc.

---

Agreed with the clarification that if the person talking to Delores in the underground maintenance room is Arnold and not Bernard, that is a third time period, because Arnold is dead (or his death has been faked or whatever) before Logan and William arrive.

The one thing that messes with me is what exactly is happening when Delores is in Pariah with William. The sequence of her being put to sleep by Ford during the parade seems... off.

I also really loved the scene when they came to Clem and everyone was frozen except for Mauve. Very tense and well done.

My random thoughts:


So, who is in that photo? It would appear that it is a photo of Ford, Ford's dad or dad robot, and then there is room on the other side for another person. That appears to be a photo taken to commemorate/celebrate the creation of Ford's Dad robot.

What we know for sure is that the IF there is a person missing in the photo (and it seems almost certain that there is), then that person has to be somebody that would disturb Bernard's reality enough that he blocks it out and doesn't see it.

So, more than likely it is somebody we have already seen on the show. The obvious answer is it is Bernard himself, but it could just as easily be another cast member that has been re-spun as a host. It could just as easily be somebody we've not seen yet, but that would be, in my opinion, poor storytelling, and therefore I don't think the show will do that.

If it is Bernard, then what does that tell us? Well, we know that William and Logan enter the park after Arnold's death. So far, the popular theory is that Bernard's interviews with Dolores are happening concurrently with the Dolores/William quest. If that is true, then Bernard is either not Arnold, OR Bernard during the interviews with Dolores is a recreation of Arnold done by Ford. If this is true, then we should probably assume everything happening between Dolores/Bernard/William was planned by Ford.

This could be the case, as I think there is a lot of evidence that William is going to experience a life changing moment if Dolores's memory is wiped. He has fallen for her HARD. It's not going to be pretty for him when he realizes he's basically abandoned all his ideals and principals for a fancy Real Doll.

Another possibility is Bernard is speaking to Dolores as Arnold, and these conversations are occurring prior to William and Logan entering the park. Which means there could be three timelines, listed in chronological order as - 1. Bernard and Dolores interviews 2. William and Logan 3. Everything else.
OR the Dolores interviews could be with Arnold 30+ years ago and everything else is happening in the present. This would eliminate the William = MIB theory.

The underlying theme in a lot of this is Ford is really, really, really in control. He appears to be as close as you can be to being omniscient when it comes to this park. He has said it several times, and by now it should be sinking in with us as an audience ===> He is a God in Westworld.

Now, it would be bad storytelling for the bad guy to know EVERYTHING and to always be one step ahead of the heroes. So, there has to be at least ONE thread that Ford doesn't have his finger on, but hell if I know which one. Between the MIB quest, the William/Dolores quest, and the Maeve escape quest, I think we will find that at least two of them Ford will again be one step ahead of everyone else and either controlling the entire narrative or there to stop it before it can reach its conclusion.

I am starting to strongly suspect that William/Dolores quest is going exactly as Ford intended, and the conclusion of that quest is going to flip William to MIB and explain why he hates Ford so much.

I think that the conclusion of the series will show Ford thwarting all of our protagonist and then revealing his new narrative. I think this season will conclude on a pretty dark note. They better leave some ray of hope for change, however, or they may lose a lot of their audience.

Vander said:

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bangobango said:

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Vander said:

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bobinator said:

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claym711 said:

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We have already seen that Delores has her own timeline separate from all others. I think that timeline is likely the 'present'

---

I think this timeline and the MiB/Teddy timeline are concurrent. So it's not really "her own" timeline.

Just for clarity for people who might not be following along as closely.

---

I agree on the timelines being concurrent. We've already seen that she has seen the MiB in her visions while she was with William, so clearly William is not the same person as the MiB.

---

No, that has not happened. Believe me, I tried like hell to verify that an it's not there. She sees the MIB right before meeting William.

---

You sure? I could have sworn that she saw him in one of her visions after she started changing. It makes no sense otherwise anyway because she is clearly moving beyond her programming so either they wiped her character completely and she regressed or they are happening at the same time.

---

Well, that last option (the wipe her character and she regressed) was a big reason I was arguing against the disparate story lines to begin with. It's going to make for a big let down at the end of this season when we learn Dolores had all this change thirty years ago, yet today she is still stuck in her loop.

As far as when she sees the MIB. She is in the barn with the host rapist and she flashes to the MIB standing over her. Then she pulls a gun out of the hayloft and shoots the host/rapist as a voice in her head says "Kill him."

She then flees the barn and gets shot by another member of the gang. Then it flashes back and she manages to avoid getting shot and jumps on a horse and rides away.

There is then a cut and the next time we see her she stumbles into William and Logan's camp and passes out.

Those who advocate the William as MIB say that between the barn scene and the camp scene we cut back thirty years to William and Logan timeline.

I went back and watched the first three or four episodes and have been on the lookout ever since. There is not real continuity break from the thirty years theory. I can't find one and I've been looking an watching for it very carefully.

As we've seen William begin to lose himself in this world, as well as falling for Dolores, I suspect at the end of this season we're going to see Logan kill Dolores in front of William. I think this will explain a lot of different things. It will reveal the "revenge" that the MiB references to the soldiers. As well as mark the beginning of him overtaking the company. It will also explain MiB's reference to Dolores on "all they have been through." But more importantly, it will provide the MiB closure that Logan possibly stole from him 30 years ago. Would be very interesting to see if she would have flashbacks and begin to remember all her time with him from the past, as it is definitely buried down in there somewhere.

The White Wolf said:

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As we've seen William begin to lose himself in this world, as well as falling for Dolores, I suspect at the end of this season we're going to see Logan kill Dolores in front of William. I think this will explain a lot of different things. It will reveal the "revenge" that the MiB references to the soldiers. As well as mark the beginning of him overtaking the company. It will also explain MiB's reference to Dolores on "all they have been through." But more importantly, it will provide the MiB closure that Logan possibly stole from him 30 years ago. Would be very interesting to see if she would have flashbacks and begin to remember all her time with him from the past, as it is definitely buried down in there somewhere.

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Maybe. I could also see Ford stepping in and completely controlling Dolores. Making her betray Willilam.

I don't think Dolores dying will be what flip William. I think it will be this illusion he has of her being a real person getting completely pulled out from underneath him that will make him flip his attitude.

bangobango said:

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Vander said:

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bangobango said:

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Vander said:

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bobinator said:

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claym711 said:

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We have already seen that Delores has her own timeline separate from all others. I think that timeline is likely the 'present'

---

I think this timeline and the MiB/Teddy timeline are concurrent. So it's not really "her own" timeline.

Just for clarity for people who might not be following along as closely.

---

I agree on the timelines being concurrent. We've already seen that she has seen the MiB in her visions while she was with William, so clearly William is not the same person as the MiB.

---

No, that has not happened. Believe me, I tried like hell to verify that an it's not there. She sees the MIB right before meeting William.

---

You sure? I could have sworn that she saw him in one of her visions after she started changing. It makes no sense otherwise anyway because she is clearly moving beyond her programming so either they wiped her character completely and she regressed or they are happening at the same time.

---

Well, that last option (the wipe her character and she regressed) was a big reason I was arguing against the disparate story lines to begin with. It's going to make for a big let down at the end of this season when we learn Dolores had all this change thirty years ago, yet today she is still stuck in her loop.

As far as when she sees the MIB. She is in the barn with the host rapist and she flashes to the MIB standing over her. Then she pulls a gun out of the hayloft and shoots the host/rapist as a voice in her head says "Kill him."

She then flees the barn and gets shot by another member of the gang. Then it flashes back and she manages to avoid getting shot and jumps on a horse and rides away.

There is then a cut and the next time we see her she stumbles into William and Logan's camp and passes out.

Those who advocate the William as MIB say that between the barn scene and the camp scene we cut back thirty years to William and Logan timeline.

I went back and watched the first three or four episodes and have been on the lookout ever since. There is not real continuity break from the thirty years theory. I can't find one and I've been looking an watching for it very carefully.

---

That's the scene I was talking about. When she sees the MiB as her rapist, she then shoots the guy and begins having visions of past lives. We see her do this multiple times and see many versions of her previous lives, which in turn causes her to start acting differently.

The William = MiB people are reading WAY too much into the storyline. If it ultimately proves true, then this is LOST levels of convolution that will leave significant plot holes in the storyline.

The Willaim/Delores and MiB/Teddy storylines are concurrent.

AliasMan02 said:

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bobinator said:

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Maybe I worded that wrong.

For clarity:

Old: Dolores is with William in the past, also potentially the scenes we've seen with "Bernard" are actually Arnold.

Current: Everything else. Especially now that we finally had a Maeve crossover moment where she was near Theresa and Bernard. My theory on current Dolores is that the MiB did or said something to her in the barn in the first episode to send her on the old loop through the park, and she will be meeting up with them at the end of the loop. That's why I think we've seen her jump between timelines, people have disappeared from scenes, etc.

---

Agreed with the clarification that if the person talking to Delores in the underground maintenance room is Arnold and not Bernard, that is a third time period, because Arnold is dead (or his death has been faked or whatever) before Logan and William arrive.

The one thing that messes with me is what exactly is happening when Delores is in Pariah with William. The sequence of her being put to sleep by Ford during the parade seems... off.

---

Presumably her getting lost in the parade and grabbed by Ford are in the present timeline when she is traveling alone. That interview with Ford was 34 years after Arnold's death, and it was a little odd with Ford asking her if she was going off loop *again*, and if she was going to be the hero in this new story.

I am also starting to think that there is nobody at the center of the maze, but rather the center of the maze is a goal for the robots to try to obtain. Like a harbor or safe place that Arnold created for them and once they reach it they have free will and/or are free from Ford's control.

Vander said:

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bangobango said:

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Vander said:

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bangobango said:

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Vander said:

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bobinator said:

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claym711 said:

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We have already seen that Delores has her own timeline separate from all others. I think that timeline is likely the 'present'

---

I think this timeline and the MiB/Teddy timeline are concurrent. So it's not really "her own" timeline.

Just for clarity for people who might not be following along as closely.

---

I agree on the timelines being concurrent. We've already seen that she has seen the MiB in her visions while she was with William, so clearly William is not the same person as the MiB.

---

No, that has not happened. Believe me, I tried like hell to verify that an it's not there. She sees the MIB right before meeting William.

---

You sure? I could have sworn that she saw him in one of her visions after she started changing. It makes no sense otherwise anyway because she is clearly moving beyond her programming so either they wiped her character completely and she regressed or they are happening at the same time.

---

Well, that last option (the wipe her character and she regressed) was a big reason I was arguing against the disparate story lines to begin with. It's going to make for a big let down at the end of this season when we learn Dolores had all this change thirty years ago, yet today she is still stuck in her loop.

As far as when she sees the MIB. She is in the barn with the host rapist and she flashes to the MIB standing over her. Then she pulls a gun out of the hayloft and shoots the host/rapist as a voice in her head says "Kill him."

She then flees the barn and gets shot by another member of the gang. Then it flashes back and she manages to avoid getting shot and jumps on a horse and rides away.

There is then a cut and the next time we see her she stumbles into William and Logan's camp and passes out.

Those who advocate the William as MIB say that between the barn scene and the camp scene we cut back thirty years to William and Logan timeline.

I went back and watched the first three or four episodes and have been on the lookout ever since. There is not real continuity break from the thirty years theory. I can't find one and I've been looking an watching for it very carefully.

---

That's the scene I was talking about. When she sees the MiB as her rapist, she then shoots the guy and begins having visions of past lives. We see her do this multiple times and see many versions of her previous lives, which in turn causes her to start acting differently.

The William = MiB people are reading WAY too much into the storyline. If it ultimately proves true, then this is LOST levels of convolution that will leave significant plot holes in the storyline.

The Willaim/Delores and MiB/Teddy storylines are concurrent.

---

I felt the same way as you did a few weeks ago. Go read my early posts on this thread.

I'm convinced the other way now. There is too much that points to it being separate timelines to ignore. If they were concurrent timelines then you'd have at least ONE scene that disproves the separate timeline theory after this many episodes. And yet, we still don't have it.