dlance said:

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MW03 said:

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Also, did the board lady say bits been 30 years since the last critical failure or incident or something? Does that mean the hosts did some 4 years after Arnold's death, or do we think she was approximating?

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The lady and Bernard have both referenced the incident being 30 years ago. It is a big link to the MiB being there for the failure when he first went to the park.

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I dunno. Sometimes people round their numbers while Vulcans & robots get very specific.

dlance said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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Except we know Arnold died right before the park opened, and he died 34 years, 7 months, etc... ago.

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So there was 7-9 years of development that happened prior to the MiB ever setting foot in the park. There is no reason to think the hosts were not lifelike at that point. They were just mechanical rather than biological.

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We actually know this to be the case, based on what the MiB said about the million perfect pieces. The biological nature didn't improve immersion, he said. Purely profit.

Couple things:

1) after the first year they passed the Turing test; the Turing test is (essentially): can a robot mimic a human to the point humans can't differentiate.

2) They worked on them for a few years before the park opened. So we know for at least a couple years prior to opening the robots could trick humans.

Old bill is among the original creations, he may predate them passing the Turing test. Also, as has been mentioned repeatedly, he has been kept in a hot damp environment w/out repair, updates, maintnance for 30+ years.

I recently dug up my IPhone 3, it used to work like a champ. Last week it was slower than molasses, half the apps would not load, & I could not go online. In 2010(?) it worked great, now it struggles to turns on. Old Bill could be the same.

Maybe 30 years ago the hosts were perfect if you basically stayed on script, but had noticeable issues if you dramatically changed things. They struggled to adapt w/out re programming.

Now they are exponentially more adaptable/interchangeable. You can freely switch hosts out & guests can completely abandon the script: but the hosts just adapt relatively smoothly.

Final note: If you look outside the show itself (interviews, prior work, ect...) it's pretty clear they intend us to think its two distinct time lines. It could be all misdirection & smoke screen (Game of Thrones) but either it's two time lines, or they want the viewer to think its two time lines.

I'm not sold on the two timelines theory

1) its obvious the showrunners want us to believe it
2) when William is riding up the escalator in Ep. 2, take a look at who is at the top walking by.
3) when Dolores goes off her loop, the park notices, and sends someone to check on her and its William, there is no explanation of anyone else with her in the current time
4) Ford mentions that the board has already sent someone and they are in the park. Logan responds to William in Ep. 2 that "who says this trip is not business?" They could be the Deloss
5) While they are in Pariah, Ford makes Delores fall into a "deep and dreamless sleep" and lets her go on. It seems like real time.
6) One thing I noticed. The brand of whiskey Ford and MiB drink is "Lawrence"

My theory is that Deloss is intent on shutting the park down, and Ford knows it. He wants to protect his creation and is setting everything in motion to defend it. The new narrative is a cover. That's why he didn't let the other go forward.

However, it is obvious that something happened at the church 30 years ago, and MiB saved the park somehow. The church and that area has been buried (hence only the steeple remains). Now it seems that Ford is digging it up.

The only hard evidence of two timelines is the logo and the fact that William/Logan havent been seen with Mauve, MiB, Teddy, or Ford. Mauve and Teddy have both been out of commission at times.

The quick return of Lawrence in Pariah after being drained is somewhat convincing, but could there be two? MiB notices that the Lawrence he rescues from the noose "used to be much more eloquent." Also, Lawrence tells MiB that "Theodore Flood" was a maniac he knew rode with Wyatt. That's Teddy, confirmed when Ford calls him "Mr. Flood."

In short, I love this show.

Prediction: At some point this season while in William's timeline we will see Bernard as a character host. If they are going to reveal him as a host this is who I would do it.

It's Ford.

Has anyone on here told someone about this two timeline theory who didn't know about it before? Mentioned it to a buddy on Friday and today he said he went back and watched every episode.

Ok, I lied. I HAD to go back and look after you said that, and that is most definitely NOT Ford at the top of the steps. I paused and examined every conceivable shot and this is the only one where someone could MAYBE be mistaken for Ford, and it's just not him. Not the same walk, not the same body type, not the same person. That, and it's such an incredibly brief/random shot.

I swear, the more people argue against the two-timeline theory, the more convinced I am of it...

TCTTS said:

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2) when William is riding up the escalator in Ep. 2, take a look at who is at the top walking by.

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Can you just say who it is? I'm not going to go back through and look.

Overall, I get where you're coming from. I just think it would be a weird misdirect for the showrunners to kind of sort of WANT us to think there are two timelines if there aren't.

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Don't you think it would be kind of weird to not blatantly tell us there were two timelines? Would your enjoyment of the show be any different if the entrance of L&W was preceded by "30 years prior"? What is there to gain other than surprise for surprise sake?

I can't think of another movie or show that utilized two or more linear storylines set years apart that did not immediately tell us of when each was taking place.

I feel like it's a lazy way to "surprise" viewers personally. It complicates the story for unnecessary purpose and we're supposed to be "wowed" when they make a big reveal.

Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

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TCTTS said:

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2) when William is riding up the escalator in Ep. 2, take a look at who is at the top walking by.

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Can you just say who it is? I'm not going to go back through and look.

Overall, I get where you're coming from. I just think it would be a weird misdirect for the showrunners to kind of sort of WANT us to think there are two timelines if there aren't.

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Don't you think it would be kind of weird to not blatantly tell us there were two timelines? Would your enjoyment of the show be any different if the entrance of L&W was preceded by "30 years prior"? What is there to gain other than surprise for surprise sake?

I can't think of another movie or show that utilized two or more linear storylines set years apart that did not immediately tell us of when each was taking place.

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I don't think it's weird or trying to deceive the audience, it's creative storytelling. I think of it more as a puzzle you have to solve. I get bored with shows that hit you in the face with everything and spell it out for you. It's almost insulting because the writers don't think the audience is smart enough to pick up on the clues and figure it our for themselves. If everything was laid out chronologically and spelled out blatantly it would be much less entertaining

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I can't think of another movie or show that utilized two or more linear storylines set years apart that did not immediately tell us of when each was taking place.

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So... no points for originality? Isn't that all the more reason to try it?

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I feel like it's a lazy way to "surprise" viewers personally. It complicates the story for unnecessary purpose and we're supposed to be "wowed" when they make a big reveal.

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It would literally be the opposite of lazy. The lazy and uninventive way would be to tell the story linearly by making first season the story with William and Logan, set 30 years ago, make the second season the "present day" stuff, and so on. And the way they're (presumably) choosing to tell it isn't unnecessary, or strictly about the twist either. It's to make the story feel more grand and epic in that moment when the two timelines are revealed. Not only that, but it gives the show an immediate since of witnessed history without doing the cliched ***Here's comes a FLASHBACK*** edit we've seen a thousand times before.

Overall, this strategy is obviously far more effective simply because we've been discussing it ad nauseam for weeks now. I've never seen anything like this, and that's what I love about it.

Bingo. Very well said.

(I was typing my response as you were posting.)

Can't wait to break all this down tomorrow

Dolores storyline was really dragging for me -- this episode got me re-hooked.

Thandie Newton has so much to work with in this role. It has to be an actor/actress's dream.

What a departure from the previous episodes. But it was great.

Maeve is now my favorite character and I can't wait to see where she goes from here.

So much great stuff in this episode. Did anybody see which other hosts were on the "first generation" screen? I noticed Dolores, but I couldn't tell if Maeve was on there or not.

Things I learned:

1. I assumed that even the older hosts had been given new biological bodies and had their programming switched over, but it seems I was wrong. We now know the 87 Gen 1 hosts still in the park have different hardware than newer hosts, including the reveiver and a GPS cache, specifically. They get software/build updates (except for Ford's creeper family), but hardware is still the "million perfect pieces." I suppose that means that Delores is also mechanical.

2. I think it's important to note that the notebook that Ford looks through when doing his narrative design is Arnold's notebook. Arnold built Delores. Kind of an easy assumption, but confirmed.

3. When working on young Robert, Ford kept his clothes on. I thought that was interesting.

3rdGen2015 said:

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So much great stuff in this episode. Did anybody see which other hosts were on the "first generation" screen? I noticed Dolores, but I couldn't tell if Maeve was on there or not.

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I paused -- the three hosts they showed were Abel, Dolores and a black guy -- but not Bernard... Though the enough letters similar that I thought it might be an anagram (but it wasnt).

I think that and the underground level host with the black cowboy hat that was never shown in focus were just teases.

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the black cowboy hat that was never shown in focus

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It's been about a million years since I've seen Westworld, but that looked a lot like Yul Brynner in his MiB outfit.

free_mhayden said:

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I think that and the underground level host with the black cowboy hat that was never shown in focus were just teases.

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My first thought on that out-of-focus cowboy with the black outfit was that it was an homage to the Yul Brynner robot in the original 70s Westworld movie.

That was my same thought too, but hadn't seen any real references in the previous 5 episodes so didn't know if they were acknowledging it at all (even in easter-egg type way).

Ha, ha Oldarmy71. Great minds think alike!

Underground level 82 host in shadows looked like a car board cutout of Yul Bryner from the old movie.

Login screen on old system in the same scene had the logo from William and Logan era.

Arnold telling the kid to kill the dog so it couldn't hurt anyone anymore + comments on how Arnold designed Pariah because he "didn't think much of people"= some bad, bad things going to happen to humans.