claym711 said:

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Logan definitely had a smirk/smile when William abandoned him.

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I think it was just self satisfaction that he was right about William.

I think Arnold figured out a way to upload his consciousness into a host. And he did so into one side of Delores' bicameral mind.

Love the show.

1. While watching episodes 2 & 3 I assumed William was the MIB from 30 years prior and did not realize there was even a question before coming on this board. I could not have pointed to anything specific, however the "eye test" said the director was very strongly pushing that narrative.

2. Having read this thread (and a couple other websites) I think there were good in show arguments both for and against separate time lines/William is MIB; however, nothing conclusive. Really nothing to show greater than 50% certainty either way.

3. After episode 5 I feel fairly confident, with only in show evidence, we are seeing separate time lines & William is related to, or is, the MIB.

4. Taking the show in its entirety; looking at the full body of work of the producers, writers, & directors; reading some of the interviews with the producers, writers, & directors; I think we can very confidently say there are two separate time lines. Taking everything together it would be a bigger twist to have these events occurring concurrently than separately.

5. The director is doing a masterful job of executing this vision.

6. I have no idea about any of management being hosts, but I hope they are all human. I have watched the "are the characters robot or human" narrative before & do not find it very compelling. If they go that route hopefully they can do it in a new and interesting way. I imagine they can.

A) Wild Bill is one of the oldest models and his design/programming may predate the robots passing the Turing Test. Moreover, he has been stored in a hot wet environment for X years & may have degraded significantly. In his prime, he may have been about as convincing as any "modern" host.

B) One of the major themes (very inarticulately stated) is at what point does something gain consciousness, when is something alive, when does a machine become a person? We as an audience know this. The characters do not. To them these are very life like Siri's or Cortana's. I do not think the MIB is a "villain" because he runs around smashing life like robots. I do not think William is a "hero" because he feels guilty about shooting robots. As has been said before, until the robots gain true consciousness and can break their programming I do not see anything insidious about the park or its guests; however, I can not wait for the robot revolution.

C) As far as robots who know they are robots, I think those would be the easiest to control. Just program them to be subservient and "want" to do everything they can to help.

Bayside Tiger Ag said:

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I think Arnold figured out a way to upload his consciousness into a host. And he did so into one side of Delores' bicameral mind.

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I love this idea, and thought something similar. I had not considered the bicameral mind aspect, I just supposed Arnold had uploaded his consciousness in to hosts.

Based on MiB's willingness gut Ford, it makes me more suspicious that Ford is a host. Either his consciousness uploaded or a programmed clone. I think the child host Ford is a clue to this Makes me think Ford wants to be a god, immortality and complete power, and he had to kill Arnold to realize that vision. Now the MiB and Delores are trying to bring him down on Arnold's behalf.

For those having problems with the 30 year difference being the hosts don't seem anything like Old Bill, you have to consider that he likely hasn't been repaired and maintained at all over the last 30 years, and that could be why his movements aren't as fluid.

As far as multiple timelines go, I still think the Bernard and Dolores encounters could wind up be the most interesting in that respect. I've held true all season that I believe Bernard is indeed a host, but where this becomes interesting is considering if he has always been a host. I want to go back and rewatch all the encounters with him and Dolores to see if anything jumps out, but at this point, I'm entertaining the idea that perhaps Bernard is a recreation of Arnold that Ford had made. Where this becomes very interesting is the fact that maybe these talks he's having with Dolores are not only in the past, but also back when he was human. And what we're seeing is the original encounters that perhaps unlocked or created the bicameral mind within Dolores.

The White Wolf said:

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For those having problems with the 30 year difference being the hosts don't seem anything like Old Bill, you have to consider that he likely hasn't been repaired and maintained at all over the last 30 years, and that could be why his movements aren't as fluid.

As far as multiple timelines go, I still think the Bernard and Dolores encounters could wind up be the most interesting in that respect. I've held true all season that I believe Bernard is indeed a host, but where this becomes interesting is considering if he has always been a host. I want to go back and rewatch all the encounters with him and Dolores to see if anything jumps out, but at this point, I'm entertaining the idea that perhaps Bernard is a recreation of Arnold that Ford had made. Where this becomes very interesting is the fact that maybe these talks he's having with Dolores are not only in the past, but also back when he was human. And what we're seeing is the original encounters that perhaps unlocked or created the bicameral mind within Dolores.

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It's not just his movements. He's not able to really carry on a conversation, either.

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Based on MiB's willingness gut Ford, it makes me more suspicious that Ford is a host. Either his consciousness uploaded or a programmed clone.

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This occurred to me as well when this last episode refers to the MiB cutting open robots previously, and we have seen him do it and threaten it in earlier episodes.

I noticed that Ford references his "father" twice in this episode.

Maybe the Oedipal struggle/revolution has already occurred, and Ford killed his creator and became the god of his world.

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For those having problems with the 30 year difference being the hosts don't seem anything like Old Bill, you have to consider that he likely hasn't been repaired and maintained at all over the last 30 years, and that could be why his movements aren't as fluid.

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It's not just his movements. He's not able to really carry on a conversation, either.

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This is another thing that I don't see how people are getting hung up on it so much. The old bartender has been literally sitting on a shelf with neither his hardware nor his software being maintained and upgraded, it's no surprise he's gone glitchy.

I think the ending of this episode more or less confirmed the multiple timeline theory. In Dolores' last scene where she says "I'm coming," William and Lawrence have disappeared from the train car. So she's obviously both in the train car in the past with them, and in the train car in the present without them.

I think at the end, with whatever disaster is going to befall them, William is more or less going to agree not to tell that outside world what happened in exchange for some sort of increased stake in the park or something. That's why he gets whatever he wants no matter what happens, and he keeps coming back in search of that spark he saw the first time (that he helped them escape from by not telling the world what happened.)

Here's a question I have though, are we certain that the MiB raped/assaulted/etc Dolores in the first episode? We see him drag her in the barn and close the door and her screaming, but after they're in there, he could have said something that activated something in her to send her out to do whatever it is he's hoping she does.

Like I said in the previous post, it looks like she's reenacting the same loop in the present that she did in the past, so maybe the MiB plans to meet her along the way? Or at "the maze," whatever it might be.

Yeah I agree completely in the respect. The hosts around William and Logan seem leaps and bounds more capable than Old Bill. But maybe that's just because they've kept it within the storylines for the most part in their encounters, and when Ford is talking with him, it's never relating to Old Bill's original purpose. Only thing I feel like you could argue it with. Maybe that's enough, but it doesn't seem like it.

I completely agree with this line of thought. The two scenes and different angles don't line up and it appears as if she is there in another time. There have been several scenes where she is alone and it appears she may be in a different timeline than with William. Like when she has her vision of the new storyline after seeing the fortune teller. This could be her in the present time as she hass made her way back to Pariah on her own. She quite possibly could have gotten off her path and found her way back on the search for the maze. This also adds up with her returning because Teddy's job was to keep her there and keep her from going off her path, yet with the new storyline, he is no longer there to do so. This could even go as far back as her visions in the town with the well. As well as when in the control room (which seemed like the present), they mention Dolores being off course, but they never mention that she's with William at this time. This may have been her going off course on her own in the present.

All these jumps around for Dolores are not even uncommon as from episode 2 we've seen her kind of bounce around on flashbacks and second guessing what is truly happening in that specific loop.

bangobango said:

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The White Wolf said:

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For those having problems with the 30 year difference being the hosts don't seem anything like Old Bill, you have to consider that he likely hasn't been repaired and maintained at all over the last 30 years, and that could be why his movements aren't as fluid.

As far as multiple timelines go, I still think the Bernard and Dolores encounters could wind up be the most interesting in that respect. I've held true all season that I believe Bernard is indeed a host, but where this becomes interesting is considering if he has always been a host. I want to go back and rewatch all the encounters with him and Dolores to see if anything jumps out, but at this point, I'm entertaining the idea that perhaps Bernard is a recreation of Arnold that Ford had made. Where this becomes very interesting is the fact that maybe these talks he's having with Dolores are not only in the past, but also back when he was human. And what we're seeing is the original encounters that perhaps unlocked or created the bicameral mind within Dolores.

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It's not just his movements. He's not able to really carry on a conversation, either.

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I understand why so many people are hung up on this, but in my eyes they already explained this. Ford said it took them a year of development to be able to pass the Turing Test. Old Bill clearly doesn't pass the Turing Test, so this just means that he was one of the first ones built and that they quickly advanced the tech past this point.

TCTTS said:

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I could see William dying somehow, before they reach the maze, and that changing Logan just a bit. Becomes an assh*le with a purpose, instead of just an assh*le, and it obviously still fits in with the corporation/foundation connection. And yeah, Logan roughing up Delores in the barn does make a bit more sense.

That said, we're obviously watching William slowly change in the midst of a character arc, and there has to be a reason for that. Given enough time and years, I could see him becoming this hardened old man immune to the charms of the park, and even Delores.

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I think the latter is more likely. Logan already has that MIB mindset, so it wouldn't be much of a story to watch him just play the game for 30 years. But watching William transform from a white hat into a black hat would be much more interesting. I think his feelings for Delores are blinding him to the fact that she is using him to further her own interests and once he figures that out it sets him on a path to becoming the MIB. Also, William and MIB both have blue eyes, Logan's are brown.

I think falling in love with her and then her having her mind erased and not remembering him is going to be what causes him not to care about the emotions of anyone/anything inside the park anymore. After that he'll just consider everything in there as a machine. I also think he's going to kill Logan.

It would probably be a little on the nose, but I could see him shooting Logan and then putting on Logan's black hat as a final scene of the season or something.

My thoughts exactly. She won't remember him after one of her dreams or on his return visit and that will flip the switch.

funny you say that. Does anyone think that perhaps that's what happened with Ford and Dolores? That scene with them when she asks if they are "very old friends" and Ford responds with "No I wouldn't say that Dolores... I wouldn't say that at all." The look on Ford's face is not one of disdain or anything like one would maybe draw from that line alone. He looks extremely upset as he remembers the past. Almost heartbroken. Would be interesting to see that Ford had once fallen for her and it ending tragically. Perhaps that is what solidified him in never making the mistake of assuming the hosts are real ever again. Possibility of even Arnold playing a role in there as well.

3rdGen2015 said:

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bangobango said:

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The White Wolf said:

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For those having problems with the 30 year difference being the hosts don't seem anything like Old Bill, you have to consider that he likely hasn't been repaired and maintained at all over the last 30 years, and that could be why his movements aren't as fluid.

As far as multiple timelines go, I still think the Bernard and Dolores encounters could wind up be the most interesting in that respect. I've held true all season that I believe Bernard is indeed a host, but where this becomes interesting is considering if he has always been a host. I want to go back and rewatch all the encounters with him and Dolores to see if anything jumps out, but at this point, I'm entertaining the idea that perhaps Bernard is a recreation of Arnold that Ford had made. Where this becomes very interesting is the fact that maybe these talks he's having with Dolores are not only in the past, but also back when he was human. And what we're seeing is the original encounters that perhaps unlocked or created the bicameral mind within Dolores.

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It's not just his movements. He's not able to really carry on a conversation, either.

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I understand why so many people are hung up on this, but in my eyes they already explained this. Ford said it took them a year of development to be able to pass the Turing Test. Old Bill clearly doesn't pass the Turing Test, so this just means that he was one of the first ones built and that they quickly advanced the tech past this point.

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Maybe.

It's cheating though. They're showing that robot to show us how far the robots have come. They've talked incessantly about how much more realistic the robots are now compared to in the past. They've even given us an example of that in Bill. And they've made it sound like it's been a gradual process of development and refinement leading up to this latest update, not that 34 years ago they all looked and acted like Bill and then BAM there's this huge technological jump and now they look and act like real humans, and that's how they've been for thirty years.

There are going to be a lot of people who are not happy about that if it is in fact two timelines. I can get over it, but it really is cheating. If there's been a gradual buildup to the robots becoming so lifelike, then they shouldn't be indistinguishable thirty years ago from today. Just like you could recognize the difference between a thirty year old cellphone and an iphone, you should be able to recognize the difference between the robots thirty years ago and the robots today.

And if they do go that route, then it feels like they're just showing us Bill to throw us off the scent, so to speak.

The White Wolf said:

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funny you say that. Does anyone think that perhaps that's what happened with Ford and Dolores? That scene with them when she asks if they are "very old friends" and Ford responds with "No I wouldn't say that Dolores... I wouldn't say that at all." The look on Ford's face is not one of disdain or anything like one would maybe draw from that line alone. He looks extremely upset as he remembers the past. Almost heartbroken. Would be interesting to see that Ford had once fallen for her and it ending tragically. Perhaps that is what solidified him in never making the mistake of assuming the hosts are real ever again. Possibility of even Arnold playing a role in there as well.

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Definitely something weird going on with them. Thought it was interesting that he told her that she was in "his dream" and not her own, as we've seen Bernard do with her.

Also, the way he asks her if she remembers the "man he used to be" and then the camera pans behind her head and you almost expect Hopkin's to have a different or younger face or something, and then he says something about Arnold to her. Kind of gives the vibe that Ford's words mean something more than just the obvious.

I don't think that's really cheating. We've seen newer models (the sherrif, the father) start having glitching issues and have to be put in storage. In fact, that's why they're put in storage in the first place. If Bill worked like he was supposed to, he'd probably still be in the park like the rest of them.

I don't think that's a huge misdirection.

Having Ford be a host would be a huge misdirection because we've actually seen a younger version of him.

The guys on The Watch podcast this week had a quick mention of a theory as to why Ford says they're not friends and it's because she basically might be the Neo to his Architect, and he knows it. He can't decommission her for whatever reason (important code or something), but he's trying to stop her from reaching the maze by other means.

There has to be something to that or he would just put her down in livestock with the rest of the malfunctioning hosts. That would fit in nicely with the "she's done this several times" thing.

The more I think about it, the more I think the interview room where we see Bernard and Ford talk to Delores is digital. One of the butchers talked about VR during his break, so we know that's a thing. It also kinda lines up with the concept that "this is a dream." It solves some logistical problems as well.

Does anyone who is being physically examined do the "this is a dream" exchange? Maybe Delores in the first episode when talking to Stubbs with others in the room?

This would make so much sense, and you're right, would explain away the logistics/covertness of it all. I just keep waiting for Bernard to get caught when he's meeting with Delores, but if it was all digital/VR, seems much easier to get away with it. And yeah, the "dream" thing would make way more sense too.

AliasMan02 said:

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The more I think about it, the more I think the interview room where we see Bernard and Ford talk to Delores is digital. One of the butchers talked about VR during his break, so we know that's a thing. It also kinda lines up with the concept that "this is a dream." It solves some logistical problems as well.

Does anyone who is being physically examined do the "this is a dream" exchange? Maybe Delores in the first episode when talking to Stubbs with others in the room?

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Don't Dolores and Ford have that exchange in this episode? Ford takes and examines Dolores' hand during that scene. Or is this exchange different logistically because Ford says "no, actually this is my dream"?

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Does anyone who is being physically examined do the "this is a dream" exchange? Maybe Delores in the first episode when talking to Stubbs with others in the room?

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The dream exchange happens every time. It happens twice in the first episode as a Bernard Dolores voiceover, and then "I'm in a dream" again at the end of the epsiode when Stubbs interviews her in the behavior labs and she gives him the same answers.

They are "in a dream" any time they interview them outside of the park. It doesnt indicate a digital experience.

Random question:

Is the bird repair guy the same one who put the sheet over one of the host's body that got Ford so pissed off and made him cut the host's face to show him they're not real?

I've liked this theory also, but it creates some issues. Like, if they can basically have a digital meetings with the host to diagnose problems, they could have done that with the wood chopping guy going rogue before he almost killed someone.

Unless it's a feature distinct to Dolores?

I've assumed the "in a dream" bit is just a test question to make sure the host isn't processing that it's actually out of the park since they aren't supposed to know about anything outside of the park.

Also the "laser thing in the arm" is going to be an interesting direction for all of this. We haven't even really talked about that much since it doesn't seem all that important at the moment.

Yes. Really liking this from you and Alias. Not only would it solve some logistics problems but would also explain her talking to herself after Ford leaves. If that conversation was in a virtual space, it would make sense for Dolores to be talking aloud to Arnold after Ford leaves the room. If this digital VR space exists... that's definitely where Arnold will be.

The White Wolf said:

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Yes. Really liking this from you and Alias. Not only would it solve some logistics problems but would also explain her talking to herself after Ford leaves. If that conversation was in a virtual space, it would make sense for Dolores to be talking aloud to Arnold after Ford leaves the room. If this digital VR space exists... that's definitely where Arnold will be.

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I forgot to mention that. If the room is a physical location, it seems impossible that she could continue to talk to herself/Arnold and not be overheard/observed.

I'm not 100 percent on this or anything. Just looking for the theory that fits the clues.

AliasMan02 said:

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The White Wolf said:

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Yes. Really liking this from you and Alias. Not only would it solve some logistics problems but would also explain her talking to herself after Ford leaves. If that conversation was in a virtual space, it would make sense for Dolores to be talking aloud to Arnold after Ford leaves the room. If this digital VR space exists... that's definitely where Arnold will be.

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I forgot to mention that. If the room is a physical location, it seems impossible that she could continue to talk to herself/Arnold and not be overheard/observed.

I'm not 100 percent on this or anything. Just looking for the theory that fits the clues.

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On the flip side of that, it could be that every time she is speaking to Arnold she is inside of her own mind speaking to the other half of her bicameral mind. This could account for why William and Lawrence disappear from the train scene.

bobinator said:

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Also the "laser thing in the arm" is going to be an interesting direction for all of this. We haven't even really talked about that much since it doesn't seem all that important at the moment.

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I've wondered about that in terms of the MiB. We've seen him attack Delores and Maeve with a knife, assuming that he is raping them, but what if he is cutting things out of them or modifying in some way. More deliberate surgery like with Kissy, getting answers.

The Hosts in MiB's orbit all seem to be special in some way. Teddy is key to the new narrative. Delores and Maeve hear the voice and seem to have control over their memories/subconscious. Kissy has the map. Lawrence's family led him to the river. Etc.

This might be oversimplifying things, but I almost felt like she said the bit outloud after Ford left just so the audience would know for sure that she was lying.

bobinator said:

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This might be oversimplifying things, but I almost felt like she said the bit outloud after Ford left just so the audience would know for sure that she was lying.

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I struggle with that sort of thing, too. I feel like every detail in the show is very important and deliberate, but also worry that I'm also reading too much into it.