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*** WESTWORLD Season 1 (HBO) ***
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Last: 7 yr ago by Sazerac
another angry ag said:
Don't have too much to add, but one of the Podcasts I listen to that covers the show stated that the Nolan brothers have trouble 'sticking the landing'. Loving the show so far.
I haven't watched Person of Interest, so I can't attest to their abilities when it comes to a series, but I'll take it a step beyond TC and say that based on the endings of TDK, Inception, Prestige, Memento, and Following... these guys are some of the best in the business at 'sticking the landing'.Quote:
Except that the endings to The Dark Knight and Inception are literally two of my all time favorite endings to any movies ever. Granted, with TDKR's and Interstellar's endings, there's a lot to be desired, but I think overall the Nolan's are better than most at that kind of stuff.
Disclaimer: I even liked Interstellar.
Maybe, but it's all a lot more complicated than that.bobinator said:
Is it though? Dolores' plot has to play out, but it's not like they have an entire web of plotlines tied between William and Logan and the present, only Dolores.
Let's hypothetically say William is the MiB (which the fact that he's called the MiB and doesn't have a name is the biggest reason why I think he could be William), in a current timeline scene, the MiB could walk into a room with Ford, and Ford could say "Hello... William" and that would pretty much be that right?
For example, this past episode we see them talking about Dolores being off her loop and they send another Host to go take her back to her home. Then William shows up and tells the host she is with him and to get lost. So now, you're saying that the scenes we see in the control room are also taking place thirty years before. Now we have to parse out what happened thirty years earlier and what is happening today.
We have this development of Dolores that appears that she is coming to some sort of self-realization, only to find out that she was really having these weird and new thoughts thirty years earlier? And nothing came of them for thirty years?
And that's not to even mention issues like replacing her father with the bartender. If you are going to jump around in time, then it starts getting hard to keep up with who is who. Is the guy who was just shot her current father, or was it her father thirty years ago? And why isn't Dolores obviously robotic like the Wild Bill bartender Ford had drinks with in episode one? Why even introduce the concept that the robots have become more and more real just to take us back thirty years and show us all the same robots looking just the same as the current day robots? Why tell us Dolores has been repaired so many times she practically brand new and then show her looking and acting the same as she does currently?
Why tell us these robots operate on loops with little deviation, then show us a major event where a robot deviate sharply from her loop, and then cut back thirty years to show us another time when this robot deviated greatly from her loop? Is something significant happening right now in the park or has this all been done before?
Why tell us that all the robots have played many different roles, and then show us thirty years before with all the robots playing the exact same roles?
Why show us Maeve as a homesteader getting scalped by Indians (and the man in black) and then show Maeve meeting William thirty years earlier as a hooker? Was she a hooker, then a homestead, and then a hooker again? Seems kind of silly, doesn't it?
Then show us another hooker who you had an entire scene with between her and Bernard with Bernard explaining to his assistant how the new update makes these robots even MORE lifelike, and then show that hooker interacting with William thirty years earlier seeming EXACTLY the same as she did thirty years before?
I mean, does it matter who the bartender is or who her father is? The hosts can be different roles all the time so what does that particular role really matter unless they're central to the plot of the show?
And all of those things you bring up are, in my opinion, the entire point. It's a big cycle, and the only two people are truly outside of the cycle are Ford and the MiB. Like Maeve's "waking up" only to realize that she's drawn the figures before, I think all of it loops back around, but something is finally going to be different this time.
And, we haven't actually seen Maeve as a homesteader, only her remembering that she was homesteader, which is potentially an important distinction. The fact that those flashbacks have a sort of dream feel about them like Teddy's flashbacks to Wyatt's story make me think they aren't actually real, they could have been programmed in.
As for the robots, we have no idea how long ago the "Wild Bill" bartender was in operation, but we know that he's been out of operation a long time. It's like starting up an old truck that's been continously looked after vs one that hasn't been touched in 20 years. With constant attention, the older robots like Dolores run just fine.
Anyway, we'll find out soon enough I imagine. The William/Dolores and the MiB/Ford plots can't go forever without running into each other somehow.
And all of those things you bring up are, in my opinion, the entire point. It's a big cycle, and the only two people are truly outside of the cycle are Ford and the MiB. Like Maeve's "waking up" only to realize that she's drawn the figures before, I think all of it loops back around, but something is finally going to be different this time.
And, we haven't actually seen Maeve as a homesteader, only her remembering that she was homesteader, which is potentially an important distinction. The fact that those flashbacks have a sort of dream feel about them like Teddy's flashbacks to Wyatt's story make me think they aren't actually real, they could have been programmed in.
As for the robots, we have no idea how long ago the "Wild Bill" bartender was in operation, but we know that he's been out of operation a long time. It's like starting up an old truck that's been continously looked after vs one that hasn't been touched in 20 years. With constant attention, the older robots like Dolores run just fine.
Anyway, we'll find out soon enough I imagine. The William/Dolores and the MiB/Ford plots can't go forever without running into each other somehow.
Here is my timeline of days inside the park as I understand them...
Day 1 - Dolores meets Teddy in town (he picks up her can). Dolores and Teddy are present when Rebus' bandits attack Abernathy Ranch for the benefit of the MIB.
Day 2 - Dolores meets the MIB in town, who picks up her can and goes to play poker. Teddy gets taken as a guide by a group of guests. Guests take the sheriff out to look for Escaton. Dolores' father finds the photograph. The sheriff malfunctions. MIB kidnaps the poker dealer.
Day 3 - Dolores finds her father malfunctioning. Hector Escaton rides into town, Teddy is killed, Escaton is shot by a guest. Dolores gets shut down by Elsie. MIB scalps the poker dealer.
Day 4 - Dolores has a new father, kills a fly. The MIB rescues and kidnaps Lawrence. Teddy gets killed by outlaws at the brothel.
Day 4? - William and Logan arrive in town. They have dinner and spend the evening with Logan boning a bunch of hosts
Day 5 - Teddy gets together with a random female guest. They blow away a group of bounties in the street, before heading to the brothel. Dolores' can is picked up by Teddy. Dolores and Teddy end up dead at Abernathy Ranch. Sometime on day 4 or 5 is the MIB's interrogation of Lawrence and his daughter at Las Mudas.
Day 5? - William saves Clementine from Horace. William decides to become a bounty hunter
Day 6 - Teddy has a new backstory. Dolores is accosted by the bandits in town. Teddy rides off with the female guest from Day 5 to go after Wyatt and is attacked by the group in the wilderness. Dolores runs away from a bandit showdown at Abernathy Ranch. At some point in day 5 or 6 MIB meets Armistice and breaks Escaton out of prison.
Day 6? - Dolores ends up in William and Logan's bounty hunter camp after running away
Some thoughts
On Day 4 and 5 both Teddy and William are theoretically bumping around Sweetwater but their paths never cross. Both are at the brothel, and both have shootouts in the street. William and Logan are not asked whether they want to go look for Escaton, its something different involving soldiers. Seems like Teddy should be on the train that brings William and Logan in. He died the previous night, he's got no excuse to be off in the park already.
The only connection between the normal present day storylines (Dolores, Teddy, Maeve, MIB) and William is that Dolores runs off in one scene and shows up at Williams camp in the next, implying a chronological connection.
However, through Dolores' flashbacks we know that these Abernathy Ranch raids have been happening over and over again and its been bleeding into her memories. It's possible she's run away hundreds of times. Ford tells Teddy when he gives him his new backstory that his job is not to protect Dolores or be with her, but to "keep her here." Basically Teddy's job is to stop Dolores from getting away, so maybe Dolores has repeatedly run away in the past.
We see Teddy get killed basically 5 times in 7 days. Ford tells him that he's died a thousand times, which I guess could just be rhetorical inaccurate guesstimate (or lazy writing), but if truthful Teddy might be a pretty young host with the death rate we've seen him subject to if he's only died a thousand times. Thats maybe only like 5 years worth of deaths at the rate he's been going.
Day 1 - Dolores meets Teddy in town (he picks up her can). Dolores and Teddy are present when Rebus' bandits attack Abernathy Ranch for the benefit of the MIB.
Day 2 - Dolores meets the MIB in town, who picks up her can and goes to play poker. Teddy gets taken as a guide by a group of guests. Guests take the sheriff out to look for Escaton. Dolores' father finds the photograph. The sheriff malfunctions. MIB kidnaps the poker dealer.
Day 3 - Dolores finds her father malfunctioning. Hector Escaton rides into town, Teddy is killed, Escaton is shot by a guest. Dolores gets shut down by Elsie. MIB scalps the poker dealer.
Day 4 - Dolores has a new father, kills a fly. The MIB rescues and kidnaps Lawrence. Teddy gets killed by outlaws at the brothel.
Day 4? - William and Logan arrive in town. They have dinner and spend the evening with Logan boning a bunch of hosts
Day 5 - Teddy gets together with a random female guest. They blow away a group of bounties in the street, before heading to the brothel. Dolores' can is picked up by Teddy. Dolores and Teddy end up dead at Abernathy Ranch. Sometime on day 4 or 5 is the MIB's interrogation of Lawrence and his daughter at Las Mudas.
Day 5? - William saves Clementine from Horace. William decides to become a bounty hunter
Day 6 - Teddy has a new backstory. Dolores is accosted by the bandits in town. Teddy rides off with the female guest from Day 5 to go after Wyatt and is attacked by the group in the wilderness. Dolores runs away from a bandit showdown at Abernathy Ranch. At some point in day 5 or 6 MIB meets Armistice and breaks Escaton out of prison.
Day 6? - Dolores ends up in William and Logan's bounty hunter camp after running away
Some thoughts
On Day 4 and 5 both Teddy and William are theoretically bumping around Sweetwater but their paths never cross. Both are at the brothel, and both have shootouts in the street. William and Logan are not asked whether they want to go look for Escaton, its something different involving soldiers. Seems like Teddy should be on the train that brings William and Logan in. He died the previous night, he's got no excuse to be off in the park already.
The only connection between the normal present day storylines (Dolores, Teddy, Maeve, MIB) and William is that Dolores runs off in one scene and shows up at Williams camp in the next, implying a chronological connection.
However, through Dolores' flashbacks we know that these Abernathy Ranch raids have been happening over and over again and its been bleeding into her memories. It's possible she's run away hundreds of times. Ford tells Teddy when he gives him his new backstory that his job is not to protect Dolores or be with her, but to "keep her here." Basically Teddy's job is to stop Dolores from getting away, so maybe Dolores has repeatedly run away in the past.
We see Teddy get killed basically 5 times in 7 days. Ford tells him that he's died a thousand times, which I guess could just be rhetorical inaccurate guesstimate (or lazy writing), but if truthful Teddy might be a pretty young host with the death rate we've seen him subject to if he's only died a thousand times. Thats maybe only like 5 years worth of deaths at the rate he's been going.
Again, the bartender and Dolores' new father are NOT the same host. Two different actors.
And we haven't seen Maeve in any William scenes yet. She could be a homesteader at that point in the park.
And we haven't seen Maeve in any William scenes yet. She could be a homesteader at that point in the park.
wikipedia says the bartender and new abernathy are played by Bradford Tatum
IMDb lists Bradley Fisher as the bartender
That's a different bartender. Fisher is the Mariposa bartender (where the MiB shoots up Lawrence's wife).
The Sweetwater bartender from episode one is the new Abernathy, but again I don't know what difference that makes to anything really.
The Sweetwater bartender from episode one is the new Abernathy, but again I don't know what difference that makes to anything really.
Isn't Mariposa the name of the saloon in Sweetwater?
That's a pretty good timeline. I don't think it necessarily all takes place in six or seven days. I think there could be cuts where we jump ahead a week or two. You could probably track it by tracking when the Hector gang shows up. I think hey say how long Hector's loop is supposed to take.JJxvi said:
Here is my timeline of days inside the park as I understand them...
Day 1 - Dolores meets Teddy in town (he picks up her can). Dolores and Teddy are present when Rebus' bandits attack Abernathy Ranch for the benefit of the MIB.
Day 2 - Dolores meets the MIB in town, who picks up her can and goes to play poker. Teddy gets taken as a guide by a group of guests. Guests take the sheriff out to look for Escaton. Dolores' father finds the photograph. The sheriff malfunctions. MIB kidnaps the poker dealer.
Day 3 - Dolores finds her father malfunctioning. Hector Escaton rides into town, Teddy is killed, Escaton is shot by a guest. Dolores gets shut down by Elsie. MIB scalps the poker dealer.
Day 4 - Dolores has a new father, kills a fly. The MIB rescues and kidnaps Lawrence. Teddy gets killed by outlaws at the brothel.
Day 4? - William and Logan arrive in town. They have dinner and spend the evening with Logan boning a bunch of hosts
Day 5 - Teddy gets together with a random female guest. They blow away a group of bounties in the street, before heading to the brothel. Dolores' can is picked up by Teddy. Dolores and Teddy end up dead at Abernathy Ranch. Sometime on day 4 or 5 is the MIB's interrogation of Lawrence and his daughter at Las Mudas.
Day 5? - William saves Clementine from Horace. William decides to become a bounty hunter
Day 6 - Teddy has a new backstory. Dolores is accosted by the bandits in town. Teddy rides off with the female guest from Day 5 to go after Wyatt and is attacked by the group in the wilderness. Dolores runs away from a bandit showdown at Abernathy Ranch. At some point in day 5 or 6 MIB meets Armistice and breaks Escaton out of prison.
Day 6? - Dolores ends up in William and Logan's bounty hunter camp after running away
Some thoughts
On Day 4 and 5 both Teddy and William are theoretically bumping around Sweetwater but their paths never cross. Both are at the brothel, and both have shootouts in the street. William and Logan are not asked whether they want to go look for Escaton, its something different involving soldiers. Seems like Teddy should be on the train that brings William and Logan in. He died the previous night, he's got no excuse to be off in the park already.
The only connection between the normal present day storylines (Dolores, Teddy, Maeve, MIB) and William is that Dolores runs off in one scene and shows up at Williams camp in the next, implying a chronological connection.
However, through Dolores' flashbacks we know that these Abernathy Ranch raids have been happening over and over again and its been bleeding into her memories. It's possible she's run away hundreds of times. Ford tells Teddy when he gives him his new backstory that his job is not to protect Dolores or be with her, but to "keep her here." Basically Teddy's job is to stop Dolores from getting away, so maybe Dolores has repeatedly run away in the past.
We see Teddy get killed basically 5 times in 7 days. Ford tells him that he's died a thousand times, which I guess could just be rhetorical inaccurate guesstimate (or lazy writing), but if truthful Teddy might be a pretty young host with the death rate we've seen him subject to if he's only died a thousand times. Thats maybe only like 5 years worth of deaths at the rate he's been going.
It's obviously the same guy if you just watch the show. I don't care what IMDB says. It's not like IMDB is never wrong.3rdGen2015 said:
Isn't Mariposa the name of the saloon in Sweetwater?
I think I get what happens after Dolores runs away. She has a meeting with Bernard like right before all this happens. Bernard misses a call from Elsie while dealing with the stray because he's dealing with Dolores and its implied that he leaves her with blooming consciousness rather than changing her back as he considers doing.
Then after that convo all the **** goes down, and she runs away and ends up back with Bernard. I dont think Bernard pulls her out of the park while she's with William, they go to each other immediately. The William thing does happn in another timeframe.
Then after that convo all the **** goes down, and she runs away and ends up back with Bernard. I dont think Bernard pulls her out of the park while she's with William, they go to each other immediately. The William thing does happn in another timeframe.
I agree, and Ive thought that too.bangobango said:
That's a pretty good timeline. I don't think it necessarily all takes place in six or seven days. I think there could be cuts where we jump ahead a week or two. You could probably track it by tracking when the Hector gang shows up. I think hey say how long Hector's loop is supposed to take.
However, there is overlap with guests. Maybe the MIB takes an extra long vacation, but its clearly all happening within his time there, and his motions, as well as the guests being the same in day 2 and 3, and in 5 and 6 imply that this kind of is all happening in short spans of days. MIB picking up Dolores' can for instance, its pretty much implied that he knows he just saw her last night but she doesnt remember.
Hector I think attacks the town twice in a very short space of time. Once they made it happen, and second time MIB made it happen.
I have to admit I cannot find a smoking bullet that disproves the William is MIB.
I think the strongest evidence against it is showing the security guy saying to flag Dolores and then somebody goes to get her. Plus, that little scene with the girl right before that happens leads me to believe that Dolores has another role that she played at some point that will be later revealed.
I think the strongest evidence against it is showing the security guy saying to flag Dolores and then somebody goes to get her. Plus, that little scene with the girl right before that happens leads me to believe that Dolores has another role that she played at some point that will be later revealed.
The room where Bernard and Dolores meet repeatedly Im calling the maintenance shed in my head. It seems to me that its some kind of park back room thats physically inside the town of sweetwater rather than at HQ
Think that room might be in her mind? It looks like it's a clean room inside an old building.
Unless they check in before her loop like when she's in town before she drops the evaporated milk.
Unless they check in before her loop like when she's in town before she drops the evaporated milk.
My buddy suggested the room was virtual. Don't like that at all. It suggests that it's either not really Bernard meeting with her, or that There are lines of communications open to the hosts that they don't even bother to use ever except in this one case. Every other time, they physically go get them to talk with them or even shut them down.
Something's up with that room, that much I know. There's no way a place like that goes unmonitored or undisturbed.
Where do we stand on this show? Greatest ever? GoT killer?
Very splendid!!! SUCH SPlENdor you have!!!dlance said:retribution_ag said:
Where do we stand on this show? Greatest ever? GoT killer?
Yes but no. Probably not but maybe. Possibly. Not likely.
So...is it clear that there are two different times at work? Unless Lawrence gets picked up and repaired and put into a different story line pretty quickly. Not impossible, I guess.
Just an interesting bit of trivia: In real life, those bells on the crosses in the graveyard were attached to string that went into the coffins. If a person was buried alive, he could ring the bell for help. Maybe it's symbolic of how Arnold is reaching out from beyond the grave for help from Dolores.
Just an interesting bit of trivia: In real life, those bells on the crosses in the graveyard were attached to string that went into the coffins. If a person was buried alive, he could ring the bell for help. Maybe it's symbolic of how Arnold is reaching out from beyond the grave for help from Dolores.
i was a little confused by the earlier Maeve scene, I need to watch that one again. But yeah, looks like confirmation of multiple timelines right?
I'm just happy we got to see Dolores turn into River Tam. No power in the 'verse can stop her.
dlance said:
I am fairly certain the pair of guys scenes is the park 30 years ago with the light hatted guy being the MiB. He takes over his brother-in-law's company after he is killed in the park. Dolores' awakening is programmed over by updates.
To what end? Why have the mib narrative path that we have seen so far? These stories are happening at the same time approximately, but it may not be the exact same day in each case. The central theme of the show makes no sense if you have Williams / Delores stories occurring 30 years ago.
Especially when Delores said today she hadn't talked to the partner in 34 years, but then said she lied. This is harrowing concurrently or they are bungling the themes.
dlance said:
I am fairly certain the pair of guys scenes is the park 30 years ago with the light hatted guy being the MiB. He takes over his brother-in-law's company after he is killed in the park. Dolores' awakening is programmed over by updates.
Each week that goes by I'm more convinced that this is the case.
OH wow.
The Asian guy with the bird..
"C'mon Little One c'mon"
Thats got to be a direct reference to Jurassic Park when the baby raptor is being born and John Hammond utters the exact same lines next to the Asian Scientist.
Both Michael Chrichton novels.
Please tell me someone else caught that??
The Asian guy with the bird..
"C'mon Little One c'mon"
Thats got to be a direct reference to Jurassic Park when the baby raptor is being born and John Hammond utters the exact same lines next to the Asian Scientist.
Both Michael Chrichton novels.
Please tell me someone else caught that??
Honestly I was really skeptical of MIB being the light hatted guy (always wanna call him Gavin because of House of Cards) but after tonight I'm convinced they're the same.
I keep wanting to call him McPoyle.
tx-ags14 said:
Honestly I was really skeptical of MIB being the light hatted guy (always wanna call him Gavin because of House of Cards) but after tonight I'm convinced they're the same.
Yep. I've been critical of the theory, but tonight's episode skirted on confirming it many different times.
Really good episode. That look that William gave when he shot the soldier off of Logan was incredible.
They weren't kidding when they said that as you get further from Sweetwater, things get more intense.
They weren't kidding when they said that as you get further from Sweetwater, things get more intense.
Well we can definitely start with two different timelines. Them being the same person does still seem to make a lot sense (and I've been on board with this theory). However, it appears as if William and Dolores are going to make big breakthroughs with "the maze" as well, and if that's the case, it wouldn't have taken MiB 30 years to do so.
Tonight's episode was so great though. It's early, as we're only halfway into first season, but this show is just incredible. The 2 scenes between Hopkins and Wood and then Hopkins and Harris were just so good.
Tonight's episode was so great though. It's early, as we're only halfway into first season, but this show is just incredible. The 2 scenes between Hopkins and Wood and then Hopkins and Harris were just so good.
Timeline:
Park created
Arnold dies/disaster at church
William & Logan arrive
Dolores awakens via bicameral mind/voices
Something else bad happens
Man in Black quests for the maze
Maeve becomes self aware on her own (no voices req'd)
???
Profit
Other thoughts:
Chubbs? (Security guy) is a robot. Scenes of him without other known cast members could be whenever. Elsie knows he's a robot.
Has anyone considered Logan may be the man in black, not William?
Park created
Arnold dies/disaster at church
William & Logan arrive
Dolores awakens via bicameral mind/voices
Something else bad happens
Man in Black quests for the maze
Maeve becomes self aware on her own (no voices req'd)
???
Profit
Other thoughts:
Chubbs? (Security guy) is a robot. Scenes of him without other known cast members could be whenever. Elsie knows he's a robot.
Has anyone considered Logan may be the man in black, not William?
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