Ok. "Highly unlikely" then.
*** WESTWORLD Season 1 (HBO) ***
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Last: 7 yr ago by Sazerac
This may be something everybody else picked up on, but I didn't catch it until I rewatched.bobinator said:
I assume they're real conversations, but are happening at a different time from what we're seeing in the story.
Almost like something went horribly awry, and we're seeing a debrief of Dolores afterward as they try to piece together the events.
Ford tells Bernard at one time that Arnold's theory of consciousness was to have a voice in the characters head that directed them and that they believed to be God. I may be getting the details a little wrong, but the gist of the conversation was that early on in the park there was a voice in the hosts' heads that told them what to do, and that through that they would eventually develop consciousness. They eventually abandoned that theory, for whatever reason.
Bernard's assistant shows him a clip of the guy who goes crazy with the milk. He is having a conversation with nobody at that time. He eventually calls whoever he is talking to "Arnold." Bernard speaks to Ford about the incident and that is what Ford is referencing when telling him the story about the early park with Arnold.
Dolores keeps hearing Bernard's voice in her head say "remember Dolores" or something similar just before it cuts to another scene with Dolores. When she went to dig up the gun the first time she said "Here" to nobody. When she shot the guy in the hayloft a voice said "Kill him" just before she pulled the trigger. This voice did not sound like Bernard's.
They abandoned the bicameral mind because it was driving the hosts insane, and because they decided they didn't want hosts to develop true consciousness.
What do you mean? Any theories?bangobango said:
The reason I'm fixated on it is because I think there may be something else going on at the park rather than what we think.
Maybe it is as simple as people entering and leaving like they're showing us, but the way they're doing things could also indicate that the park is not as it seems or as we believe it to be.
Delores kind of debunked it too when Bernard asked her if she ever felt like two different people, and she said no.AliasMan02 said:
They abandoned the bicameral mind because it was driving the hosts insane, and because they decided they didn't want hosts to develop true consciousness.
R0GUE said:Delores kind of debunked it too when Bernard asked her if she ever felt like two different people, and she said no.AliasMan02 said:
They abandoned the bicameral mind because it was driving the hosts insane, and because they decided they didn't want hosts to develop true consciousness.
Bernard was talking about her being two people in that she could either be an automaton, like the other hosts, or could be self aware as she had become (which he had a hand in, clearly).
The bicameral mind is different. It's a programming architecture where they split the instructions separate from the responses. One half of the brain would tell the host to do something, and the other half would carry it out. The problem with this is that eventually the hosts view the voice telling them to do things as an outside force, which you might call God. And when you believe your thoughts to be God talking to you, well... that's trouble.
Now we see that some hosts, at least Abernathy, Walter, and Delores, ARE hearing a voice telling them to do things. That "voice" programming overrides other programming and can put them off their loop.
It's kind of the same thing though right? Bernard asked her that question right after Dr. Ford told him about the bicameral mind speech, so I figured it had to relate. Isn't automaton vs. self-awareness just another way to describe taking instructions from "god" vs. being in control of your own actions?AliasMan02 said:R0GUE said:Delores kind of debunked it too when Bernard asked her if she ever felt like two different people, and she said no.AliasMan02 said:
They abandoned the bicameral mind because it was driving the hosts insane, and because they decided they didn't want hosts to develop true consciousness.
Bernard was talking about her being two people in that she could either be an automaton, like the other hosts, or could be self aware as she had become (which he had a hand in, clearly).
The bicameral mind is different. It's a programming architecture where they split the instructions separate from the responses. One half of the brain would tell the host to do something, and the other half would carry it out. The problem with this is that eventually the hosts view the voice telling them to do things as an outside force, which you might call God. And when you believe your thoughts to be God talking to you, well... that's trouble.
Now we see that some hosts, at least Abernathy, Walter, and Delores, ARE hearing a voice telling them to do things. That "voice" programming overrides other programming and can put them off their loop.
Maybe its not a direct analogy, but I think there's a theme of "duality" at least.
On another topic. Why aren't any of the Welcome Center Hosts going nuts? Is it because they are in on the bit from the beginning? Since they know they are slaves from the beginning there is no big reveal for them ever. Or is because they aren't being cruelly murdered and tortured over and over? I don't think that's it though, because they are still being treated as re-usable sexbots purely for the pleasure of the Hosts. There's plenty for them to want to rebel against. You'd think, considering they KNOW they are being used as tools for the humans they would be the ones fomenting rebellion.
Not any good theories.bobinator said:What do you mean? Any theories?bangobango said:
The reason I'm fixated on it is because I think there may be something else going on at the park rather than what we think.
Maybe it is as simple as people entering and leaving like they're showing us, but the way they're doing things could also indicate that the park is not as it seems or as we believe it to be.
It could just be (probably is) the editing and/or a narrative trick as others on here have already suggested, but there are many times in the show when it does not feel as thought the park is an actual physical place.
The cut scenes with Dolores and Bernard while she's out camping with William. The entrance into the park with William and Logan. The many times when the characters just seem to "wake up" in the middle of a conversation rather than in their beds. The business with Dolores and her gun.
I suspect it is just as you and others have said, but I feel it's worth keeping tabs on it because it is a little odd.
I sort of get what you're saying, but the fact that there's a "behind the scenes" and they're approving explosions and whatnot, I think we have to take that as proof the park itself is "real" in the sense that it's not a virtual reality or anything. We've also seen them building new hosts and animals, cleaning the bodies, etc.
That would be just blatant lying to the audience, which is a great way to get people to hate your show.
That would be just blatant lying to the audience, which is a great way to get people to hate your show.
I wonder how much of an up-charge it is to blow a host's entire face/head off with an explosive like the MiB did.
I guess you probably buy the explosives before you go in, and then once you're in there and you start to set them off they have to give final approval to make sure no other guests are nearby? That can't be cheap.
Also, if they'd have said no that could have really thrown off his plans.
Also, if they'd have said no that could have really thrown off his plans.
i have a feeling that guest gets priority treatment.bobinator said:
I guess you probably buy the explosives before you go in, and then once you're in there and you start to set them off they have to give final approval to make sure no other guests are nearby? That can't be cheap.
Also, if they'd have said no that could have really thrown off his plans.
Two things
The final episode is titled "The bicameral mind"
2. If Bernard is a host, and "these violent delights have violent ends" is command code, didn't Bernard hear that from Delores in episode one?
The final episode is titled "The bicameral mind"
2. If Bernard is a host, and "these violent delights have violent ends" is command code, didn't Bernard hear that from Delores in episode one?
Well yeah, I was just making a joke. Like if you weren't him and you were like "yes, I sprung for these just to escape this jail cell, here we go..."
"Um... that's a negative... there's another guest in the cell next to him..."
"Um... that's a negative... there's another guest in the cell next to him..."
"hmm, they're only bronze level. i'll allow it."bobinator said:
Well yeah, I was just making a joke. Like if you weren't him and you were like "yes, I sprung for these just to escape this jail cell, here we go..."
"Um... that's a negative... there's another guest in the cell next to him..."
bangobango said:amercer said:
The headquarters "building" is inside a huge mesa. Looking at the map, guests arrive pretty far under the top of the Mesa, so it makes sense that the train into the park would start underground and then pop out into a valley.
So again, how do you go from room to a fast moving train?
All a train is, is a room on wheels.
Don't have too much to add, but one of the Podcasts I listen to that covers the show stated that the Nolan brothers have trouble 'sticking the landing'. Loving the show so far.
Except that the endings to The Dark Knight and Inception are literally two of my all time favorite endings to any movies ever. Granted, with TDKR's and Interstellar's endings, there's a lot to be desired, but I think overall the Nolan's are better than most at that kind of stuff.
Appreciate the input on that. I know next to nothing about the film industry. Thought it was interesting that she (Joanna Robinson) said that considering I loved The Dark Knight. The podcast I listen to is called 'Decoding Westworld'.TCTTS said:
Except that the endings to The Dark Knight and Inception are literally two of my all time favorite endings to any movies ever. Granted, with TDKR's and Interstellar's endings, there's a lot to desired, but I think overall they better than most at that kind of stuff.
Based on Person of Interest, I'd be more worried about Nolan venturing off into the weeds in the midpoint of the series rather than the ending.
Did anyone find anything on the guy that carved Orion's Belt? Seemed to me that not only did he receive a command that overrode the sleep command, but he had an internal struggle in the moment when he was about to kill the girl with the rock but chose to kill himself instead.
Also seems to me that Arnold's consciousness lives in the park in some way, or Ford is attempting to create it or suppress it. Not sure which. Ford obviously has some way of controlling the bots without keyed or verbal commands, which we saw in the scene at the ranch when he froze all his servants.
Couple of specific things that have been outright stated or hinted at, that Ford and Arnold at one time wanted to be Gods and somewhere disagreed. 2 elements of a God at play, creation and immortality. Have a feeling Arnold's death may have been to prove something to Ford, or to force Ford down a path he didn't want to take.
Also seems to me that Arnold's consciousness lives in the park in some way, or Ford is attempting to create it or suppress it. Not sure which. Ford obviously has some way of controlling the bots without keyed or verbal commands, which we saw in the scene at the ranch when he froze all his servants.
Couple of specific things that have been outright stated or hinted at, that Ford and Arnold at one time wanted to be Gods and somewhere disagreed. 2 elements of a God at play, creation and immortality. Have a feeling Arnold's death may have been to prove something to Ford, or to force Ford down a path he didn't want to take.
I thought the robot that Ray Combs'd himself was doing it more of a self destruct mode. Guessing they will uncover something on his hdd that will show tampering of some sort.
Wow, that is a very obscure but accurate reference.PooDoo said:
I thought the robot that Ray Combs'd himself was doing it more of a self destruct mode.
Maybe they are just secondary and tertiary logos.Quote:
To recap the logo issues:
Here is the logo on a labcoat in a flashback scene...
Which is the same logo William sees when he goes up the escalator...
And it's in the changing room that he's in (though they changed it for the thumbnail for the episode)
Which is different from the current park logo
I really hope when this is all said and done, everything in the show is just "what you see is what you get". No alternate timelines. None of that crap
"It's a tricky thing... weaving the old with the new"
I still think this quote by Ford holds deeper meaning.
I still think this quote by Ford holds deeper meaning.
To be clear nobody is saying there are "alternate timelines" like in the Terminator sense, just that the show is showing us two timelines concurrently, the past and the present.
This guy is seen concurrently with the MIB right before MIB drags off Dolores. He then goes crazy and is retired by Bernard when Dolores's father is retired.
The robot who replaces him is seen at Dolores house when she shoots the guy and rides off and finds William.
Also, I believe the bartender that replaces her dad is seen at the same time as the MIB at the bar before replacing her dad.
There is going to have to be some major leaps taken if they're working in the past and in the present at the same time, and I honestly think due to this being a series and not a two hour movie, there will be way too much to remember and piece together if they hit us with a timeline surprise like that. I just don't think it's logistically feasible.
You're assuming the scene where she shoots the guy and the scene where she ends up in Williams' camp are in the same timeline. Which we don't know.
I'm not sure what the bartender has to do with anything?
There really won't be that much juggling to make it possible. It took like three seconds to explain that Bruce Willis was dead the entire movie.
I'm not sure what the bartender has to do with anything?
There really won't be that much juggling to make it possible. It took like three seconds to explain that Bruce Willis was dead the entire movie.
The bartender and new Abernathy are two different actors, same with Walter and new Walter.
bobinator said:
It took like three seconds to explain that Bruce Willis was dead the entire movie.
Bull crap he was never dead in Die Hard
Umm... have you not seen that movie? Do you think a living person could do all that crap? I mean it's in the title. It's hard for him to die because he's already dead.
bobinator said:
You're assuming the scene where she shoots the guy and the scene where she ends up in Williams' camp are in the same timeline. Which we don't know.
I'm not sure what the bartender has to do with anything?
There really won't be that much juggling to make it possible. It took like three seconds to explain that Bruce Willis was dead the entire movie.
That was an hour and a half movie. This is already at four hours. Youre not going to be able to do a thirty seconds mo the and piece everything together for the audience because it's too convoluted and interwoven at this point.
Is it though? Dolores' plot has to play out, but it's not like they have an entire web of plotlines tied between William and Logan and the present, only Dolores.
Let's hypothetically say William is the MiB (which the fact that he's called the MiB and doesn't have a name is the biggest reason why I think he could be William), in a current timeline scene, the MiB could walk into a room with Ford, and Ford could say "Hello... William" and that would pretty much be that right?
Let's hypothetically say William is the MiB (which the fact that he's called the MiB and doesn't have a name is the biggest reason why I think he could be William), in a current timeline scene, the MiB could walk into a room with Ford, and Ford could say "Hello... William" and that would pretty much be that right?
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