He isn't married to a Frey yet.

He is offered a dowry equal to the weight of whichever woman Bolton chose to marry. He chose the largest Frey he could find. GRRM didn't really get into the reason why, but it can be speculated that it was used to seal the loyalty of Bolton when the Frey's betray Robb.

The Axis of Awesome - Rage of Thrones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CLCOvZOh1o

Did Winterfell fall before or after the Blackwater Bay battle?

I just read that GRRM confirmed there will be no Strong Belwas on the TV show. Strong Belwas not happy.

After, if you mean when Bolton sacked it. Theons last chapter is one of the last fifty pages or so in Clash and Blackwater is about 100 pages earlier

aggie93, I actually expect the show to reveal that Ramsay killed all the Ironborn anyway. We don't really know what happened there.

off-topic: I copied this from the non-spoilers thread

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I hope Tyrion betrays his family. He has no reason to stay loyal when they all constantly **** on him

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Tyrion loves his family though and takes great pride in being a Lannister. He doesn't hate all his family by any means. He does hate his sister and Joffrey (who he tried in vain to help) and he desperately wants his father to accept him (that scene last episode where his father rejected him so harshly truly hurt him). He loves Jaime, Myrcella, and Tommen though and he knows that he is nothing without his family name and the wealth and power it commands.

Remember in Season 1 when he speaks about how if he were born a commoner they would have likely just left him to the wolves but because he was born a "Lannister of Casterly Rock" things are expected of him. Tyrion also likely realizes that even though his father may have said he will never get Casterly Rock by law it is his if his father were to die. Jaime cannot inherit as a member of the KG and he is the only other son so he trumps Cersei. Betraying his family would also mean he betrays those he loves as well as those he hates and it would betray his own identity in many ways.

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That second part is me. I figure if I am going to post over there I should speak as I saw things at the time. What fun is it to be a spoiler?

What a GoT discussion sand-bagger

haha.

Always nice to throw them off the trail of a storyline that won't resolve until June 2014. That's called a slow-burner.

It's less about throwing a head fake (though that is a nice bonus) as much as it is trying to get non readers to grasp the full situation. That way when they do get the shocking moment they can fully appreciate it. For instance in this case it is really important that a non reader be able to understand just how conflicted Tyrion is and more than that understanding that almost nothing is black and white in GoT. Every character has positive and negative attributes and multiple conflicts that factor in to their decisions. Much of the story is really a tragedy as well but you have to really understand those motivations to grasp the real tragedy. GoT has a lot of Hamlet in it.

Something I have been thinking about btw is that the writers know the ending and thus I am on the lookout for subtle changes to the plot that may have a later purpose we don't know about from the books.

The thing that has me intrigued is the Cat dialogue with Robb's wife. That was a MAJOR deviation from the books in showing Cat having regret toward how she treated Jon Snow. As the books are written it would seem to serve little purpose and I don't see how it would be different in the show because Cat doesn't appear to have any opportunity to encounter Jon going forward, unless she actually does and we don't know about it yet. In terms of book to show the only relevance would be Robb's upcoming will and naming of Jon as his heir which Cat protests in the book.

I guess my point is that maybe this is the foreshadowing that Undead Cat somehow connects with Jon Snow to help him though I don't know how that happens with him at The Wall and her in the Riverlands. As unlikely as it seems there is also no way of predicting GRRM. It just seemed a very curious addition to the show and while on the surface it may have just been an "acting moment" for Michelle Fairley that seems a bit too convenient.

I don't understand the mentality of posting on the other thread pretending you haven't read the book

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The thing that has me intrigued is the Cat dialogue with Robb's wife. That was a MAJOR deviation from the books in showing Cat having regret toward how she treated Jon Snow. As the books are written it would seem to serve little purpose and I don't see how it would be different in the show because Cat doesn't appear to have any opportunity to encounter Jon going forward, unless she actually does and we don't know about it yet. In terms of book to show the only relevance would be Robb's upcoming will and naming of Jon as his heir which Cat protests in the book.

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I think you are exactly right.

could also be foreshadowing Robb's wife getting preggo. iirc, we don't know for sure if she is or isn't in the books

I'm not pretending I haven't read the book, I'm just not spoiling it. I'm just giving background in context to what people know up to this point in the show.

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I'm not pretending I haven't read the book, I'm just not spoiling it. I'm just giving background in context to what people know up to this point in the show.

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Got to be very careful doing that, as I'm sure you remember the controversy from the past two seasons when some book readers tried to be helpful by doing exactly the same thing. Some of the non-readers objected to any extra context that wasn't explicitly revealed in the TV show.

They've already proven that there will be some significant gaps in the show.

That are either answered later or left up to the watcher to figure out somehow. So I would think that while using context clues to write the story; like GRRM said some people are gonna get their knickers in a twist.

What if the cat thing means lady stoneheart will revive jon in book 6

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The Axis of Awesome - Rage of Thrones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CLCOvZOh1o

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brilliant

G Martin,

That's my whole point actually. My post on Tyrion was in context of the events up until then and Tyrion's conflict without any hint of things to come. If anything a person reading it would assume Tyrion would never betray his family because of it. I think that is the attitude any reader should take on that thread, keeping things in context to someone who has no clue what is coming. The more the non readers are shocked by the events to come the better as that was the experience the readers had. I couldn't believe it when Tyrion actually killed his father, though I cheered. The more the non readers can understand the context prior to events happening the better, to simply see Tyrion kill his father is one thing but to truly understand how conflicted he was when reaching that decision is something else. Tyrion is a man who truly does love his family even though his family does not love him except for Jaime, Tommen, and Myrcella.

I agree that the UnCat reviving Jon is a legit possibility now as Beric gave his life for Cat. That wouldn't be my preference just because I think the "undead" thing is kind of cheesy. I'd rather Jon get a blackened wound by Mel ala Victarion's hand or something like that. If Jon is undead it greatly limits what his character can do. He can't be king. R+L=J means nothing if true. He can't marry Dany. It would put his character in a weird place that either he is a sideshow like UnCat or it loses a lot of realism by somehow thinking the people of Westeros would accept a zombie like dude as their King. There has simply been too much investment of time into Jon's character and storyline for him not to be a key player at the end, esp in regards to the prophecies.

I bet the red woman quickly revives Jon before there's too much damage. Since he died he's free from his vows to the wall. Also in debt to her.

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I'm just giving background in context to what people know up to this point in the show.

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Sir, if you haven't already, you need to run for political office with answers like that one!

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If Jon is undead it greatly limits what his character can do. He can't be king. R+L=J means nothing if true. He can't marry Dany. It would put his character in a weird place that either he is a sideshow like UnCat or it loses a lot of realism by somehow thinking the people of Westeros would accept a zombie like dude as their King.

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Exactly. I hope GRRM isn't overthinking this. He has set this story up to end in a satisfying way after 7,000+ pages of tragedy and heartbreak. If he kills Jon, it will simply be a big "f*** you, I'll do what I want" act of defiance.

That said, it's his story. The last book can be Bran warged into Summer running around pissing on trees and marveling at how there's literally no human left alive in Westeros.

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I bet the red woman quickly revives Jon before there's too much damage

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As much as I hate thinking too far ahead, I agree.

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could also be foreshadowing Robb's wife getting preggo. iirc, we don't know for sure if she is or isn't in the books

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SPOILER:

AFFC, Jamie's chapter, page 661 (HB)

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"As you will." Jamie turned to the daughter. "I am sorry for your loss. The boy had courage, I'll give him that. There is a question I must ask you. Are you carrying his child, my lady?"

Jeyne burst from her chair and would have fled the room if the guard at the door had not seized her by the arm. "She is not," said Lady Sybell, as her daughter struggled to escape. "I made certain of that, as your lord father bid me.

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Nope. Martin loves to kill his protagonists: Ned is dead, Rob is dead and now Jon is dead.

None of them are coming back. Deal with it.

Catelyn Stark came back!

Sort of.

Jon isn't dead. I called it from the first book. Jon will claim the iron throne.

Martin was asked about Jon being dead recently and he said, "Oh, so you think he's dead then?" and smiled.

It would make the wasted storyline on the Dornish Prince who became dragon fodder look like nothing. Personally I don't care much about Jon but unlike Ned and Robb there are too many storylines that would die with him. He has no children. He has no siblings. Just wouldn't make sense.

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Since he died he's free from his vows to the wall

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Do we know for a fact that he died?

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He has no siblings

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So you don't count Bran, Rickon, Arya or Sansa? Arya and Bran, at least, are likely to care what happens to Jon.

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SPOILER:

AFFC, Jamie's chapter, page 661 (HB)
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"As you will." Jamie turned to the daughter. "I am sorry for your loss. The boy had courage, I'll give him that. There is a question I must ask you. Are you carrying his child, my lady?"

Jeyne burst from her chair and would have fled the room if the guard at the door had not seized her by the arm. "She is not," said Lady Sybell, as her daughter struggled to escape. "I made certain of that, as your lord father bid me.

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Damn, I forgot all about that.

[This message has been edited by redline248 (edited 4/11/2013 9:27p).]

So, since I completely forgot that whole section about Jenye and her mom...allow me to ask:

Why is the mom helping the Lannisters? Do we believe she would really have done something to cause harm/unhappiness to her daughter?

I was never intrigued with the dornish prince who got smoked.

On the other hand, can't wait to see what the sand snakes do. They better cast them bc they sounded smokin effin hot.

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It would make the wasted storyline on the Dornish Prince who became dragon fodder look like nothing.

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i've enjoyed most of the deaths GRRM's thrown at us (in a "this is good storytelling" kinda way) but Quentyn's death pissed me the **** off. so much wasted time following his stupid journey just to watch him get friend zoned and then die stupidly while accomplishing absolutely nothing