Just strip them down and throw them in a room and shut the door.

Any thoughts on how they are going to end the season?

i am wagering the last scene is Beric giving up his life and resurrecting Catelyn. the last moment you see her awake and then it goes black til next season.

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America's destiny is not of our own choosing. We did not seek nor did we provoke an assault on our freedom and our way of life. We did not expect nor did we invite a confrontation with evil. Yet the true measure of a people's strength is how they rise to master that moment when it does arrive.

Seriously, to a degree Robb brought this onto himself... he chose to break an oath and marry Talisa. Then he tried to garner the favor of the guy who he insulted. (Guy is, admittedly, a piece of human filth. He didn't give a crap for his wife, "I'll just find another one.)

Were a couple of his daughters already pregnant when Robb apologized to them?

By the way, why are so many people wondering about Jon being the heir? Bran and Rickon are next in line; the sisters are, presumably, after them (even if Sansa is married to a Lannister).

Does Catelyn get brought back in the books? Why would this Beric dude bring her back?

I'm reading them, but I'm way behind! May start losing some sleep to get caught up...

I never thought of the angle someone on the other thread brought up re: Bran being a warg... can he get into one of the dragons?



[This message has been edited by combat wombat™ (edited 6/3/2013 9:30a).]

I don't see why he couldn't, unless there is some special dragon trait that prevents it. You should read the books faster and stop getting your story from this thread

I finally finished all the books, and all I can say is thank God I can read this thread now. There's a lot of good discussion here as well as insight, for example, I never connected that the "Alchemist" in the FfC Prologue is probably Jaquen H'Ghar who is now masquerading around as "Pate." That's fuggin' cool.

Last night was awesome, the RW was way more intense in the book, but I thought they did a good job with it. Glad they made it obvious that Roose Bolton & the Lannisters were in on it. Seeing Bran warg into Hodor was also good for the casual viewer, cause the shows have really downplayed Bran and his "greendreams" compared to the book.

And now begins the downfall of Jorah Mormont...I wonder how he'll end up when all is said and done. Stupid Dany, sh*tting on his heart like that.

I'm working on it!! But a person needs some sleep... and I'd get fired if I stayed at home to read them all.

[This message has been edited by combat wombat™ (edited 6/3/2013 9:37a).]

I'd really recommend staying off this thread until you are at least through this book, there really is a ton of stuff coming up that you don't want to spoil reading it here.

Meh, I don't care. I re-read books so not knowing the storyline isn't too big a deal to me.

However, your warning has been noted.

Has Jorah kissed her in the show, yet? I thought it happened right before Yunkai in the book, which is why she sends him into the city.

Can we crowd-source a quick comparison of the depcition of the Reeds in the books versus the show?

From what I can remember, in the first book, Ned remembers the battle at the Tower of Joy and how Howland Reed saves him from Arthur Dayne. In the second book, Howland Reed sends Meera and Jojen to Winterfel to pledge for King Robb. During a feast at Winterfel, Bran learns about Howland and Ned being close. Before the the RW, Jon is named Robb's heir and the message is carried to the Reeds at Greywater via Lady Maege.

In the show...

Uh. Jojen's last name is Reed. That's about it.

In my mind, this has been the oddest thing about the adaptation.

Lol, seriously Wombat - this thread is like asking a bunch of kindergartners to summarize the plot of a movie for you.

But to answer a couple of your questions, yes, Robb did bring it on himself by marrying Talisa/Jayne (in the books). It was a mortal insult to Walder Frey, a man who was already known to be especially touchy. But he had to try and make it up to Frey because they needed the Twins. They knew Frey would be an ass about it, but no one would have suspected that he'd do what he did. To slaughter guests under your roof is literally the worst sin in Westeros. Worse than kingslaying or betraying an oath.

The reason we're wondering about Jon being the heir is because in the books, Robb writes a will that specifically names Jon his heir and legitimizes him. Sansa is married to a Lannister and Arya, Bran and Rickon are all dead as far as Robb knows. He sent the will to Howland Reed and it was never heard from again, but a lot of readers expected it to be important later. It still may but the fact it was left out completely does diminish its importance in my mind.

And the idea of warging into a dragon is very interesting....

The lack of info on the Reeds has been puzzling. They spent lots of Bran's story on a made up catfight with Meera and Osha which has now shown to be for absolutely nothing (Bran is still the one who sends Osha and Rickon away, not because of the fighting). Nothing about the Tourney of Harrenhall or Tower of Joy. Nothing about Robert's Rebellion. Nothing even about the importance of the Neck and the uniqueness of the people and landscape there or that Greywater Watch is the only castle that moves. Nothing about how if you go into the Neck without the permission of the crannogmen you are signing your death warrant.

I'm sure they will fill in some of that later, I just don't understand why they haven't done any of it when Bran had so little going on in his storyline this season. Of course, personally there is no character in the books I am more interested in hearing from than Howland Reed. He is easily the most important character we have not met yet and know the least about.

They are probably saving background info for the stretches where Bran doesn't have much story in the books.

I think they cover it next season, because his travel to the wall is boring minus that tower scene, which I think was replaced by last nights scene, no big change but wasn't it ok the middle of a lake/pond?

No that OSHA and Rick are gone they can focus on jorjen training bran for seeing, which I bet will give us some of the info we want

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The lack of info on the Reeds has been puzzling. They spent lots of Bran's story on a made up catfight with Meera and Osha which has now shown to be for absolutely nothing (Bran is still the one who sends Osha and Rickon away, not because of the fighting). Nothing about the Tourney of Harrenhall or Tower of Joy. Nothing about Robert's Rebellion. Nothing even about the importance of the Neck and the uniqueness of the people and landscape there or that Greywater Watch is the only castle that moves. Nothing about how if you go into the Neck without the permission of the crannogmen you are signing your death warrant.

I'm sure they will fill in some of that later, I just don't understand why they haven't done any of it when Bran had so little going on in his storyline this season. Of course, personally there is no character in the books I am more interested in hearing from than Howland Reed. He is easily the most important character we have not met yet and know the least about.

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Yes! All of this. We should have been hearing bits and pieces about Howland Reed for two seasons, so that when he does appear the show watchers will realize that this is a BFD. Instead...nothing. Bran has already had a number of slow scenes where it could have been worked in.

I really hope it's because the show writers are trying to keep speculation about Jon's history and parentage quiet until the big reveal, and not because Howland Reed has no role to play in the overall story.

On that note, I really really hope that next week at the Nightfort we get some good background. I have a personal theory that the Nightfort is going to play a huge role in the upcoming war with the Others.

There is too little time on the screen for Howland Reed's life story, the Tower of Joy, Tourney of Harrenhall. If you waste 5 minutes of scene time on those they look extremely important rather than just back story filler in someone's POV story. It marks them out as critical when that was never the intent.

The same thing with the Jon legitimization. Its fits in as just one more thing that Cat is stressed about from her POV in the books, but throwing in them arguing about it as a scene in the show would be a "Hey this **** is foreshadowing, this guy might die!" baseball bat across the back of the skull to a viewer. (In addition it didn't fit the narrative. Robb's heir is in his wife's belly in the show).

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It marks them out as critical when that was never the intent.

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Jjxvi, that's kind of my point - as a reader, I felt that the info about Howland Reed was critical. Every little piece we got, drip by drip, made you realize what an integral role he could have to play in the upcoming story. I'm not surprised that they haven't done a 5-minute "lets talk about Howland Reed" overview but I expected him to be introduced organically into the story by now.

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the show writers are trying to keep speculation about Jon's history and parentage quiet until the big reveal

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I agree there has to be some big reveal about Jon's parentage, which got me thinking about Jon himself. He has to be alive in order for a reveal to have any value. Who cares if he is a long lost heir to the throne if he is killed by the NW? He would be just another corpse at that point.

They have set up his parentage too much for him simply to die and make the whole thing irrelevant prior to any reveal. If you reveal he is an heir THEN kill him, that is one thing, but killing him before the reveal makes any reveal unnecessary. Thus, if there is a big reveal about his parentage, then he has to survive the attempted murder by the NW.

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Meh, I don't care. I re-read books so not knowing the storyline isn't too big a deal to me.

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Its not just the story but the context and bigger picture that you are missing out on that certainly cant be conveyed by our posts.

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It marks them out as critical when that was never the intent.

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Yep. I think it is a difference of medium. The books could show tells those stories and still leave some mystery. On the show it will be too blunt. I think they will save it until necessary.


Also, i saw this observation elsewhere. Did anyone catch the part about Ned not allowing the bedding ceremony, when in fact Catherine recalls her own ceremony in the books? Looks like they are trying to draw comparisons with Tyrion and Ned now....

[This message has been edited by AgDev01 (edited 6/3/2013 10:33a).]

I understand why they haven't had more on the Reeds (esp the ToJ and Harrenhall) but it's still a bummer, I think they are some of the coolest characters in the story and yet we know almost nothing about them in the show. They haven't even mentioned where they are from. I guess that is the surprising thing to me, I'd like for them to at least give some background on the crannogmen and let watchers know that they are very different than everyone else.

FWIW, I think the Reeds are related to the CoTF.

Regarding Jon, the show is going to have to do a lot to endear him to the viewers more. I've read a few posts on the other thread in the past that viewers find him kind of boring. Really need to start building him up in the next couple of seasons.

I'd like to hear the theory of the night fort.

I bet there is no mention of the Rat Chef

Jon Snow will certainly not survive being "the poor boy, who never knew he was the heir to the throne, all set to rise up, find himself, get the girl. Martin will have his head on a spike as soon as the character finds that out. If Ned had to die, and Robb had to die, then the stereotypical, boy who would be king certainly has to die.

Jon Snow in the next couple seasons should be fine as far as character building. They should be able to build him up just by having him be in charge at the wall, similar to how Robb Stark was built up just be ordering some people around.

So if the obvious outcomes are Jon is really a Targ, and Dany conquers westeros...and Martin has a history of ending these kinds of outcomes...who will be left to rule the kingdoms once Dany/Jon destroy the white walkers?

Littlefinger

Hot pie or Sam , they are fat grrm is fat. He wants the fat guy to win

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then the stereotypical, boy who would be king certainly has to die.

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Or just keep him dead. Personally i would rather he opens up book six with khal Jhogo killing Daenerys, that would be about the biggest FU left.

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who will be left to rule the kingdoms once Dany/Jon destroy the white walkers?

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Stannis of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm

Wife woke up this morning and her stomach was "in knots" thinking about the show last night.

Jon and Dany getting married. Everyone knows that

OnlyForNow, my Nightfort theory is really my Stannis theory. I’ve read the books a number of times over the last 15 years (I’ve done a re-read every time a new book comes out – curse you GRRM!) and I’m convinced that Stannis has a major role to play with what happens with the Others. On the first read, I hated his scenes - he was boring, he wasn't going to win anyway, I wanted to get back to Jon and Robb and Kings Landing – but on re-reads I've realized that he is one of the most interesting characters in the book, and after DWD I’m sure of it (my theory). Stannis is black and white when it comes to his rights and duties but pretty damn gray about how he achieves them. He honestly believes he is AA and that he has the right to the Iron Throne because he is Robert’s rightful heir (and Aegon's grandson - his claim to the throne is equal to Dany's by blood). And he’s willing to do morally reprehensible things to make that happen. I think that when he realizes he’s lost the Iron Throne and that he’s not AA (because someone else is) he will snap. He is the “brittle iron” and won’t relinquish what he thinks he is entitled too. I can easily see him joining the Others to wage war against the throne he believes is his, for example. And the Nightfort is his personal castle now.

In my opinion, the Nightfort is going to be the scene of something big, whether battle or magic. It’s the oldest castle on the wall, and it’s full of magic – built by Bran the Builder and cast with spells just like the Wall. It has a history of violence, murder and sorcery. The Night King reined there, the Rat Chef cooked there, the 57 Sentinels are entombed there – as Samuel L. Jackson might say, it’s an evil f’ing castle. Stannis will be there will be there with Shireen, who has grayscale, and we know from Val that there is a connection between the Others and grayscale. And Patchface – odds are he is just a creepy weirdo, but if he turns out to be more, well, guess where he’s living. And don’t get me started on Mel, who is legitimately powerful behind her glamours. What could she be capable of if she figured out how to manipulate the magic of the First Men? I just think there are a lot of swirling threads that will connect in the Nightfort, just as the Others make their move.

Yeah, interesting but I don't see it that way at all.

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OnlyForNow, my Nightfort theory is really my Stannis theory. I’ve read the books a number of times over the last 15 years (I’ve done a re-read every time a new book comes out – curse you GRRM!) and I’m convinced that Stannis has a major role to play with what happens with the Others. On the first read, I hated his scenes - he was boring, he wasn't going to win anyway, I wanted to get back to Jon and Robb and Kings Landing – but on re-reads I've realized that he is one of the most interesting characters in the book, and after DWD I’m sure of it (my theory). Stannis is black and white when it comes to his rights and duties but pretty damn gray about how he achieves them. He honestly believes he is AA and that he has the right to the Iron Throne because he is Robert’s rightful heir (and Aegon's grandson - his claim to the throne is equal to Dany's by blood). And he’s willing to do morally reprehensible things to make that happen. I think that when he realizes he’s lost the Iron Throne and that he’s not AA (because someone else is) he will snap. He is the “brittle iron” and won’t relinquish what he thinks he is entitled too. I can easily see him joining the Others to wage war against the throne he believes is his, for example. And the Nightfort is his personal castle now.

In my opinion, the Nightfort is going to be the scene of something big, whether battle or magic. It’s the oldest castle on the wall, and it’s full of magic – built by Bran the Builder and cast with spells just like the Wall. It has a history of violence, murder and sorcery. The Night King reined there, the Rat Chef cooked there, the 57 Sentinels are entombed there – as Samuel L. Jackson might say, it’s an evil f’ing castle. Stannis will be there will be there with Shireen, who has grayscale, and we know from Val that there is a connection between the Others and grayscale. And Patchface – odds are he is just a creepy weirdo, but if he turns out to be more, well, guess where he’s living. And don’t get me started on Mel, who is legitimately powerful behind her glamours. What could she be capable of if she figured out how to manipulate the magic of the First Men? I just think there are a lot of swirling threads that will connect in the Nightfort, just as the Others make their move.

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In Book 6 they resurrect and reattach Varys's package at the Nighty Fort.

For a newly initiated "book reader," can someone fill me in on who "D&D" is? Is that the HBO producers or what?