GRRM is a great story teller. I'm still amazed at how he is able to keep track of all of the characters and story lines and arcs and prophecies and everything, really.

That being said, GRRM is a terrible writer. I'm used to classics and reading his books is torture for me. I don't blame anyone for not being able/ not wanting to read through all the crap to discover the story. And honestly, I wouldn't want to read the books if I knew a) the series wasn't completed, b) there is a HUGE cliffhanger at the end of the most recent book, and c) it is likely 10 years before I'll be able to get my hands on the last book of the series.

prepy,

You may want to go to the Tower of the Hand summaries, they essentially put every chapter down to a few paragraphs so you could read through all 5 "books" in a couple hours. My wife used them to get caught up on the books after she had seen the first 2 seasons and I use them for quick reference:

http://towerofthehand.com/books/guide.html

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prepy,

You may want to go to the Tower of the Hand summaries, they essentially put every chapter down to a few paragraphs so you could read through all 5 "books" in a couple hours. My wife used them to get caught up on the books after she had seen the first 2 seasons and I use them for quick reference:

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Nice...I just don't have the time, nor the desire really to read the books in their entirety. I had to read for my degrees and work, I don't want to read anything not consisting of College Football stats or summaries such as this...much appreciated

[This message has been edited by prepyag03 (edited 4/25/2013 3:29p).]

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The show has almost set the bar too high with Dany becoming such a badass after this last episode.

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That, or GRRM set the bar too low with what she becomes. There is still hope that the show can avoid some of the pitfalls.

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What's the difference if someone gets the story from a book or from people that have read the book?

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If I am reading a book for the first time I'd rather not know what's coming, same as if I was watching a show for the first time. Would you rather experience Darth Vader's reveal to Luke unknown or find out about it on wiki 2 days before you planned to watch the movie.

In my opinion, being immersed in the story when something happens is much better than skimming through unrelated internet posts and reading a spoiler.

"I'm assuming you watch the shows correct? What's the difference if someone gets the story from a book or from people that have read the book? My enjoyment of the show has nothing to do with the occasional spoiler I read on this thread. I don't read alot, and I skip quite a bit of ya'll conversations to leave some things to suspense, although I don't know what I don't know."

I don't know where to start. Like a previous poster said, when you're reading a book you become attached to the characters and in a way get lost in the story. The amazing thing about the RW was that I was completely dumbfounded. I had to reread the words over and over and even after that I couldn't quite comprehend the magnitude of what I had just read.

If I had gone to Wiki and read what happened at the RW I would have been pissed but it wouldn't have affected me nearly as much.

I understand your point on not having enough time to read them but I still wouldn't want to spoil one of the biggest internet meltdowns we've ever seen.

I thought I was spoiled about the RW on one of these threads before I had finished the books, but I ended up thinking that everyone was calling Tyrion and Sansa's marriage the RW. Even though that wasn't really a big deal, it still hated knowing about it. I can't imagine wanting to be spoiled about the REAL RW.

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Enhanced TV thread where people who read the books can explain the nuances to those who wish to see it, though no direct spoilers

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IIRC, this was suggested during season 1 when readers (myself included) were posting nuances and context on the non-spoiler thread. It would have worked OK then and perhaps for most of season 2, but not anymore. The writers are, by necessity, shuffling some events around so that readers cannot know for sure how or when specific events may be incorporated into the story. IMO, it's no longer possible to provide nuance without potentially revealing something that could be more important on the TV show than it was in the books. Better to either avoid the thread entirely or restrict answers as much as possible.

G Martin 87 = GRRM?

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Readers really just need to stay off the non-readers thread, plain and simple.
Once someone lets something slip about you-know-what, all hell is going to break loose.
Before something like this happens, let's all make a pact to stay off that thread for good.

Does anyone disagree with this plan?
I would really like some input from those that have frequented these boards longer than myself.
Essentially, we could end all complaints if we just stick to it.
So is everyone in?

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No.

Well, if you won't give it up, could you at least be a doll, Hobo, and post my message on the non-spoiler thread so people know that there are other readers who care about their book virginity?

Its a sad day when someone gets attacked by another poster and then is labeled a DB.

Just call me Tyrion

[This message has been edited by BTKAG97 (edited 4/25/2013 10:49p).]

WTH is going on with this thread?

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Spoilers Thread - for people who have read the books or really don't care if they get spoiled.

Enhanced TV thread where people who read the books can explain the nuances to those who wish to see it, though no direct spoilers

No spoilers thread - if you have even cracked a book don't even reply.

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We actually did this for season one or two, but there were still people posting on the non-spoiler thread, if I remember correctly.

The fact is, some people just get off on stuff like that. I can only imagine how pathetic the rest of their life is....

No, tyrion's awesome. You're a ******bag. Accept it.

This thread follows the same pattern weekly, by Tuesday it goes downhill and then it gets back to being pretty good after the Sunday show.

guys can we quit dumping on btk and others? this thread was made to discuss the show from a book-readers perspective and to discuss the book series itself. i think we've done that pretty well and had some fun conversation until the last few pages. put the petty **** aside

I'm not sure if it has been discussed here but I find it to be one of the most interesting sub plots in the series. Who does everyone think are Jon Snow's parents? It's widely believed to be Rhaegar Targaryen and Eddard's sister Lyanna. That makes a lot of sense to me. I always thought Jon would end up as the king in the end and being a Targaryen certainly gives him the right to the throne. Of course he would have to still be alive in the next book for this to come to pass.

Interesting theory.

Here is the theory in complete form from the wiki - fire and ice:

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Many readers believe that Jon is not the son of Eddard Stark. Instead, he is the son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Eddard's sister Lyanna. Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared together to the Tower of Joy early in Robert's Rebellion. There, it's believed, Rhaegar leaves a pregnant Lyanna to defend his family's dynasty.
At the end of Robert's Rebellion, about one year later, Eddard and his companions find three of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy: Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Oswell Whent, and Ser Arthur Dayne. The reasons for their presence and the ensuing fight are unknown, but defending the unborn son of the Heir Apparent would be a good reason to have been posted. The only known survivors of the fight were Eddard himself and Howland Reed. Eddard recalls his sister dying "in a bed of blood," where he made her an unknown promise just before she died.
Also, while Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon are said to have Tully features (hair color, eyes), Jon and Arya are said to be closer in appearance (which had made Sansa believe Arya was also a ******* like Jon, until her mother put Sansa's theory down). Arya is said to resemble Lyanna.
Further evidence to the truth of this theory in the eighth Eddard chapter of A Game of Thrones, in which Ned contemplates the significance of King Robert's *******s. As he muses, Ned's thoughts drift to Jon Snow, a logical segue, but also to his sister Lyanna, the promise he made her, and to Rhaegar Targaryen, implying some tacit link between the three individuals.[1]
Daenerys Targaryen's visions in the House of the Undying include an image of Rhaegar with his newborn son Aegon, proclaiming that "there must be a third" because "the dragon has three heads". Given that, according to Jon Connington, Rhaegar's wife Elia was believed infertile after two difficult pregnancies, and that Aegon the Conqueror himself had two wives, it is logical for Rhaegar to have attempted to fulfill prophecy by having a third child with another woman.
If Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna, it would ironically mean that Jon is not a ******* despite his life having been defined by his believed ******* status to a great extent, and that he is the heir to the Iron Throne after Aegon VI Targaryen (although this last is rendered moot so long as he belongs to the Night's Watch).
With Eddard beheaded by King Joffrey, Howland Reed is the only living person who knows the nature of Lyanna's death and what she made her brother promise.

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It makes sense that Howland Reed still has a part of some significance to play. His kids did kindof show up outta nowhere.

First time hearing about R+L=J?

No, but it is Friday and I have been browsing the GRRM forums and found something I never read before.

One of the biggest questions I have had about this series is the one word Brienne shouts right before Stoneheart's men hang her...









Well, I might have found the answer on that forum. This is a message board post, so take it for what it is worth BUT here goes:

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anyway after he finished reading the chapters, he opened the floor to some discussion about the plot of asoiaf, and some amazing genius girl said: you know my friends and i were debating this pretty heavily in the lobby just today, brienne screams “one word” as she is being hung by lady stoneheart’s men in a feast for crows - what was the word?
george turned the question on the audience and asked if anyone had figured it out - we shouted all kinds of dumb stuff, “jaime”, “sapphires”, etc. but some other genius in the second row said “sword”!
george confirmed that the word brienne screamed was “sword”; lady stoneheart gave brienne the choice of either swearing her sword to her or being hung, saying “sword or noose”, and as brienne was being hung she screamed “sword”
the questions moved on for some time, but then a girl asked “well what about podrick payne? he was getting hung with brienne!” and george confirmed that brienne had made the decision to swear her sword to stoneheart in order to save the innocent podrick payne from the noose

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http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67929-twow-spoilers-miscon-reading-two-winds-of-winter-chapters/

So Breinne lives? Could be.

I would love to see a reversal of fortunes between Jaime and Breinne. Remember Jamie's speech "so many vows", if Breinne keeps taking vows and her new master has her dishonor "protect the weak" I think it would be nice to put her and Jaime together later on.

I really hope Brienne and Jon Snow live. Getting sick of GRRM killing off every character I like(Ned, Robb, maybe Jon Snow).

The show has done a great job of creating chemistry through dialogue between the Brienne and Jaime. They are both obsessed with honor and generally the macho-fighter types. They have become a very intriguing story line.

As for the word "sword" -- it seems to make sense as Stoneheart did say "sword or noose." If true, then I'm intrigued as to what Stoneheart will require Brienne to do -- kill jaime?

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Who does everyone think are Jon Snow's parents? It's widely believed to be Rhaegar Targaryen and Eddard's sister Lyanna

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This is the most logical theory.

And regarding Brienne, I think she lives as well. To me GRRM didn't really "seal the deal" regarding her death.

Oh, and regarding Jon, I think GRRM had an interview or discussion where he wouldn't confirm Jon's death.

Jon is alive, GRRM just wanted a cliffhanger to screw with us.

To me, the characters that will make enormous impacts on the story and will remain alive for most of the remainder of the story are Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Tyrion, Brienne, and Jaime. Theon maybe as well. Robb was never a major character and Ned was killed off quickly. There really isn't a precedent for removing the main (first person chapter characters) characters from the story. I'm sure it will happen but it leads me to believe John and Brienne will live and play an important role to the ending.

[This message has been edited by hudson2508 (edited 4/26/2013 10:26a).]

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Who does everyone think are Jon Snow's parents? It's widely believed to be Rhaegar Targaryen and Eddard's sister Lyanna

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This is the most logical theory.

And regarding Brienne, I think she lives as well. To me GRRM didn't really "seal the deal" regarding her death.

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I think when book 1 was written grrm didn't have to deal with Internet discussion boards to nitpick 6 paragraphs of a dead mans dream, so 6 books(and 20 years) later most should be surprised with the revelation.

[This message has been edited by Billoncapitolhill (edited 4/26/2013 10:33a).]

Certainly R+L=J is a well developed theory and at this point if it isn't the case it would be more of a surprise. If not then Jon's story arc and all the time developing his character seems a waste in many ways (of course if he is truly dead that's even worse). Lots of conflict though and little facts to consider.

Howland Reed and the full events of not only the ToJ but the Tourney of Harrenhall are very important. Who was the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Was it Lyanna, Howland, or someone else? More and more it appears Lyanna left quite willingly with Rhaegar and that Rhaegar had good intentions of possibly overthrowing his crazy father. The key to the future is the past with ASOIF, if you can understand what happened you can understand what is to come and the prophecies are also huge (though they are almost nonexistent in the show which is too bad, the prophecies are where it really gets you thinking). The most important chapter to read and fully understand to get a hint of what is to come is Dany at the HoTU which of course was butchered in the show. It is one prophecy after another, some that have come true already, some are partially true, and some we just don't know. The key is the "Child of 3" prophecy and understanding its importance. Everything is in 3's. 3 Husbands of which the 3rd is a "blue flower in a wall of ice" and we know that Lyanna loved blue flowers. That would certainly seem to mean Jon Snow.

Some other key thoughts. Who is the Septa that is with Aegon? Is he actually Aegon or is he a Blackfyre? Is the Septon possibly Ashara Dayne who supposedly killed herself? Did Ned sleep with her as "The Quiet Wolf" or did his older brother who was more bold do so and we know liked to get frisky. We know she is about the right age and had a child which is unusual for a Septa (which are basically Nuns).

The really intriguing thing to me is "there are 3 heads to the dragon" which means 3 dragons and 3 dragon riders. We know Dany is one but who are the other 2? Jon certainly is a leading candidate is he is Rhaegar's son. How about the 3rd? Some have suggested Bran will warg a dragon but I don't see how he could be "The 3rd Head". Aegon is certainly possible but it would seem odd since he has been a minor player and just doesn't feel right.

My guess is Tyrion is the key. I think he is actually the ******* son of Aerys. It's clear that Aerys had a thing for Tyrion's mother and Tywin essentially quit as Hand because of it. We know he took too many liberties during "the bedding". We also know that Tywin certainly treats Tyrion as such. We also know Tyrion is fascinated with dragons and reads and dreams about them constantly. The most intriguing evidence to me is looking at Jon and Dany they have one thing in common, their mother died giving birth to them. The same can be said for Tyrion. The birth of a dragon can only happen with the death of someone as "only death pays for life".

Ok, so hopefully that will give us some fun discussion outside of who is spoiling what.

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My guess is Tyrion is the key. I think he is actually the ******* son of Aerys. It's clear that Aerys had a thing for Tyrion's mother and Tywin essentially quit as Hand because of it. We know he took too many liberties during "the bedding". We also know that Tywin certainly treats Tyrion as such. We also know Tyrion is fascinated with dragons and reads and dreams about them constantly. The most intriguing evidence to me is looking at Jon and Dany they have one thing in common, their mother died giving birth to them. The same can be said for Tyrion. The birth of a dragon can only happen with the death of someone as "only death pays for life".

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Interesting theory aggie93. Not one I have heard before. Is the bolded information from Tyrion's chapters in Book 5?

And didn't Tywin resign as Hand because of Jamie's appointment to the King's Guard?

I agree with the theory that Tyion somehow has Targaryn blood. It makes sense with his journey to Mereen and eventual meeting with Dany.

[This message has been edited by hudson2508 (edited 4/26/2013 11:01a).]

I think that is correct on Jon. Maybe the truth is discovered by Bran through the trees.

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I agree with the theory that Tyion somehow has Targaryn blood. It makes sense with his journey to Mereen and eventual meeting with Dany.

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I'm still not convinced on this point. The prophecy refers to a "lion" coming to Dany. If Tyrion is actually not a Lannister, then who is the lion?

Good post 93. Maybe the series ends with one or all three on a throne or thrones. Maybe Dany & Jon will hit it off and make more dragon babies.

did I imagine a chapter in which Jaime leaves riverrun with brienne after stoneheart nearly hangs her and after riverrun yields to jaime?

Tyrion could still be considered a Lion as his Mother was a Lannister, though she came from a cadet branch of the Lannisters she was still Tywin's cousin.

The info on Aerys interest in Joanna is from a Barristan chapter. Aerys apparently was also said to have said "It was a pity the tradition of First Night was banned" meaning he wanted to sleep with her. Its somewhat debatable as to why Tywin resigned as Hand but it is true that Aerys lust for Joanna was a huge problem between them and Jaime's rise to the KG in combination with Aerys marrying Rhaegar to a Dornish princess instead of Cersei were part of it. Interestingly Jaime was also raised to the KH at the Tourney of Harrenhall, that was just a HUGE event with so much of the plot starting from there and yet we know so little about it (only from a Bran chapter with the Reeds in Book 2 and a Barristan chapter).

Another huge plot line that is out there is how several Lords left Robb just before the RW and went to Howland Reed with Robb's will naming Jon his successor. Will that happen in the series? Those characters have not been cast that I can see (Maege Mormont and Galbert Glover). Since the writers know the end if they don't have that part it may say something about where the story is going. I'll be really bummed if they cut it though. They may not need to really cast it as those actors only will appear in that scene and then disappear for at least 2 books.