Lysa had out of wedlock sex with Petyr and had an abortion to terminate her pregnancy, and Jon Arryn was the only match they could find for the damaged goods that was Lysa Tully (possibly because her pregnancy proved that she was capable of having children). However, possibly due to the moon tea she drank years before, she had miscarriage after miscarriage with Jon Arryn.

[This message has been edited by Hobo Zombie (edited 6/4/2013 8:19p).]

Ned and Cat got married with Jon and Lysa. This was after Brandon was dead and it was time for war obviously. Ned/Cat was obviously continuation of the Cat/Brandon betrothal, but Jon/Lysa was to seal the alliance.

[This message has been edited by Jjxvi (edited 6/4/2013 8:54p).]

There have actually been some lengthy discussions on Westeros and other places about what Rickard Stark's real intentions were. Prior to him, most of the Starks married other Northmen. There was not even a Sept at Winterfell until Cat married Ned and he built it for her. Lord Rickard though clearly had ambitions. He arranged marriages with Brandon with the Tullys and Lyanna with the Baratheons. He fostered Ned in the Vale. Outside of a female married off to a Royce in the Vale the Starks just didn't marry outside of other Northern Houses. The Vale, the Iron Islands, and Dorne all rarely married outside of their liege Houses as well, it was more common in the Reach, Riverlands, Westerlands, and Stormlands.

What is curious about this was if you put in context with the paranoia of the Mad King. He thought the Starks were trying to build alliances to make a move against him. That may have been part of why he so gruesomely killed Rickard and Brandon instead of telling his son Rhaegar to return Lyanna. He feared the power of the Starks once they were leaving the confines of the North.

There is still a lot to know about the events prior to Robert's Rebellion that is the key to how everything else came to happen. The full tale of the Tourney of Harrenhall and the events leading up to it really has only been partially discussed. The past is the key to understanding the future in the story.

Great post

Speaking of tourneys, I don't know how they are going get across the Knight of the Laughing Tree, The Tower of Joy, etc, on the show without it being something like a big, awkward infodump from one of the Reeds.

I don't think it was ever mentioned in the books (though I could be wrong), but why was there never any retribution taken against the Freys for sitting on the sidelines during Robert's Rebellion? I know Robert basically forgave everyone who bent the knee, but it seems Hoster should have taken the opportunity to remind Walder who was bannerman to whom, maybe set an example for the rest. I mean, we all know what Tywin did to the Reynes...

Hoster not as brutal as Tywin, and it's likely hard to punish someone that says it took a long time to muster his force and showed up eventually.

"Can a Christian Watch Game of Thrones?"

<snip>

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The story lines continue to unfold, and Martin hasn't yet finished the final book that will serve as the template for the rest of the series. Strong characters and unpredictable narratives are sure to keep coming, and to keep viewers glued to the screen. But at the end will they find a "transcendent moral vision"?

That's the question that troubles Scott R. Paeth, who teaches Christian social ethics at DePaul University in Chicago.

"Thus far (Martin has) been fairly scornful of the idea that the end result of the political struggle is the establishment of social justice, and seems to be suggesting that, in the end, all succumbs to dust and entropy, or that on the whole those willing to give themselves wholly over to their will to power will ultimately prevail," Paeth wrote on his blog.

"How he ends his story will tell us much about the moral world in which he dwells."

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2013/06/04/game-of-thrones-christianity/2389553/

So he's implying that if Martin lets, say, the Lannisters prevail, or the dragons lay waste to the entire ASOIAF world, then he's some sort of unethical monster?

Why can't these people just enjoy a story for what it is? A story!

[This message has been edited by rhoswen (edited 6/5/2013 9:30a).]

Do you guys really need to post on the non-spoiler thread so much? It seems there are more book readers on there than non-book readers, and they clearly don't want you on that thread "helping" them. Aggie93 is the only one whose posts are actually helpful and non-condescending. Why is it so hard to take their advice and just leave them the F alone?? Let them do their theorizing and figure out the "history" of Westoros for themselves if they're so inclined...Jesus.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/oh-****-i-totally-forgot-that-happens,32673/

To access the above, you have to sub in the S word to undo TexAgs filters.

[This message has been edited by FightinAggie07 (edited 6/5/2013 10:40a).]

I love the onion. I need to remember to read it more often.

It's actually a good point on how Hoster dealt with the Frey's vs how Tywin dealt with the Reynes. Hoster dealt with Walder by disrespecting him instead of bringing him to heal or destroying him. For instance he called him "The Late Walder Frey" and refused to attend his weddings any longer or help him to marry off his children. With the Freys as his most powerful bannermen that was a foolish play.

He needed to make up with them, punish them severely, or destroy them. Instead he just let their hatred grow. Every major House stays closely allied with their primary bannermen or they bring them to heal. The Starks have a history of both. The Tyrells are famous for marrying Hightowers and Redwynes. The Martells only marry royalty or bannerman. The Lannisters have done both, Tywin's wife was a bannerman's daughter for instance.

The Tully's needed to be more like the Tyrells because they both ascended to their position by being chosen by the Targs, not because of long held tradition. Hoster was married to a Whent but he never married any of his children to bannermen and he tried to arrange his brother to marry a Lannister. Just a foolish move when you have a House like the Frey's with so much wealth and power underneath you to continue to scorn them.

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The general rule of thumb I have used is not to discuss things that aren't on the HBO website. The HBO website is purely about the show, has no spoilers, and actually has contradictions to the books. For instance it has Loras as the Heir to Highgarden and the only son to Mace Tyrell, in the books there is another brother named Willas who does not exist in the show and is the heir but cutting him made sense for brevity and he is really irrelevant. On that point though they actually had Willas on the Tyrell House family tree in Season 1 but have since removed him.

There are lots of "Inside the Episode" type features on the website that are designed to try to explain the importance of the political maneuverings. The show producers have made it clear they want people to know as much as they can to fully understand the show but they have limitations due to time and budget as to how much they can actually put on film. For instance they really would prefer to have a 12 episode season but it was decided it just wasn't feasible to get that done every year because of the scope of the show. The brevity isn't for creative or artistic purposes, that's part of why they are talking about doing a prequel series.

Personally I couldn't care less about being called a nerd or whatever for being so engaged with the show and books. It's the best fiction I've ever read and the best TV show I've ever seen. My life doesn't revolve around it, hell it is way behind Aggie football in terms of interests for me but it is still something I find fascinating and enjoyable. Keep on hatin' though.

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Agree with everything you said on the non-spoiler thread, 93, except about not having Willa's not being a big deal. With the show not adding him, that means that when Loras becomes a member of the King's guard, the Tyrells have not only lost their first in line male heir, they've lost their only male heir. You don't think the Tyrells would be absolutely pissed off to have that happen? You've seen how pissed Tywin was with Jaime.

We don't know if Loras is even going to become a Kingsguard. We're past the point in the story where that happens.

You know, you're right, thinking back, none of Loras's actions require him to be a member of the kingsguard in the books.

I threw that out as just a minor example. It does have some small potential consequences to how they take the story but it is easily fixable. I used that one because they actually changed from Season 1 to now as to whether or not Willas existed on the website.

It is interesting to me that the folks on the Non Spoiler thread have shifted over time. A lot of them have since converted to being readers or at least partial readers and thus some of the folks left there are kind of nutty. There is a group that is so hard core Non Reader they don't even want information discussed in the show to be corrected, no matter how obvious or wrong it is. It's as if someone could talk about how they didn't understand why Theon is being tortured because he is Robb's brother should just be uncorrected because they haven't been paying attention to the story. It is a fine line if you post over there for sure though. For me I find it fascinating to look at the show separately from the books but you have to be very careful as to what you discuss there. I kind of think of how I talk to my non reader wife about the show, wow was she mad at the RW.

Yeah, I think much of the backlash is due to BOCH getting on people's nerves over there, although I really don't see what is wrong with discussing the history and political aspects of the show that have been discussed by the show or show creators.

As for Loras, his potentional death now becomes a much bigger deal on the show compared to the books when they get to that point.

[This message has been edited by Negative Throckmorton (edited 6/5/2013 12:19p).]

I want them to take a victory lap and show Robb's mutilated body with the wolf's head

Some people just want to watch the world burn.

I have heard rumors there will be the wolf's head thing, that would be awesome imo. My only disappointment in the RW was they didn't make it look like Arya died, that was when I threw my book across the room. Can't wait for Arya to start truly becoming her badass self.

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Some people just want to watch the world burn.

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I do.

I wouldnt mind if they killed Balon Greyjoy and Davos/Mel/Stannis had the 2 kings dead but not 3 discussion. And Mel says something like "just you wait..."

I like the Balon idea. If they don't have the Beric-Catelyn kiss of life with Catelyn opening her eyes as the very last scene, I'll be pretty disappointed.

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I have heard rumors there will be the wolf's head thing, that would be awesome imo. My only disappointment in the RW was they didn't make it look like Arya died, that was when I threw my book across the room. Can't wait for Arya to start truly becoming her badass self.

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I keep hearing the Arya part, but I don't ever remember thinking she was dead. I took it to mean she got conked on the head. Anyone have a screenshot of that paragraph?

i don't totally mind them getting annoyed when BoCH goes super-nerd on little details (i think he just likes provoking people tbh) but when it's stuff like them only knowing 5 character names and being corrected on ones they miss (even when those names are clearly said multiple times on the show), or similar for different character relatonships, i don't see why THAT makes them mad. anything said in the show should be fair game IMO

I'm typing verbatim straight from the book:

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She saw the longaxe too, still wet with blood and brains. And Arya ran. Not for her brother now, not even for her mother, but for herself. She ran faster than she had ever run before, her head down and feet churning up the river, she ran from him as Mycah must have run.

His axe took her in the back of the head.

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That's exactly how it ended. I think it was meant as a cliffhanger for people to interpret the Hound killed her...I personally never thought that was what happened though.

I dont totally mind when they get annoyed. Nor do I mind when readers complain that Im discussing the show too much.


Its all very entertaining from my seat.

Is this the part where someone calls you out for trolling and you post the gif of Jennifer Lawrence?

i don't think he's necessarily trolling, but he does clearly get some satisfaction out of provoking people

I guess as long as BoCH is entertained, that is all that matters. What a dbag.

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I guess as long as BoCH is entertained, that is all that matters. What a dbag.

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It's entertaining for more than just him. Keep whining, that's pretty entertaining, too, dbag.

[This message has been edited by Hobo Zombie (edited 6/5/2013 2:50p).]

It is slightly entertaining, most of those posters have been around long enough to know what Bill is about.

Most people that catch an axehead from the Hound in the head seem to die. So probably something along those lines.

I don't know about you guys, but the only thing close to the reaction I had when I read the Red Wedding was reading Ramsay Bolton's "Basterd" letter (and the events that transpired shortly thereafter). Cold blooooded. Makes me stoked to see Ramsay scenes now that I actually know who that Basterd is.

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Your false king is dead Basterd. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red hoar.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, Basterd. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six hoars who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, *******, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your Basterd's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

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[This message has been edited by Baskin (edited 6/5/2013 4:21p).]

Ramsay is kind of insecure about the whole *******/trueborn thing, I think.