Count me as one that didn't like the change to Jon's supposed motive. If he's all out to be a hero and fight the WWs, how does that explain why he'll be willing to turn on the NW and lead the wildings to Castle Black to scale the wall with the Magnar?

The story about Jon being an outcast helps you think that he may have been forced into the NW and disenfranchised with the whole 7 Kingdoms based on the way he's been **** on because of his lack of parentage.

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and did anyone who wasn't at the premiere at A&M find the "they told me you lost your nose but I see it isn't that gruesome (paraphrased)" line from Cersei funny as well?

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I turned to my brother and shook my head since we both thought changing no nose to a scar was a cop out.

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BTW, I don't feel nearly as emotionally attached to Robb in the show as I did in the books where he was one of my favorite characters (prob the Volantis chick has screwed it up for me). I'm looking forward to the Red Wedding.

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I don't know how you became so attached to him in the book when he had no POV chapters. The show focused much more heavily on his character development. The only Robb we got in the books was from Catelyn or from war reports.

Robb is a more realized character in the show. Tywin, too.

A main actor not having a nose is a budgetary impossibility. You can't remove a nose using makeup. It would have to be a frame-by-frame digital effect.

Agreed. I was very confused at everyone who was so sad when he died in the books - I wasn't very attached to him at all. In fact, Catelyn POV chapters were extremely annoying to read prior to the red wedding.

I still want to know if Robb legitimized Jon and named him his heir before heading off to the red wedding.

The funny thing is that having read all the available books, we know about the cliffhanger involving Jon at the end of the last book, and we all wonder what that means. However, consider the following:

(1) The books have remained silent on the import of that document after it was signed/witnessed.

(2) The HBO producers purportedly know where GRRM plans to take his story.

(3) This season will show the red wedding.

SO, if HBO makes it a point to show the argument between Cat and Robb regarding Robb's heir and legitimizing Jon before they leave for the red wedding, do we have "Chekov's Will" so to speak? And if we can infer that this issue will play a role in the future of the show, then do we have a half-answer to the ultimate question regarding Jon at the close of the last book (no, not the one about his parentage)?

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A main actor not having a nose is a budgetary impossibility. You can't remove a nose using makeup. It would have to be a frame-by-frame digital effect.

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Yeah he's really ugly in the book. Mismatched eyes, sliced off nose. Kinda glad we don't have to see that on TV.

The scar vs nose thing is fine imo. It doesn't really change the story but it saves money. I'd much rather make that compromise than have fewer dragon and giant scenes for instance.

I guess my attachment to Robb in the books was he was trying so hard to fight against the odds and keep his family together. I also thought he was more trapped into the marriage by honor as opposed to just saying "screw it" as he does in the show. Right up until the RW I thought he would be a guy that would have a POV anytime, really got blindsided. I hated Cat after she let Jaime go, still do. Everything she touches turns to ****.

Theon is an example of a character I hated in the books but feel much more attached to in the show. Alfie Allen has done the 2nd best acting job behind Peter Dinklage imo.

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Theon is an example of a character I hated in the books but feel much more attached to in the show. Alfie Allen has done the 2nd best acting job behind Peter Dinklage imo.

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I hated Theon in first few books, but when he comes back as Reek, I really empathize with him.

After re-watching it again last night, I realized I missed that the guy who survived at Harrenhall was Qyburn.

Looks like they cast an appropriately creepy looking guy for the role. Well done.

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After re-watching it again last night, I realized I missed that the guy who survived at Harrenhall was Qyburn.

Looks like they cast an appropriately creepy looking guy for the role. Well done.

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Picked up on that too. Didn't even realize he was cast, so that was pretty cool to see

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After re-watching it again last night, I realized I missed that the guy who survived at Harrenhall was Qyburn.

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Heck, I stepped away for a minute and when I came back I had no clue where they were at and why Bolton was with Robb.

My problem is more that Mance Rayder accepts Jon's reason, not that Jon gives it. Mance isn't interested in fighting the White Walkers, he's seen them in action way too much. He's interested in saving his people by getting them south of the wall.

from the non-spoiler thread

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Great to see Ser Selmy and the Dragons grown up. In the first two seasons the worst parts of the show were the Dany/Dothraki parts because she was so far away from an actual attack on the throne that it just took away from the political theater happening in actual Westeros. Now that the dragons are big and she's finding armies, at least the "long game" has actually started.

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Boy are they in for two books of disappointment.

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Boy are they in for two books of disappointment.

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I was thinking something similar. It would not bother me one bit if they skipped over Mereen.

FYI, the "non-spoiler" thread is full of nothing but people who have read the books. It's a tell-tale sign when you can spell "John Arryn" and "Petyr Baelish" correctly.

I've got to help them out just a little.

Glad they cut out Fat Belwas. That dude was the start of many, many useless page-wasting characters in the Qarth-> Meereen journey.

I liked Fat Belwas.

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FYI, the "non-spoiler" thread is full of nothing but people who have read the books

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Yup. that thread is about to turn into a madhouse. will be interesting to see.

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FYI, the "non-spoiler" thread is full of nothing but people who have read the books. It's a tell-tale sign when you can spell "John Arryn" and "Petyr Baelish" correctly.

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For the record, I typically google search the name before I try posting. I don't think that really means anything.

What document?

Where the Non Spoiler thread is going to get interesting is they are going further away from the books and it will be too hard for people not to think in terms of the show and books being different. It's hard not to think ahead essentially. More and more characters will be combined or left out. Valuable screen time will be used on characters and situations that don't happen in the books. The story ling itself will shift because they simply can't tell it as is so they are really going to be telling a new version of it.

If you go to the reviews on Westeros for instance they get their panties in a serious wad about anything that isn't true to the books. Many of them even hate Margaery's character which has gotten much more interesting imo with the strong actress they cast for her but she is going to demand screen time.

One other thing I forgot to mention as to one other change I REALLY hated was how they brought back Khal Drogo in the House of the Undying sequence. That was such a copout to throw out the beefcake dude again instead of using that for any real prophecies. I loved the HOTU in the book (though it confused me the first time I read it) and have probably re-read that chapter 15 times to catch all the little prophecies going on. They could have at least had the "3's" prophecy.

Up for consideration... this exchange

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So, Qyburn was one of the king's guards?

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He's a "de-chained" Maester because he "experimented" on humans.

He becomes more important later in the story.

"De-Chained" = kicked out

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Based on what you know from the HBO series, is this a spoiler?

If you think that is a spoiler then go back over there and vote the post down.





Here's a SPOILER!!!

Qyburn keeps Jamie alive after his hand is cut-off!!!!

Qyburn becomes a council member!!!!

I just posted over there. The Qyburn info is a spoiler because we don't know if that is what they have intended for Qyburn and it is confusing. Right now he is just a half dead guy they found. It's not cool to say "This is who he is and he is really important" because A) We don't know and B)It helps to give away plot information.

If you post there be very aware of what has been said IN THE SHOW and what has not. Background info should only be on something they simply don't have screentime to explain.

I saw your post aggie93, and I understand, I still don't believe I "ruined" any imaginable future plot-line.

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they simply don't have screentime to explain.

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To me it was something they screwed up and confused viewers about and need some slight explaining.

I didn't say you did hurt the plot but you did give information that can be confusing to someone who hasn't read the books. The main thing that concerned me was how you mentioned how you didn't recall whether or not they said where LF was from but then went and talked about him anyway. As it turns out they did talk about him but don't mention book info unless you are sure of its context to the show. It's just not cool to people that don't want any "spoiler" and especially because the show is becoming more and more its own story.

The only reason I think it's a spoiler is because HBO clearly wants to surprise the audience by revealing that this kindly looking half-dead old man is really an evil SOB.

You didn't ruin any major plot, though. Unlike my buddy that mistakenly texted me instead of our mutual friend as I was halfway through book one with his shock about the Red Wedding. That was a dark day for me.

HBO has not deviated from background information on any of the characters that they have not outright removed or swapped with a different character. Saying how LF got his nickname is meaningless. That does not mean I don't understand your point.

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The only reason I think it's a spoiler is because HBO clearly wants to surprise the audience by revealing that this kindly looking half-dead old man is really an evil SOB.

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Understood. I'll remove the "experimented" part.

As I said you were actually correct on LF. He told his story in Season 1 and all you did is fill in a few gaps which was fine. My point was more that you seemed unsure as to what was in the book and what was in the show and posted anyway. That's a bad idea. If you don't know for sure then don't post there.

Have we seen any of the brave companions, or are they going to just nix all that? Or do we not see them before Jaime and Brienne run into them? I cannot recall.

They were in book 2 when Arya was at Harrenhall. Their side swap there after Bolton took the castle is what led to Jaime losing his hand.

You could probably leave them out of the show, though.

Yeah I kind of also thought the qyburn post was a little too revealing...even in the books the reveal of his real personality is very slow and terrifying, not all upfront

I'm sure it was intentional for him to just barely be mentioned this early in