***Official USMNT-WCQ Octagonal Thread***

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littlebitofhifi
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2:30p, 5/18/22
AG
Sharing an ownership group isn't the same as "being supported by". Both in Premier League/FA WSL and MLS/NWSL, the teams are quite separate in operations & financial management between men's and women's. Portland being one of the few exceptions.

NWSL is actually finding the model of ownership groups NOT tied to MLS teams to be really effective and potentially more sustainable for operating as an independent league. There was actually a good article this week with the commissioner on this topic.

https://theathletic.com/3315203/2022/05/16/nwsl-expansion-berman-salt-lake/
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Aston94
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3:15p, 5/18/22
AG
The equal pay argument is just so tiring. It is a huge opportunity for virtue signaling. But really the men make so much more on the club level (no equal pay there, huh ladies?) that these USMNT bonuses are not a huge deal for them.

US Soccer caved to political pressure. It makes no sense, but that is the world we live in today. I hope the women didn't just go and mess up the women's game like I feared they may have. We will see.
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jeffk
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4:25p, 5/18/22
AG
I think the new deal is net positive for the USSF (a definite gain for the WNT and not a huge change for the MNT). I think I've said before that I don't care about how much $$$ the different teams bring in, players should get paid the same for doing the same job. The USSF isn't a publicly-owned business and their top priorities should be to grow the domestic game and compete at the highest levels. I think this change helps those things happen.

No idea how this'll impact the NWSL though - they may have just damaged their ability to grow the league.
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Aston94
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In reply to jeffk • 5:00p, 5/18/22
AG
jeffk said:
I think I've said before that I don't care about how much $$$ the different teams bring in, players should get paid the same for doing the same job.

I love you man, but I think we will always disagree on this point, and that is fine. Should the back up keeper make the same as a star forward? Are they doing the same job? The men are playing at a different level of interest and competitiveness throughout the world. The women have one team in their confederation that can give them a match. It isn't the same job, the men's game is infinitely more competitive and difficult on a national level. The amount of scrutiny and eyeballs on a WCQ in Azteca is different than a game against Mexico for the women. It just is. That's fine to admit it. The women's game generates no where near the revenue globally that the men's game does.

But, again, the men have accepted it because at the end of the day they are playing more for the honor of representing their country and less for the paycheck than the women are because they make so much more at the club level. So I understand why they would agree to this.
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jeffk
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In reply to Aston94 • 5:04p, 5/18/22
AG
It's not impacting the way I view anyone who disagrees or anything, but yeah, I see "appearing for the senior NT" to be the same job regardless of gender. You're definitely right that the level of play is different between the MNT and WNT, I just don't think that should figure into pay structure for a national federation.

I still love you.
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deadbq03
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In reply to jeffk • 5:19p, 5/18/22
AG
I view it similar to being an engineer at Volkswagen vs an engineer at Ferrari designing the exact same part.

It's the same line of work, but it's not the same job.

And really that analogy above only works if Volkswagen only hires Germans, and there's a crap ton of German engineers, and Ferrari only hires Italians, and there's only a handful of quality engineers in Italy… that is to say, that it's not only different levels of work, but there's also a massive difference in talent pool. There are so many women who are right on the cusp of being talented enough to be on USWNT (many are arguably more talented but are held back by the tenured stars). Name a person on USWNT and they're replaceable without much of a drop off. But for men, if we lose a star, the next guy is going to be noticeably worse.

It's simply economics, and both sides of supply and demand favor a higher price for men.
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jeffk
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In reply to deadbq03 • 5:22p, 5/18/22
AG
Except that the economics of running an organization like the USSF and a publicly-owned business like a car manufacturer are different. Like I said, the amount of $$$ each senior NT brings in is inconsequential I think.
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aggiebird02
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In reply to jeffk • 5:32p, 5/18/22
You sound like a commie.

They should get paid the same? Then who should pay them? Does the money and interest each team generates not mean ANYTHING to you?

Seriously, jeffk, straight up now tell me… Why are you against paying each team what they earn? Because it affects your feelz?

The women are stealing money from the men. The women are taking money from the men that the men earned themselves. That's messed up, and if you can't see and understand that then I don't know what else there is to say to you that can help you back to reality…
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jeffk
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In reply to aggiebird02 • 6:00p, 5/18/22
AG
Lol. You got me - I'm a dirty Red. Stop being weird.

I've already said that I don't think the USSF needs to operate as if their bottom line profits are the primary concern.
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aggiebird02
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In reply to jeffk • 6:17p, 5/18/22
Answer the question:

The women are taking money they didn't earn from the men (stealing the money the men earned), and you're okay with this?
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jeffk
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In reply to aggiebird02 • 6:41p, 5/18/22
AG
Both the men and the women are performing their contractual duties for an agreed upon sum of money. That sum has never been tied a percentage of gate receipts or jersey sales or anything as far as I know. Now all parties are apparently in agreement on that sum being equal between the WNT and MNT.

Also, I'm happy to engage in discussion, but I don't work for you. I do offer consulting for a nominal fee if you would like to employ me and demand my services.
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aggiebird02
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In reply to jeffk • 6:42p, 5/18/22
jeffk said:
Both the men and the women are performing their contractual duties for an agreed upon sum of money. That sum has never been tied a percentage of gate receipts or jersey sales or anything as far as I know. Now all parties are apparently in agreement on that sum being equal between the WNT and MNT.
Why don't you just say, "Yes, I'm okay with the women stealing the men's money."? Because that's exactly what you're saying…
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aggiebird02
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In reply to jeffk • 6:47p, 5/18/22
jeffk said:

Also, I'm happy to engage in discussion, but I don't work for you. I do offer consulting for a nominal fee if you would like to employ me and demand my services.
Aww, how cute you are, acting like you're important.

You're a leftist commie saying leftist commie things and trying to be pithy and aloof about it…

Typical
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jeffk
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In reply to aggiebird02 • 6:49p, 5/18/22
AG
You're being weird again.
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aggiebird02
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In reply to jeffk • 6:50p, 5/18/22
No, you're being commie again…
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littlebitofhifi
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In reply to aggiebird02 • 7:14p, 5/18/22
AG
aggiephoenix02 said:
No, you're being commie again…
If all you want to do is name call, take it to a different forum. jeffk, aston94 and others have done a nice job of explaining their points of view and being ok to agree to disagree on an admittedly controversial topic. You don't seem to care to dialogue, so just let it go.
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aggiebird02
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In reply to littlebitofhifi • 7:22p, 5/18/22
There isn't much to it for dialogue, the women are taking more than their share, and it's from the men's slice of pie, and that's straight up commie. Calling a spade a spade isn't name calling. These people need to know what they are espousing!

Edit: Communist/socialist ideology needs to be exposed AND CALLED OUT, especially when the posters saying it don't realize when they're posting it…
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AG@RICE
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10:56p, 5/18/22
AG
Sometimes Texags is like hanging out with my in-laws. I'll be sitting around having a very straight forward conversation, then I'll leave to grab a beer/take a piss/etc, and I'll come back and everyone is talking politics, name-calling and yelling.

What the ****...

Its not even your money. Why do ya'll care so much?

I'd prefer most of it just got reinvested into youth development. I'm just trying to ****ing win.
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PatAg
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In reply to jeffk • 12:26a, 5/19/22
AG
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KCup17
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9:20a, 5/19/22
AG
Honestly as an international superstar who plays for a huge European club, why does what I get paid by my national team matter? I make more than enough money from the club team I play for. The money from the NT is inconsequential.

Now on the other hand it makes sense to me why the women would argue for equal pay, whether a good argument or not. There just isn't enough money in the women's leagues. So for the WNT players it makes sense why they would go to the USSF asking for more money to make up for the lack of money in their league.
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tysker
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In reply to KCup17 • 9:42a, 5/19/22
AG
KCup17 said:
Honestly as an international superstar who plays for a huge European club, why does what I get paid by my national team matter? I make more than enough money from the club team I play for. The money from the NT is inconsequential.

Now on the other hand it makes sense to me why the women would argue for equal pay, whether a good argument or not. There just isn't enough money in the women's leagues. So for the WNT players it makes sense why they would go to the USSF asking for more money to make up for the lack of money in their league.
For many of the MNT players, they also incur travel complications, extra wear and tear, and time away from your club can mean someone takes your spot. We typically understand and justify when a euro-based player rejects a NT call up. Players on the WNT dont have the same structural issues bwtween their clubs and the NT.

Also, when you go see the MNT you're there to watch the team and maybe even the opponents. If CP, Reyna, Weston, or Adams dont play we as fans dont feel let down; in fact we're often curious as to how the team performs without them. The players dont matter as much as the outcome.

Can the same be said about the WNT? When the WNT are on tour, you're there to see the headliner players perform. The average fan isnt there to see a bunch of second-teamers breaking down a 5-4-1 low block. The opponents and outcome often seems secondary to the "show."
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deadbq03
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10:26a, 5/19/22
AG
One final comment that I've made before on these threads but I think it's worth repeating.

One thing that the men's team faces that the women's team doesn't is dual-nationals… and again, this relates to my previous talent pool argument.

There is more than enough domestic women's talent to fill the USWNT. Shoot, we have enough talent to make multiple teams, and they'd all be highly competitive in the World Cup.

But for the men, we frequently get guys that are dual-nationals. They do have another choice… Pepi could've gone to Mexico, Dest could've gone Dutch, etc. USMNT pay needs to be competitive worldwide.

It's simple market economics. The men can choose to not play, or play for someone else - so you need to incentivize them choosing to play for us. The women literally have no other choice… they're not making enough at the club level, and even if we had a bunch of dual nationals, they're not gonna get better money/prestige elsewhere either. USWNT is the pinnacle of womens soccer in the world.
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akm91
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In reply to deadbq03 • 12:04p, 5/19/22
AG
Quote:
But for the men, we frequently get guys that are dual-nationals. They do have another choice… Pepi could've gone to Mexico, Dest could've gone Dutch, etc. USMNT pay needs to be competitive worldwide.
I would disagree with you about needing the pay being competitive from national team perspective. In men's game, as other's have mentioned, what they make from their clubs far outweighs what you get from NT; especially for the star players. If US had won all the WCQ matches, players would have earned $140K, $10K/win, not counting other bonuses. That's less than what Pulisic makes in a week at Chelsea.

I think USMNT needs to do a couple of things to continue to be attractive to dual nationals:
  • competitive on world stage with a more aesthetically pleasing type of soccer
  • ease of integration into the team culture; helped by getting involved with U-17 and U-19's (Pepi played on U-17 and Dest played on U-17 and U-19)
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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ThunderCougarFalconBird
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In reply to KCup17 • 12:46p, 5/19/22
AG
KCup17 said:
Honestly as an international superstar who plays for a huge European club, why does what I get paid by my national team matter? I make more than enough money from the club team I play for. The money from the NT is inconsequential.
As other posters explained, there are lots of big risk factors associated with NT duty -- the biggest one being getting CONCACAF'd in a WCQ and all of a sudden you're out of first team duty for club and country for eight months because you need knee surgery and you have to navigate the pitfalls of getting back into favor and the starting XI when you're fully fit.

So like I said all along -- the question of what the women get paid compared to the men is irrelevant. The men will play if you pay them enough. The women did a nice job of applying political pressure to get their pound of flesh. In the long run, we will all see if the USWNT benefits from having 0 salaried players but more lucrative upside.
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ThunderCougarFalconBird
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In reply to tysker • 12:49p, 5/19/22
AG
tysker said:

Can the same be said about the WNT? When the WNT are on tour, you're there to see the headliner players perform. The average fan isnt there to see a bunch of second-teamers breaking down a 5-4-1 low block. The opponents and outcome often seems secondary to the "show."
What I call the "Disney on Ice" effect. Fans want to be sure they get to see Micky, Minnie, and all of their favorite princesses.

So I am interested in what the effect will be when USWNT management is incentivized to pick the best roster available at the time instead of a roster with well known "stars" even though better players might be available.
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KCup17
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In reply to ThunderCougarFalconBird • 1:35p, 5/19/22
AG
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying for the MNT playing is less about money and more about pride for the country and flag.
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akm91
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In reply to KCup17 • 1:44p, 5/19/22
AG
For many players it's pathway to make it to Europe; especially to get work permit to play in EPL.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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carl spacklers hat
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2:46p, 5/19/22
How much revenue does the USMNT generate annually, or better yet, every 4 year cycle (which might make more sense following the WC calendar)?

How much revenue does the USWNT generate over the same 4 year cycle?

If each team generates relatively similar revenue for US Soccer, I see no problem with an equal pay scale. HOWEVER, if there is a revenue gap between teams, over that total 4 year cycle, then equal pay for unequal revenue generation is problematic. Why would an employee who generates 2x revenue agree to a pay scale at the same rate as an employee who only generates 1x revenue? This is the sports entertainment business. There is a reason superstars earn a higher wage than an average player and that is because of the revenue generated by each is vastly different.
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PatAg
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3:47p, 5/19/22
AG
Basically it came down to the men deciding between sharing the revenue, or facing the court of public moronic opinion under the guise of "equal pay"

I look forward to seeing what all the cherry picked metrics the wnt have been parading around look like after the men's world cup this year
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jeffk
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3:53p, 5/19/22
AG
I mean the US MNT players association didn't have to do anything. They could have continued to let USSF and FIFA take it on the chin. Instead they decided to take pretty decisive action and redo their deal. And their public statements have all seemed pretty genuinely positive about the move. You can be pessimistic and doubt their sincerity if you wish, but it really seems like they didn't truly care about the difference in money they lost with the new deal and wanted to make a statement by equalizing wages.
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deadbq03
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3:59p, 5/19/22
AG
Good discussions. I'll certainly lighten my stance… it's absolutely true for the stars like Pulisic that money doesn't matter… and while I'm sure the MLS guys like the money, the exposure is far better and will lead to lots more money (see Pepi).

Not sure how true this is, but I found this article pretty interesting about England. They pay men and women 2k a game. They explicitly mention that the men donate theirs (again, speaking to how the money doesn't matter).

https://www.thenationalnews.com/sport/football/2021/07/10/do-england-players-get-paid-for-international-matches/

I still don't like it for non-soccer reasons which I won't get into again because last time I did, it didn't work out well, but this certainly isn't an egregiously bad move.
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carl spacklers hat
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In reply to jeffk • 4:13p, 5/19/22
jeffk said:
I mean the US MNT players association didn't have to do anything. They could have continued to let USSF and FIFA take it on the chin. Instead they decided to take pretty decisive action and redo their deal. And their public statements have all seemed pretty genuinely positive about the move. You can be pessimistic and doubt their sincerity if you wish, but it really seems like they didn't truly care about the difference in money they lost with the new deal and wanted to make a statement by equalizing wages.
Because the difference in wages was so insignificant to the men that it really wasn't worth fighting over. Anyone published what the drop in men's pay rate will be for USMNT work?

I'm also curious to see what the average club salary is for a USMNT player versus the average club salary of a USWNT player. I think that metric will cause a lot of lightbulbs to turn on when one can see that for players averaging, say, $3 million per year in club salary, a cut of $30k or $40k for USMNT duty really is a drop in the bucket. At the same time, those folks will see womens' salaries are significantly less than their male counterparts (which stands to reason because the men's sport brings in billions more than the women's version) and it becomes easy to see why the women were motivated to act in the manner they did in pursuing this. For the women, it IS a sum that makes a difference in their annual wages.

But, its still robbing Peter to pay Mary.
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jeffk
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In reply to carl spacklers hat • 4:17p, 5/19/22
AG
Yeah, that's what I'm saying - the men saw an opportunity to do something meaningful and took it. You can call it altruism or something more selfish, but they're going to come out looking pretty great here.

Also they got childcare coverage for while they're on international duty, so that's something.
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carl spacklers hat
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In reply to jeffk • 4:18p, 5/19/22
jeffk said:
Also they got childcare coverage for while they're on international duty, so that's something.
Dude! Why wasn't tis mentioned earlier? This makes is all okay now!!!
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PatAg
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In reply to jeffk • 4:21p, 5/19/22
AG
jeffk said:
I mean the US MNT players association didn't have to do anything. They could have continued to let USSF and FIFA take it on the chin. Instead they decided to take pretty decisive action and redo their deal. And their public statements have all seemed pretty genuinely positive about the move. You can be pessimistic and doubt their sincerity if you wish, but it really seems like they didn't truly care about the difference in money they lost with the new deal and wanted to make a statement by equalizing wages.

I only say have to because federation said that was the only way they would accept a new bargaining agreement. So it was accept the sharing or the federation would shift the blame to the men
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