***Official USMNT-WCQ Octagonal Thread***

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fig96
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Handy chart:


jeffk
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PatAg said:

Apparently a real chance they may move the venue


It'll be really interesting to see how USSF attempts to spin that decision.
DeangeloVickers
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We had no idea it would be this cold in Minnesota in February. We want to move the game where one of our board members will make the most money
mrmill3218
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https://deadspin.com/ok-maybe-it-s-time-to-have-a-talk-about-gregg-berhalte-1848454580

This guy calls out what I've been saying for years. US Soccer pushes MLS selections to promote their league.

A lot of these players have no business in the national team. He also calls out what I've been saying for years - 3G essentially has no idea what he's doing. We are wasting our most talented team in our history.
B$Weigem
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PatAg said:

jeffk said:


So you could just slot Acosta in for Adams...or you could go bold and slide McKennie back and bring on Luca De La Torre for more attacking on field.
Knowing Gregg, I'd say touting Michael Bradley out there isn't entirely out of the question.
tysker
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mrmill3218 said:

https://deadspin.com/ok-maybe-it-s-time-to-have-a-talk-about-gregg-berhalte-1848454580

This guy calls out what I've been saying for years. US Soccer pushes MLS selections to promote their league.

A lot of these players have no business in the national team. He also calls out what I've been saying for years - 3G essentially has no idea what he's doing. We are wasting our most talented team in our history.
Author is boring. Replacing Kellyn Acosta, Jordan Morris, and Paul Arriola with Luca De La Torre, Jordan Pefok and Josh Sargent? If those guys are the problems and solutions, we have a player pool issue.

Pepi is an MLS guy
Tajon Buchanan is an MLS guy
Richie Laryea is an MLS guy

Quote:

We are wasting our most talented team in our history
Is our talent that better than Canada's? Right now,would you rather have Canada's top 4-5 players or our top 4-5 players?
TRM
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Canada's top 4 players, but only cause their coach puts them in a position to succeed. I can't say the same about Ggg and our top 4.
JJxvi
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Berhalter is not picking and playing Gyasi Zardes to promote MLS. The US does not now have and has never had a player pool where none of its best players play in MLS. Berhalter is picking and playing Zardes because he's more scared to play in an unconventional way without a striker and have it all go wrong than he is to play whatever striker he has and have them not play well. Gyasi Zardes was likely just the closest player to plug and play in the tactic already chosen.
jeffk
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I'd argue that Berhalter knows exactly what he's doing, it's just not what you (and sometimes me) prefer and when they don't get a result, it's easy to get frustrated and call for him to be fired.

I don't like the high level of roster churn Berhalter seems to enjoy. By this point in qualifying, I'd prefer to have our go-to guys established and ride them as hard as possible (and in GB's defense, he's done that at certain spots in the line-up, but not as much as I would personally). I think GB puts a TON of stock in how guys are performing for their club... for the middle of the pack players - he doesn't stick to that metric in certain cases for our elite guys like Pulisic or our GKs. I don't like bringing in a different set of depth guys every single qualifying window and leaving talented players out (Pefok, LDLT, Sargent, Hoppe, etc.). I don't think there's an "MLS quota" I just think GB overthinks the situations of guys and wants to have a huge pool of players with at least a bare minimum of camp time. And that hurts cohesion and overall talent level long-term.

Two other things I'll add here because I'm thinking about them:

1) CANADA IS A GOOD TEAM - I'm tired of seeing folks talk and write about how this is a humiliating loss and that it's somehow derailed the national team. Going on the road anywhere in CONCACAF and getting points is difficult. Canada is playing the best soccer in the region currently and we were on their turf (literally). We didn't play well (honestly they didn't either) but Canada came out with the intention of bunkering and fouling and looking for a chance to steal a goal on a counter with their best attacking players (two of which would start for the USMNT).

2) It's difficult to break down a compact, bunkered, and disciplined team. I've seen so many folks just screaming that the US should have "switched tactics" to generate more potent offense. When you have outside backs who can't swing in crosses with any sort of precision and midfielders who can't beat defenders 1v1, there aren't many tactical adjustments left to make.

I do think we absolutely need to get Adams and McKennie to look to advance the ball quicker. I also think we need to play Pulisic out on the right or centrally - he continually clogs up the middle of the field as an inverted winger. Having Weah and Zimmerman back for tomorrow is huge. Reyna *could* be a huge difference maker too. (I thought the Canada game had Hoppe's name written all over it.) In the discussion of whether it's a talent thing or a scheme thing... it's probably a mix of both. We like to possess the ball and much of our opposition in region will allow us to do so. Which is fine if you can generate scoring chances... which we currently aren't. Our best offensive players are playing pretty crappy right now. Pulisic, Aaronson, Pepi (?) all are on a cold streak. We're often passing on good shot opportunities and waiting for perfect ones, which will get you a ton of blocked or deflected or missed chances.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble. Going to go check the Minnesota weather and start the game thread.
jeffk
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TRM said:

Canada's top 4 players, but only cause their coach puts them in a position to succeed. I can't say the same about Ggg and our top 4.


This is absolutely false. I'm old enough to remember the *****ing and moaning about how "ugly and passive" our bunker and counter style was a couple cycles ago.
KCup17
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You are bang on the money.
JJxvi
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This thread is basically a disaster every road game...its weird.
TRM
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Unfortunately, Hoppe has a playing time problem in Spain and that goes to your in-form selections.
jeffk
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Oh, I know that's why GB didn't bring him in. I would have anyway because he has something this team needs.
tysker
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jeffk said:

TRM said:

Canada's top 4 players, but only cause their coach puts them in a position to succeed. I can't say the same about Ggg and our top 4.


This is absolutely false. I'm old enough to remember the *****ing and moaning about how "ugly and passive" our bunker and counter style was a couple cycles ago.
Is LD, Dempsey, C.Reyna, MB90, Dolo, McBride, Jermaine, Run DMB > CP, Weah, Weston, Adams, Dest, Musah? Obviously the first set didnt play all together. Just a fun thought experiment.
jeffk
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Definitely a different style of play and mindset between the two groups.
akm91
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jeffk said:

Definitely a different style of play and mindset between the two groups.
We never tried to implement a proactive approach to soccer during Dempsey, Lando, McBride and Jones' times. I'm disappointed that it's still very disjointed in the way we play from one half to another, game to game. However, the Mexico match in November should thrill all USMNT fans on what we're trying to achieve on a consistent basis.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
PatAg
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jeffk said:

TRM said:

Canada's top 4 players, but only cause their coach puts them in a position to succeed. I can't say the same about Ggg and our top 4.


This is absolutely false. I'm old enough to remember the *****ing and moaning about how "ugly and passive" our bunker and counter style was a couple cycles ago.
Yep, we have made the decision(in my opinion correcly) to leave this style of play behind because it can only get you so far.

We are in the growing stages pain (both with our player pool age and the process itself) of trying to become a more proactive team so that we can actually enter a World Cup expecting to win games and have a real shot at winning the whole thing.
PatAg
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Not sure I would be using deadspin to support my conspiracy theories
tysker
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jeffk said:

Definitely a different style of play and mindset between the two groups.
I think it was Jason from Best Soccer Show that said this Canadian was like the US team from 20 years ago. Playing long ball, speedy counterattacking soccer with better athletes than technical soccer players. And more importantly Canada is playing with a chip on their shoulder.

I think this US team is pressing too hard + Gregg's system being overly tactical
aggiephoenix02
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PatAg said:

jeffk said:

TRM said:

Canada's top 4 players, but only cause their coach puts them in a position to succeed. I can't say the same about Ggg and our top 4.


This is absolutely false. I'm old enough to remember the *****ing and moaning about how "ugly and passive" our bunker and counter style was a couple cycles ago.
Yep, we have made the decision(in my opinion correcly) to leave this style of play behind because it can only get you so far.

We are in the growing stages pain (both with our player pool age and the process itself) of trying to become a more proactive team so that we can actually enter a World Cup expecting to win games and have a real shot at winning the whole thing.
The problem is getting through Concacaf, the disruptive brutality of play that's allowed and the refs with agendas makes that style difficult to perform well…
PatAg
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aggiephoenix02 said:

PatAg said:

jeffk said:

TRM said:

Canada's top 4 players, but only cause their coach puts them in a position to succeed. I can't say the same about Ggg and our top 4.


This is absolutely false. I'm old enough to remember the *****ing and moaning about how "ugly and passive" our bunker and counter style was a couple cycles ago.
Yep, we have made the decision(in my opinion correcly) to leave this style of play behind because it can only get you so far.

We are in the growing stages pain (both with our player pool age and the process itself) of trying to become a more proactive team so that we can actually enter a World Cup expecting to win games and have a real shot at winning the whole thing.
The problem is getting through Concacaf, the disruptive brutality of play that's allowed and the refs with agendas makes that style difficult to perform well…
Well, I dont think you make the decision to change how we approach the game with just concacaf in mind. You make it with the world stage in mind.

This is not me defending Gregg in any way, but more discussing the overall mindset of why we changed how we play. Its also ultimately up the player pool continuing to develop and raise their ceiling.
aggiephoenix02
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Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you, I'm just pointing out Concacaf. It's like riding through the ghetto in a Rolls Royce…
jeffk
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And honestly, Canada is going to have the deal with the same challenges the US did back when we relied on the smash and grab. Eventually you run into a team you can't counter and can break your low block down. I absolutely think that MLS has helped Canada raise their level of play tremendously, but they aren't going to get a Davies every couple of years and their depth is always going to cause them issues (because their national identity isn't centered on soccer and their population isn't big enough to get a huge enough pool to draw from). They'll eventually settle back in behind the US and Mexico in the region long-term, I think. They'll probably still be a thorn in our side, but I think the US will win more head-to-head matches than they will.
tysker
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Mexico is having a similar problem as well no? They want to be WC contenders, not just win Gold Cups. They are looking to play at the next level but its unclear if the coach and players are there yet.
Rudyjax
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Quote:

1) CANADA IS A GOOD TEAM - I'm tired of seeing folks talk and write about how this is a humiliating loss and that it's somehow derailed the national team. Going on the road anywhere in CONCACAF and getting points is difficult. Canada is playing the best soccer in the region currently and we were on their turf (literally). We didn't play well (honestly they didn't either) but Canada came out with the intention of bunkering and fouling and looking for a chance to steal a goal on a counter with their best attacking players (two of which would start for the USMNT).
Canada is a team. We're a bunch of individuals playing not to make a mistake.
jeffk
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Yeah, no, I don't agree with that. You don't accomplish what we have in qualifying and in previous tournaments without some modicum of shared tactics and direction. It hasn't looked good the past two matches, but we're not falling apart.
Rudyjax
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jeffk said:

Yeah, no, I don't agree with that. You don't accomplish what we have in qualifying and in previous tournaments without some modicum of shared tactics and direction. It hasn't looked good the past two matches, but we're not falling apart.
I just think they don't play well together and they're afraid to make a mistake, but I do agree Canada is a better team.
jeffk
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Being currently in bad form doesn't negate positive things they have done in the past.

If McKennie's header goes in and Turner saves the shot on Canada's opener, do you still feel the same way?
Rudyjax
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jeffk said:

Being currently in bad form doesn't negate positive things they have done in the past.

If McKennie's header goes in and Turner saves the shot on Canada's opener, do you still feel the same way?
I'm not saying that.
fig96
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jeffk said:

Yeah, no, I don't agree with that. You don't accomplish what we have in qualifying and in previous tournaments without some modicum of shared tactics and direction. It hasn't looked good the past two matches, but we're not falling apart.
But looking back, when have we really looked good?

Your points overall are well taken, but our team seems like a whole that's less than the sum of it's parts.
oh no
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I don't buy the bellyaching that the USMNT first choice players "don't play as a team". On Sunday, they looked very good technically, tactically, and physically. Tactically, they had very few problems combining, keeping possession, breaking lines, and getting the ball into the attacking 3rd for the entire match. They combined well and played well as a team. Our top 3-4 choice central defenders are solid (and I personally still think Miazga is one of our best and yet doesn't get called anymore). Our starting fullbacks and the MMA midfield that started both matches last Thursday and on Sunday are outstanding players and they all play well together as a team.

When you face a squad as solid as Canada that is parking the bus, you're going to need some lucky bounces and you need some guys up top to be killers. It's always going to be a challenge and it might not always go your way, especially on the road and vs that Canadian squad. When stats register 65% possession, 80% passing accuracy, 18 crosses and 7 "successful crosses" (to the opponents' 3 and 0 crosses) and yet you aren't getting enough shots and can't break through even once, you have to look at the guys at the 7, 9, 11, and 10 spots and ask if they are killers. I don't know if he's more of a 10 or 8 central MF, but I do think McKinnie is a killer. Need more than one though. Do we need different guys? GGG has tried about 7 different guys at #9. Would Sargent or Pefok or a healthy Dike have been better than Gyasi or does Gyasi need to wake the F up? Or should Pepi just start all three matches in a 3 game window? Would Hoppe or a healthy Reyna be a better winger than Brendan or Weah or Pulisic at times? Why didn't our guys immediately go forward and make them pay when they made mistakes playing out like they did to us on the bad goal kick?

The bad goal kick by Turner and subsequent not fighting for the second ball by central players (and very good aggressive forward movement by Canada off of that mistake) has to be cleaned up. The header by McKinnie probably scores 8 times out of 10 - amazing save by Canada GK. Really unlucky. CP10 takes to too many touches and tries to do too much on his own. He draws a lot of attention and they need to find a way for him to use that attention and combine to get others going to goal instead of himself... or as mentioned play him as a 10 or put him on the bench.

Adams injury is cause for concern - he and McKinnie are the best American soccer players right now and the way Dest and Antonee like to overlap and transition to attack, not having Adam's defense is a huge loss. Might need to change tactics a little bit to help the central defenders and Acosta out when we don't have Adams at 6.
jeffk
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fig96 said:

jeffk said:

Yeah, no, I don't agree with that. You don't accomplish what we have in qualifying and in previous tournaments without some modicum of shared tactics and direction. It hasn't looked good the past two matches, but we're not falling apart.
But looking back, when have we really looked good?

Your points overall are well taken, but our team seems like a whole that's less than the sum of it's parts.


There's been several of our qualifying matches where we have looked good (to me anyway). But that's such a tough thing to nail down. Do we have to look like Germany or Holland to look good? Do we have to score 4 goals to look good? Canada leads our region, but they haven't really looked good in many of their matches. Mexico too. It's so subjective. And our defense has looked consistently great. Midfield is outstanding in possession. We just can't find a breakthrough up front... where again, all our talent is super duper young.

I absolutely think we should be playing better overall than we have been, but we have a really green roster and a lot of the key guys have missed significant time recently due to injury or are just out of form. Is our scheme contributing to some of that? Maybe, probably, but I'm pretty sure it's not scheme that dictates that our outside backs can't hit a cross accurately or that Pulisic can't beat a defender in a 1v1.

I just want to get through qualifying so that guys can rest up a bit before we get an extended preparation period to polish prior to flying to Qatar where we'll play on nice pitches against teams that won't be allowed to hack our little guys to pieces. And then after the WC, Berhalter will most likely be off to do something else and we'll all get to speculate who we hire to help a roster full of world class talent (now in their prime playing years) take the next step.
wangus12
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Quote:

The bad goal kick by Turner and subsequent not fighting for the second ball by central players (and very good aggressive forward movement by Canada off of that mistake) has to be cleaned up. The header by McKinnie probably scores 8 times out of 10 - amazing save by Canada GK. Really unlucky. CP10 takes to too many touches and tries to do too much on his own. He draws a lot of attention and they need to find a way for him to use that attention and combine to get others going to goal instead of himself... or as mentioned play him as a 10 or put him on the bench.
I think this has been the stand out issue this window. He is taking the extra touch every time rather than please the quick pass or easier pass. That extra touch has slowed us down in attack, allows defenses to get set and crowd him off the ball. CP needs to make things simple again. This isn't 2017 where he was basically the only guy that was capable of making something happen. We have way more capable talent and he needs to trust these guys. I don't know if he was hoping of dominating this window to show off for Chelsea or what, but its really screwed up our attack which in general needs to speed of play. We do seem to get to the edge of the 18 and then slowly pass the ball around trying to find that one killer pass while the defense stays in their shape the entire time.


I will say that in regards to this team compared to years past, we seem to really miss guys with a very clinical edge. Like others have said, we used to be that bunker and counter team, but we usually had Donovan or Dempsey burying those few chances that came. Now with all the possession we have, we don't really have that clutch guy who is gonna bury the one chance he gets.
oh no
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Canada only had 35% possession, only registered 8 total shots, only connected 65% of their passes and didn't even attempt that many passes. Only had 3 crosses, 0 successful crosses, and attempted only 1 single corner kick in the entire match. They didn't look like a great squad. But they do have a couple of killers going forward to make opponents pay for their mistakes. That's their game plan and it's getting them 3 or 1 point in every single WCQ this cycle so far with or without Davies. Still, I would wager that US should be more ready than them to push for WC quarterfinals in Qatar when we play some teams form CONMEBOL, UEFA or CAF.
 
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