Aston94 said:
Dre_00 said:
wangus12 said:
Aston94 said:
tysker said:
Ya, and there's so much bitterness and history there that we'll never comprehend. I legitimately feel bad for the players, coaches, etc.
I feel worse for the Ukrainians that are living in subway stops right now, huddling over their kids trying to keep them safe.
Players and coaches need to put pressure on their government. Public protests from within will put an end to Putin's reign.
Problem is internal public protests at least currently is landing said protestors in the gulag. And its not the "oh sure, have a friend bail you out in the morning" kind of gulag that Russia deals with
Exactly this. It's naive to say public protests are enough to put an end to Putin. Barring a military coup (which seems unlikely) Putin know as long as he has the elites, he has the country. Tens or even hundreds of thousands protesting won't change that.
And to keep this more soccer related, I absolutely agree with banning Russia from the WC. I absolutely agree that FIFA is a horrible arbiter of morality and justice. And I absolutely agree that other countries should be subjected to a similar type of scrutiny.
I don't want to get into a big argument about this, but I think it is naive of you to think that public sentiment in Russia won't have an impact on the war with Ukraine. Russian athletes around the world opposing the war have real consequences at home.
The fact that Russia was already willing to discuss terms of a cease fire today shows how all the pressures on Putin together can help end the war. The oligarchs who control the teams have a lot of power...and Putin's ear.
I didn't say it won't have an impact. I said it wouldn't put an end to Putin's reign (which is what you said as a start). The only consequences that public sentiment and athletes have on Putin are indirect. Which is to say that if the elites are affected sufficiently by them then Putin could be. But there is absolutely no guarantee they will be even if millions of Russians protest. Many an autocrat has survived for decades in spite of declining public sentiment and protests specifically because they maintained control of the elites (and the military...which in most cases at a leadership level is synonymous or a smaller circle within the elites) and they, along with the elites/military, were willing to crush any semblance of opposition and do so with extreme violence if necessary. There are many examples of this today in other countries. Half my family comes from a country ruled by an autocrat (well, a theocrat...which is just a different flavor of autocrat).
And I don't buy that Putin was negotiating in good faith yesterday or with any willingness to compromise. There is absolutely 0 chance that his position has appreciably changed in 5 days. Not after literally decades of preparing his economy (or trying to prepare his economy) for Western sanctions. Not after literally years of planning his New Russia vision. Not after months of planning this specific phase of it.