To be fair, Campea has some really odd opinions and comes off as a pompous ***** a lot of the time.

For example, he has a hard stance that Leia should be recast and went on a rant calling everyone who thinks otherwise a moron.

Lol, I missed that one.

"If you look at Rogue, all the difficulty with Rogue, all the confusion of it and all the mess, and in the end when you get in there, it's actually very, very simple to solve," Gilroy said of the film. "Because you sort of go, 'This is a movie where, folks, just look. Everyone is going to die.' So it's a movie about sacrifice."

"It doesn't appeal to me," he said of making another Star Wars film. "But I don't think Rogue really is a Star Wars movie in many ways. To me, it's a Battle of Britain movie."

Gilroy on Rogue One

These quotes are mind blowing to me.

First, how bad is that first cut of Rogue One? Also, in a year of filming how come no one in the "writer's room" came up with the idea.

Second, Rogue One felt like the most Star Wars movie. But I think this quote illuminates the biggest issue with the Disney Star Wars Movies and the prequels. They think Star Wars is about something, rather than acknowledge the truth of Star Wars, it is a set of ideas, props, and style to tell whatever story you want.

As much hate as Kennedy is getting, she needs props for bringing in Gilroy and Ron Howard to fix the problems.

I think JJ Abrams and Kasdan deserve a lot of the blame with the ST. Abrams made a mystery box movie and did not have any answers. This is what doomed 7,8, and 9.

I wholeheartedly agree with almost everything you're saying, but am somewhat confused by this statement...

Quote:

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But I think this quote illuminates the biggest issue with the Disney Star Wars Movies and the prequels. They think Star Wars is about something, rather than acknowledge the truth of Star Wars, it is a set of ideas, props, and style to tell whatever story you want.

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Exactly. Ep 9 is literally a blank slate at this point that JJ can do whatever he wants with, literally.

That's why I half joked on the Star Wars discussion thread that I kind of hope he just goes Infinity Wars/Fanboy Nerdgasm on it and throws everything and the kitchen sink at it. All known canon characters and factions take a side for the fate of the galaxy. Why the F not at this point. They've literally made a 2/3 of a trilogy where the last third has no cliffhanger or continuation plot.

CJS4715 said:

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Lol, I missed that one.

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Skip to 24:39.

TCTTS said:

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I wholeheartedly agree with almost everything you're saying, but am somewhat confused by this statement...

Quote:

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But I think this quote illuminates the biggest issue with the Disney Star Wars Movies and the prequels. They think Star Wars is about something, rather than acknowledge the truth of Star Wars, it is a set of ideas, props, and style to tell whatever story you want.

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Yeah, I am not sure I can explain it well. I think Star Wars is a lot like Dungeons and Dragons. It is just a setting to tell stories. There is not really any real "meaning" in the setting.

The Original Trilogy is about Luke's Journey. That is it. There does not have to be anything more. But that doesn't mean that it can't be about more. The Prequels failed because Anakin's has to be a tragic hero. We really didn't get that in the Prequels.

I think this is what Gilroy is trying to express. That Rogue One isn't a Star Wars movie, because it isn't about a Hero's Journey. It is about Sacrifice (using his words).

The comparison to Battle of Britain is pretty interesting.

But Rogue One felt like the most Star Wars movie to me. I can't help shaking this feeling that the issue is that Star Wars isn't anything, but it is just a setting. Like a Western, WW2 movie, Fantasy, etc.

Ulrich said:

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Dekker_Lentz said:

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Second, Rogue One felt like the most Star Wars movie. But I think this quote illuminates the biggest issue with the Disney Star Wars Movies and the prequels. They think Star Wars is about something, rather than acknowledge the truth of Star Wars, it is a set of ideas, props, and style to tell whatever story you want.
...
I think JJ Abrams and Kasdan deserve a lot of the blame with the ST. Abrams made a mystery box movie and did not have any answers. This is what doomed 7,8, and 9.

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Your post is interesting, but I have a lot of questions about these two paragraphs.

In the first, I'm flat out not sure what you mean. Are you saying that Star Wars is hyperspace and lightsabers, so as long as you've got that you can make anything?

In the second, just a minor quibble... usually I'm more or less on board that a movie needs to get somewhere and Abrams isn't always good about that, but in this case it was the first of a trilogy. We should get some sort of ending, but its job is to set the stage. Set up the characters, conflict, and theme. I say Abrams did a great job of that.

BUT, this does lead me into one of my favorite topics, which is that TLJ made TFA worse. Rather than building on TFA, TLJ cut most of the plotlines and took the life out of several key characters. So yeah, now TFA looks pointless, but that's not on Abrams.

It's going to be really interesting to see how Abrams handles IX.

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Yeah pretty much, Star Wars is Hyperspace and Lightsabers, space battles, space planets, epic sets, etc. Pretty much going to steal this from some one else, but I was reading an article that talked about how technology never changes in Star Wars. from KOTOR to the TLJ nothing has changed technology wise, I think this is true because it is just a setting. Like Horses and Sixshooters in a Western.

Giving that Abrams set the stage, I think we get a cause and effect issue. Let's take Rey. J.J. Abrams in his own movie asks, "Who is the girl?"

As far as I can tell Johnson asked Kennedy and Abrams and everyone, "Who is the girl?"

And the response was a shrug. "We don't know."

I still dumbfounded this is the case. I am not saying Rey should be anyone, per se, but they wanted Rey to be a nobody, why tease fans about it in TFA? What was the point?

As a kid I remember seeing Starship Troopers in the theaters after I had read the book. (I think I was 13-14) and wondering, "What the hell?" It was only a decade later when I read an article that the movie Starship Troopers was a response to the Book. A criticism of the book. This made the movie more interesting.

I sometimes feel that is what TLJ was, a criticism of Star Wars.

I am also curious on how 9 is going to unfold. I disliked 8, but now I am terrified 9 will be worse because it will be nothing but fan service and Rey will be Obi-Wan and Qi-ra's grand daughter.

Dekker_Lentz said:

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TCTTS said:

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I wholeheartedly agree with almost everything you're saying, but am somewhat confused by this statement...

Quote:

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But I think this quote illuminates the biggest issue with the Disney Star Wars Movies and the prequels. They think Star Wars is about something, rather than acknowledge the truth of Star Wars, it is a set of ideas, props, and style to tell whatever story you want.

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Yeah, I am not sure I can explain it well. I think Star Wars is a lot like Dungeons and Dragons. It is just a setting to tell stories. There is not really any real "meaning" in the setting.

The Original Trilogy is about Luke's Journey. That is it. There does not have to be anything more. But that doesn't mean that it can't be about more. The Prequels failed because Anakin's has to be a tragic hero. We really didn't get that in the Prequels.

I think this is what Gilroy is trying to express. That Rogue One isn't a Star Wars movie, because it isn't about a Hero's Journey. It is about Sacrifice (using his words).

The comparison to Battle of Britain is pretty interesting.

But Rogue One felt like the most Star Wars movie to me. I can't help shaking this feeling that the issue is that Star Wars isn't anything, but it is just a setting. Like a Western, WW2 movie, Fantasy, etc.

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Very nice way of putting it. Fantastic movie.

Quote:

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But Rogue One felt like the most Star Wars movie to me. I can't help shaking this feeling that the issue is that Star Wars isn't anything, but it is just a setting. Like a Western, WW2 movie, Fantasy, etc.

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You expressed your point well here.

Quote:

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I am also curious on how 9 is going to unfold. I disliked 8, but now I am terrified 9 will be worse because it will be nothing but fan service and Rey will be Obi-Wan and Qi-ra's grand daughter.

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This is exactly what a coworker and I were talking about today.

I am 100% sure Abrams meant for Rey to be someone. Not necessarily a particular person's child, but she has a connection to Han, Leia, Kylo, and Maz (who all appear to know who she is) and Luke's lightsaber.

Let's add up the twists in TLJ.
Luke tosses the lightsaber
Kylo kills Snoke (this was brilliant, imo)
Rose cockblocks Finn's big sacrifice
Leia almost dies twice when everyone knows she's dead irl
Rey isn't anyone in particular
Luke shows up to save the day
Luke didn't actually show up
Luke randomly dies (this may have been poorly executed rather than nonsensical)
Hyped villain Phasma dies without doing anything
The Poe/Finn last hope gamble-everything scheme fails
The Holdo last hope gamble-everything scheme fails

I think Johnson was willing to nullify any plotline if he thought he could surprise people by doing so. That leaves us without a credible threat to the First Order and with a protagonist who seems nice but never earned her power.

Is there a way forward without openly throwing out 8 to pick up the threads from 7 or treating it like a one-off film? Kylo is the best developed character, could you salvage a coherent three film story by making him the protagonist in 9?

Ulrich said:

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I am 100% sure Abrams meant for Rey to be someone. Not necessarily a particular person's child, but she has a connection to Han, Leia, Kylo, and Maz (who all appear to know who she is) and Luke's lightsaber.

Let's add up the twists in TLJ.
Luke tosses the lightsaber
Kylo kills Snoke (this was brilliant, imo)
Rose cockblocks Finn's big sacrifice
Leia almost dies twice when everyone knows she's dead irl
Rey isn't anyone in particular
Luke shows up to save the day
Luke didn't actually show up
Luke randomly dies (this may have been poorly executed rather than nonsensical)
Hyped villain Phasma dies without doing anything
The Poe/Finn last hope gamble-everything scheme fails
The Holdo last hope gamble-everything scheme fails

I think Johnson was willing to nullify any plotline if he thought he could surprise people by doing so. That leaves us without a credible threat to the First Order and with a protagonist who seems nice but never earned her power.

Is there a way forward without openly throwing out 8 to pick up the threads from 7 or treating it like a one-off film? Kylo is the best developed character, could you salvage a coherent three film story by making him the protagonist in 9?

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How did the Holdo last hope gamble thing a fail?

You mean the light speed through Snoke's ship right? Seemed to work pretty well at stopping them from firing on the escaping ships. But I guess maybe you mean they got enough weapons off that they still had them trapped on the planet?

I still would call it a success and it was pretty badass.

Urban Ag said:

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translation: sh**storm

Ep 9 is the mulligan

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Ep 9 might come out, and we might all say, damn - should have just stopped at 8.

The hyperspace maneuver is what she did after the FO saw through her escape plan and started picking off the shuttles, slaughtering most of the Resistance.

That scene looked great though.

Ulrich said:

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The hyperspace maneuver is what she did after the FO saw through her escape plan and started picking off the shuttles, slaughtering most of the Resistance.

That scene looked great though.

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ok well they did not exactly see through it - the keymaster guy played by Benicio betrayed them.

but yeah. also not sure it was her plan they were headed there before she took over I believe when Leia was incapacitated she continued the plan.

Anyway regardless I would call her "last" gambit a success.

The secret escape plan that was supposed to save everyone failed and got almost everyone killed and destroyed all their ships. That is certainly a twist. I wasn't referring to subsequent events in the film.

I can kind of see how Star Wars is more a "setting" than a story.

ANH was really just all of Lucas' influences told through the prism of space fantasy. (Samurai movies, Westerns, Flash Gordon, etc.)

But, I think the mythology that he created became so culturally significant that it eventually become its own thing, though it was unplanned and unintended.

Though, it's sort of hard to explain what exactly Star Wars IS at this point. It's a different thing to everyone. It really depends on what your introduction to Star Wars was, what aspects of it grabbed you, what era you grew up in, etc.

Ultimately, this is what makes it so difficult to please all Star Wars fans. Not everyone wants the same thing.

Ulrich said:

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The secret escape plan that was supposed to save everyone failed and got almost everyone killed and destroyed all their ships. That is certainly a twist. I wasn't referring to subsequent events in the film.

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Lots of battle plans are stupid and fail miserably. In fact, the only time the rebels haven't gotten thier asses kicked or won but lost 95% of thier forces was when Luke was involved. So is it really a surprise that two bad plans (Poe's reckless assault and Holdos botched escape) left them decimated?

The last three movies have really taken pains to show that the rebellion isn't just Leia and some x wings, the whole galaxy is ready to fight.

TLJ specifically made the point that there is no one else. Remember when they sent the signal for aide and no one came?

Ulrich said:

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TLJ specifically made the point that there is no one else. Remember when they sent the signal for aide and no one came?

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I realize that JJ is not bound by the laws of spacetime (maybe Rian is?) but how exactly was anyone going to get there in time? And the point isn't that there are a bunch of armies out there, it's that droids, and rouges, and slave broom boys are all potential rebels.

amercer said:

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Ulrich said:

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TLJ specifically made the point that there is no one else. Remember when they sent the signal for aide and no one came?

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I realize that JJ is not bound by the laws of spacetime (maybe Rian is?) but how exactly was anyone going to get there in time? And the point isn't that there are a bunch of armies out there, it's that droids, and rouges, and slave broom boys are all potential rebels.

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I am looking at it from that perspective as well. Does the call for aide in Star Wars really get answered that instantaneously? If so, what are examples in the movies? I've always assumed the quick travel in hyperspace is for screen time.

I'm pretty sure they made it a point to say that the signal got through and no one even answered.

You are probably right.

Ulrich said:

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I'm pretty sure they made it a point to say that the signal got through and no one even answered.

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So I'm thinking Episode 9 should have a scene where R2 comes by, sticks out his thingamabob, twists it a little, and the what was once broken transmitter is back up and running and now the whole galaxy responds in support of the Resistance.

Of course with JJ directing, there has to be some lens flare behind R2 while he does this.

Ulrich said:

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I am 100% sure Abrams meant for Rey to be someone. Not necessarily a particular person's child, but she has a connection to Han, Leia, Kylo, and Maz (who all appear to know who she is) and Luke's lightsaber.

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And that could still be the case. I think Kylo straight up lied to Rey about her lineage.