Musgrove looked elite as a bullpen piece.
Astros offseason thread
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Last: 6 yr ago by spadilly
I think y'all are overthinking this. I don't see us using a 6 man rotation or tandem starts.
Peacock slides to the pen to take the spot of Musgrove. I think McHugh goes to the pen to be a long relief option.
I honestly think McHugh gets traded. I'd like to maybe see him dealt in a package to the Marlins for JT Realmuto. Him and McCain could split time and he could take over full time after 2018 when McCain moves on or retires. He'd be the future at the catcher position.
Peacock slides to the pen to take the spot of Musgrove. I think McHugh goes to the pen to be a long relief option.
I honestly think McHugh gets traded. I'd like to maybe see him dealt in a package to the Marlins for JT Realmuto. Him and McCain could split time and he could take over full time after 2018 when McCain moves on or retires. He'd be the future at the catcher position.
I agree with most of that, except for the statement that none had a future on the Astros. I think that's true of Moran, but Musgrove had a good chance to be in the rotation again after this next year or and two and Feliz had a good shot to be in the pen again. They were expendable because they weren't needed now.
the Cole deal also gives the Astros leverage in the negotiations with Keuchel after the season.
or perhaps better stated...it means the Astros can walk away if the contract demands become excessive
or perhaps better stated...it means the Astros can walk away if the contract demands become excessive
it's also nice that the 'stros got the 2 extra picks from the Cardinals...to help backfill the minor league talent after trading away quite a few guys for Verlander and Cole
They also went all-in on signing international FAs in the last year of that system. Just paid the money and signed them. The minor-league system should remain stocked.W said:
it's also nice that the 'stros got the 2 extra picks from the Cardinals...to help backfill the minor league talent after trading away quite a few guys for Verlander and Cole
Don't forget that we've also added to our system by trading guys like Feldman and Fields. One of the most promising prospects we have came over in the Fields trade with the Dodgers. The pitcher we got from the Jays showed promise, too, until he unexpectedly retired from baseball.
All in all, this front office has been tremendous at both adding talent to the system and using it wisely to help the big league club. There will always be the Gomez blunder, but aside from that, we've had some great trades.
All in all, this front office has been tremendous at both adding talent to the system and using it wisely to help the big league club. There will always be the Gomez blunder, but aside from that, we've had some great trades.
I'm not so sure you want lance making 62 appearances for 80+ IP. That adds a completely different kind of stress on his arm. Let him keep his role and just stay cautious. Unless something goes terribly wrong then it's about being in a position to win in Oct, not racking up 200 IP.
I really like the idea of tandem starts with 4 pitchers. Limit them to 2 trips through the opposing lineup and limit the need for them to go 7+ innings. Reduce stress on your bullpen, get them to the 8th/9th.
Verlander
Keuchel
Cole
LMJ/Peacock
Morton/McHugh
Devo
Smith
Rondon
Giles
Harris
Paulino
That's 13. Add Sipp if you carry 14, which I think you do. You can still keep the same pitchers, though you lose some of their efficacy if you reduce them to an inning per outing in the case of Peacock or McHugh. If you use them 2-3 innings per outing, you are already essentially using them as tandem starters, just not on a set schedule.
C:
Gattis
McCann
IF:
Yuli
Altuve
Correa
Bregman
Util:
Marwin
OF:
Springer
Reddick
Fisher
Marisnick
That's 25
Verlander
Keuchel
Cole
LMJ/Peacock
Morton/McHugh
Devo
Smith
Rondon
Giles
Harris
Paulino
That's 13. Add Sipp if you carry 14, which I think you do. You can still keep the same pitchers, though you lose some of their efficacy if you reduce them to an inning per outing in the case of Peacock or McHugh. If you use them 2-3 innings per outing, you are already essentially using them as tandem starters, just not on a set schedule.
C:
Gattis
McCann
IF:
Yuli
Altuve
Correa
Bregman
Util:
Marwin
OF:
Springer
Reddick
Fisher
Marisnick
That's 25
Not sure I'd say it gives Astros leverage, but it's nice to have Cole for 2019 because I don't expect to have Keuchel
I remember the Astros using tandem pitchers in the minors several years ago. All for it- especially with McCullers- if it doesn't overwork the other relievers. Lance just cannot get efficient outs. It seems like he's routinely hitting 80 pitches by the 4th inning.
MLBN running its 2017 WS special at 4 o'clock. Sure beats watching the nfl & nba.
One of things that is most exciting about this team is the way the front office and coaching staff operates. I have absolute confidence that Cole will be put in the best possible position to excel given the access to the analytics and his interaction with Brett Strom who has been an absolute revelation since he has been with the Astros
The tandem rotation talk is just fantasy. Hinch isn't going to go to tandem starts. Nobody does that, and for a reason. It isn't practical to have roughly 7 starting pitchers.
The reason no one does it is no one has extra starters laying around. Most teams #4/5 starters are not exactly plus guys. And there is a lot of data that suggests letting a pitcher see a lineup a 3rd time is a bad thing. So get two starters to each go between 4 and 5 innings apiece. If you have extra plus starters it's possible. And we have extra plus starters.
If nobody does that, it stands to reason the Astros might be the first. It could be a new way of looking at the efficient use of your staff.
Just because nobody does it doesn't mean it's wrong. I bet someone somewhere said the same thing about frequent defensive shifts.
Just because nobody does it doesn't mean it's wrong. I bet someone somewhere said the same thing about frequent defensive shifts.
We just won game 2. It was awesome. It is not possible for me to see this too much. I've watched hours of YouTube videos on this team. This world champion team.
CSWendt said:
The tandem rotation talk is just fantasy. Hinch isn't going to go to tandem starts. Nobody does that, and for a reason. It isn't practical to have roughly 7 starting pitchers.
This.
It works in the playoffs when you get travel days and time off between series but it doesn't feasible to implement over an entire season.
I think even Hinch said himself during the WS that he likes it during the playoffs but doesn't see it catching on during the regular season.
And IIRC the farm system no longer does it.
Quote:
Just because nobody does it doesn't mean it's wrong. I bet someone somewhere said the same thing about frequent defensive shifts.
In "Ahead of the Curve" by Brian Kenney he argues that traditional roles by pitchers will inevitably diminish. It will be common for a starter to go 3 or 4 or 5 innings at most, and relievers will no longer have their set roles as they do now. If the game is on the line in the 6th inning, the guy who is now your closer would come in. He says the thing that is keeping it from happening now are the stats for individual wins and saves which he maintains are useless.
The Astros figured out how to navigate through the World Series without having someone who they could count on in the traditional closer's role, and it worked out OK.
That is a class act by Musgrove. Straight out, grade AA class.
Damn, Musgrove has some nice handwriting.
MosesHallRAB04 said:
Damn, Musgrove has some nice handwriting.
Hinch taught him well
It's a very nice letter, but he should stop yelling.
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/264701164/astros-dodgers-projected-to-be-best-in-2018
Quote:
There's a pretty strong argument that 2017's champions have made themselves a whole lot stronger this winte
Awesome letter by Musgrove, his emergence in the pen in 2017 definitely played a part in bringing home the WS. With that said, his ceiling is most likely 4th starter or good set-up guy so you definitely trade him for a guy like Cole.
I have lots of family in Minnesota. I was chatting back and forth during the Vikings game. Their emotional roller coaster during that game reminded me very much of the Astros playoff run.
Difference is we had to endure 18 games of that.
Difference is we had to endure 18 games of that.
Not only that, but we won the ****in World Series AND kept our top prospects AND ended up with one of those original targets. Remember all the teeth gnashing at the trade deadline? Makes me laughAg_07 said:
Think back to last off season and even the deadline. We were after Gray, Cole, and to an extent Archer. At that point we thought we would have to part with a top prospects like Martes, Tucker, or Fisher
Well we went and landed Verlander without giving up either of them. Now we've landed one of our original targets in Cole without giving up either of them.
Lunhow has absolutely crushed this.
Completely agree. LMJ is still incredibly young and has flashed absolute ace levels of stuff. It would be a crime to put him in the bullpen right now. McHugh or Morton make more sense than putting your young stud in the BP.Farmer1906 said:
I'm not so sure you want lance making 62 appearances for 80+ IP. That adds a completely different kind of stress on his arm. Let him keep his role and just stay cautious. Unless something goes terribly wrong then it's about being in a position to win in Oct, not racking up 200 IP.
Ag_07 said:CSWendt said:
The tandem rotation talk is just fantasy. Hinch isn't going to go to tandem starts. Nobody does that, and for a reason. It isn't practical to have roughly 7 starting pitchers.
This.
It works in the playoffs when you get travel days and time off between series but it doesn't feasible to implement over an entire season.
I think even Hinch said himself during the WS that he likes it during the playoffs but doesn't see it catching on during the regular season.
And IIRC the farm system no longer does it.
Whether by design or necessity, Hinch basically used a tandem system for the majority of LMJ's starts last year. In 2017, at an all-star level, he never pitched in the 8th inning, only saw the 7th inning three times and failed to start the 5th inning a whopping seven times. Generally in those games, as evidenced by his all-star selection, it was his pitch count more often than his effectiveness that instigated the change.
No one is advocating a tandem staff across the board, but I could definitely see it with LMJ, given his lack of efficiency and the additional arm quality in the pen. It's basically already happening but without a defined reliever.
LMJ absolutely does not want to be a reliever. He mentioned it on one of the radio shows where they asked him about it. If we were to move him to the pen while he wants to be a starter then you could kiss any future contract with him goodbye.
I suspect we will run out 6 starters and us the ten day DL to rest guys.
100% this.Safe at Home said:Quote:
Just because nobody does it doesn't mean it's wrong. I bet someone somewhere said the same thing about frequent defensive shifts.
In "Ahead of the Curve" by Brian Kenney he argues that traditional roles by pitchers will inevitably diminish. It will be common for a starter to go 3 or 4 or 5 innings at most, and relievers will no longer have their set roles as they do now. If the game is on the line in the 6th inning, the guy who is now your closer would come in. He says the thing that is keeping it from happening now are the stats for individual wins and saves which he maintains are useless.
The Astros figured out how to navigate through the World Series without having someone who they could count on in the traditional closer's role, and it worked out OK.
The Astros just won a World Series using pitchers in maybe some of the most unorthodox ways in the playoffs. A true "closer" should be brought in to pitch when the other teams run expectancy gets over a certain threshold (could be in the 7th inning with the bases loaded and no outs).
LMJ needs to show he can stay healthy(ier) as well.
TO THE DROP ZONE!!!
Outside of essentially tandem starts, isn't some of the unorthodox ways the pitchers were used because of the bullpen becoming essentially untrustable? I think I saw in an article where we were the 17th ranked bullpen last year (could be off). If we had an elite bullpen, do you think Hinch would have done some of the same moves? I feel some of what we did in the playoffs became more out of necessity than a true analytical approach to a traditional pitching role.irish pete ag06 said:100% this.Safe at Home said:Quote:
Just because nobody does it doesn't mean it's wrong. I bet someone somewhere said the same thing about frequent defensive shifts.
In "Ahead of the Curve" by Brian Kenney he argues that traditional roles by pitchers will inevitably diminish. It will be common for a starter to go 3 or 4 or 5 innings at most, and relievers will no longer have their set roles as they do now. If the game is on the line in the 6th inning, the guy who is now your closer would come in. He says the thing that is keeping it from happening now are the stats for individual wins and saves which he maintains are useless.
The Astros figured out how to navigate through the World Series without having someone who they could count on in the traditional closer's role, and it worked out OK.
The Astros just won a World Series using pitchers in maybe some of the most unorthodox ways in the playoffs. A true "closer" should be brought in to pitch when the other teams run expectancy gets over a certain threshold (could be in the 7th inning with the bases loaded and no outs).
I do think traditional roles will diminish, but really only in the postseason or a tight divisional race at the end of a season. I think roles will stay pretty traditional in the regular season for a long time to come.
What I can see happening in the postseason this year as far as the Astros go is using the analytics from last year's postseason run to use some more unorthodox methods.
aggiewhoop1
I'm going to do something on the level of stealing the mascot come fall
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409Texag
I'm going to do something on the level of stealing the mascot come fall
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Nonregdrummer09
Confirm from Targac: he called for the 0-2 bunt for Chestnut
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