. . . said:

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https://www.scribd.com/document/446459014/Bolsinger-Complaint

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lda6339 said:

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Flexbone said:

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lda6339 said:

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Flexbone said:

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lda6339 said:

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First Lawsuit has been filed. Since MLB has an official partnership with DraftKings I wonder if this could actually turn into something, guess we'll wait and see. Any lawyers have an preliminary opinion/comment?

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I'm an attorney, and my comment is that you might be the biggest moron on this board. The Cardinals had employees GO TO JAIL and yet here you are, running your mouth about something that a TON of teams were doing. Just how big of a tool are you?

A CARDINALS fan. What are you, 95 years old?

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Neat deflection!

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I've never seen anything stranger than this weird guy hanging out on every Astros thread, bitter because "his Cardinals" aren't good at baseball.

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Flexbone, a guy who has been hanging out on every thread about the biggest story in baseball:

"I've never seen anything stranger than a guy who has been hanging out on every thread about the biggest story in baseball"

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lda6339 said:

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Flexbone said:

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lda6339 said:

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Flexbone said:

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lda6339 said:

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Flexbone said:

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lda6339 said:

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First Lawsuit has been filed. Since MLB has an official partnership with DraftKings I wonder if this could actually turn into something, guess we'll wait and see. Any lawyers have an preliminary opinion/comment?

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I'm an attorney, and my comment is that you might be the biggest moron on this board. The Cardinals had employees GO TO JAIL and yet here you are, running your mouth about something that a TON of teams were doing. Just how big of a tool are you?

A CARDINALS fan. What are you, 95 years old?

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Neat deflection!

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I've never seen anything stranger than this weird guy hanging out on every Astros thread, bitter because "his Cardinals" aren't good at baseball.

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Flexbone, a guy who has been hanging out on every thread about the biggest story in baseball:

"I've never seen anything stranger than a guy who has been hanging out on every thread about the biggest story in baseball"

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That would make sense..if you weren't actively cheering for the Nationals on the World Series thread on here before this story ever came out. You're a weirdly obsessed, strange individual. I'm sorry the Cardinals aren't relevant. Maybe you shouldn't attach your self-worth to a baseball team?

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Just give up man. You keep coming back here to hurl insults at a guy on a message board who you don't even know. You can try and call me names all you want but like all baseball fans, I'm gonna follow the biggest story in baseball and nothing about that is weird or obsessive.

With that being said, I'm sorry you're upset that I trolled you a few months ago. I really hope you can make peace with it and stop crying about it soon. If I'd have known it was going to affect you this long I would have refrained.

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DannyDuberstein said:

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It does make no sense that they would do it through 2018 and not 2019.

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Deluxe said:

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It seems plausible to me that they would stop when the hitters were no longer confident enough that the signs being relayed to them were accurate. I'm guessing by the start of the 2018 season, the illegal sign stealing that was going on around baseball was common knowledge in inside circles. So sign sequences became more complex and switched up more often. This led to a large decline in the degree of certainty that any given pitch relayed to the hitter was correct. And guessing after a few ABs of being told one pitch was coming, only have it be another pitch, the Astros hitters just said F it.

That doesn't mean the Astros didn't find another shady practice to engage in that may/may not have been against the rules. But it seems very plausible to me that they stopped stealing signs illegally early in 2018.

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And the evidence shows that it really didn't help.

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Proposition Joe said:

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Flexbone said:

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Deluxe said:

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It seems plausible to me that they would stop when the hitters were no longer confident enough that the signs being relayed to them were accurate. I'm guessing by the start of the 2018 season, the illegal sign stealing that was going on around baseball was common knowledge in inside circles. So sign sequences became more complex and switched up more often. This led to a large decline in the degree of certainty that any given pitch relayed to the hitter was correct. And guessing after a few ABs of being told one pitch was coming, only have it be another pitch, the Astros hitters just said F it.

That doesn't mean the Astros didn't find another shady practice to engage in that may/may not have been against the rules. But it seems very plausible to me that they stopped stealing signs illegally early in 2018.

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No it doesn't. Nor does it mean they did.

I'm still not sure why everyone seems to be ignoring the reality that a ton of teams were doing this. And the evidence shows that it really didn't help.

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Except of course that there's only currently boatloads of verified evidence on the Astros doing it.

To on one hand say "there's no proof the Astros WERE doing anything wrong in 2018 or 2019 so there's no reason to believe they did" and on the other hand say "there's no proof other teams in baseball WEREN'T doing anything wrong in 2018 or 2019 so there's no reason to believe they weren't" are two completely incongruent statements that only Astros fans are trying to pass off as logical.

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DannyDuberstein said:

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And the evidence shows that it really didn't help.

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What evidence? They were doing it at home and on the road. So splits are useless.

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Proposition Joe said:

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Flexbone said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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Flexbone said:

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Deluxe said:

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It seems plausible to me that they would stop when the hitters were no longer confident enough that the signs being relayed to them were accurate. I'm guessing by the start of the 2018 season, the illegal sign stealing that was going on around baseball was common knowledge in inside circles. So sign sequences became more complex and switched up more often. This led to a large decline in the degree of certainty that any given pitch relayed to the hitter was correct. And guessing after a few ABs of being told one pitch was coming, only have it be another pitch, the Astros hitters just said F it.

That doesn't mean the Astros didn't find another shady practice to engage in that may/may not have been against the rules. But it seems very plausible to me that they stopped stealing signs illegally early in 2018.

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No it doesn't. Nor does it mean they did.

I'm still not sure why everyone seems to be ignoring the reality that a ton of teams were doing this. And the evidence shows that it really didn't help.

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Except of course that there's only currently boatloads of verified evidence on the Astros doing it.

To on one hand say "there's no proof the Astros WERE doing anything wrong in 2018 or 2019 so there's no reason to believe they did" and on the other hand say "there's no proof other teams in baseball WEREN'T doing anything wrong in 2018 or 2019 so there's no reason to believe they weren't" are two completely incongruent statements that only Astros fans are trying to pass off as logical.

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No one argued that, Perry Mason. The problem with your "point" is that the Astros (and currently the Red Sox) are the only teams they've investigated re: the matter, so of course they have more evidence of them doing it vs. other teams they haven't investigated. What should be instructive to you is completely unaffiliated players and former players saying the equivalent of what Joe Musgrove just said.

I think you might need to revisit your logical reasoning text and start over.

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That's the equivalent of the Astros getting a DUI, people saying "lots of people drive drunk", and then assuming any one pulled over would be getting a DUI also and that the cops are just purposely not pulling over likely drunk drivers because "conspiracy".

Just because Houston cheated doesn't mean other teams did. Is it likely? Yes... Just as likely as Houston continuing to cheating 2018 and 2019 after cheating their way to a World Series in 2017. You can't assume things with the absence of facts when it fits your point, but then require facts for those things that don't fit your view.

As for the completely unaffiliated players -- there have been well over a thousand Major League Baseball players from 2017-2019. Less than 1% have made any kind of claim of cheating against other teams, and so far as I've seen zero have actually produced any proof. So the value of that is statistically insignificant.

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Tex100 said:

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DannyDuberstein said:

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And the evidence shows that it really didn't help.

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What evidence? They were doing it at home and on the road. So splits are useless.

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How were they doing it on the road?

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Quote:

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According to the WSJ, the Excel-based application designed to decode opposing catchers' signs was used throughout the 2017 season and for part of 2018 by Astros baseball operations employees and video room staffers both at home and on the road.

Staffers would log the catcher's signs and subsequent pitches into a spreadsheet and "Codebreaker" would determine how the signs related to different pitches. The information would then be communicated to the hitter by a baserunner via an intermediary

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Proposition Joe said:

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No im weighing the actual evidence. Not what i assume or hope to be true about other teams.

Now, if we want to disregard evidence and go based on likelihoods then sure - other teams were doing it... and the astros continued to do it in 2018 and 2019.

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Proposition Joe said:

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Deluxe said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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No im weighing the actual evidence. Not what i assume or hope to be true about other teams.

Now, if we want to disregard evidence and go based on likelihoods then sure - other teams were doing it... and the astros continued to do it in 2018 and 2019.

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I can't believe I'm dragging myself into this but equating the likelihood of other teams cheating vs the ~18/19 Astros cheating leaves out one very important piece of evidence:

Rob Manfred put his career on the line by asserting (based on a two month investigation) the ~18/19 Astros didn't cheat. He has not investigated nor has he made any such claim about another team pending the Red Sox investigation.

That doesn't mean the ~18/19 Astros for sure did not cheat. Nor does it mean other teams for sure did cheat. But it does mean you can't equate the likelihood of the two events.

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Career on the line? The guy is suggesting reality-TV playoff "choose your date" broadcasts... How hard he did or didn't investigate the 18/19 Houston Astros isn't going to matter squat to his career.

Again, people want to have it both ways... Is Manfred covering up a scandal that would rock all of baseball by not looking into other teams, but he just went all out in investigating the 2018 and 2019 Astros? As others have said, as commissioner he wants all of this to go away as quickly and quietly as possible... So either we trust the evidence we have, or we make assumptions based on what we think is likely -- you can't cherry pick what suits your fandom.

I'd say the likelihood of a PROVEN cheater in 2017 that had success and had yet to be caught continuing to cheat in 2018 and 2019 pretty damn likely. I consider there being another team out there (aside from HOU/BOS) with an intricate cheating system post-2017-memo that hasn't been outed by the thousands of twitter blowhards out there or by the next Athletic writer or guy-in-his-mom's-basement-that-is-on-the-spectrum poring over thousands of games and statistics still *likely* but not near as likely as someone continuing to do what they've already been proven to do.

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Deluxe said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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Deluxe said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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No im weighing the actual evidence. Not what i assume or hope to be true about other teams.

Now, if we want to disregard evidence and go based on likelihoods then sure - other teams were doing it... and the astros continued to do it in 2018 and 2019.

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I can't believe I'm dragging myself into this but equating the likelihood of other teams cheating vs the ~18/19 Astros cheating leaves out one very important piece of evidence:

Rob Manfred put his career on the line by asserting (based on a two month investigation) the ~18/19 Astros didn't cheat. He has not investigated nor has he made any such claim about another team pending the Red Sox investigation.

That doesn't mean the ~18/19 Astros for sure did not cheat. Nor does it mean other teams for sure did cheat. But it does mean you can't equate the likelihood of the two events.

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Career on the line? The guy is suggesting reality-TV playoff "choose your date" broadcasts... How hard he did or didn't investigate the 18/19 Houston Astros isn't going to matter squat to his career.

Again, people want to have it both ways... Is Manfred covering up a scandal that would rock all of baseball by not looking into other teams, but he just went all out in investigating the 2018 and 2019 Astros? As others have said, as commissioner he wants all of this to go away as quickly and quietly as possible... So either we trust the evidence we have, or we make assumptions based on what we think is likely -- you can't cherry pick what suits your fandom.

I'd say the likelihood of a PROVEN cheater in 2017 that had success and had yet to be caught continuing to cheat in 2018 and 2019 pretty damn likely. I consider there being another team out there (aside from HOU/BOS) with an intricate cheating system post-2017-memo that hasn't been outed by the thousands of twitter blowhards out there or by the next Athletic writer or guy-in-his-mom's-basement-that-is-on-the-spectrum poring over thousands of games and statistics still *likely* but not near as likely as someone continuing to do what they've already been proven to do.

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Most of your points are irrelevant to my point. I think it would be a disaster for Rob Manfred if he issued a report saying the ~18/19 Astros didn't cheat and it later comes out that they did. But I suppose that's where we disagree.

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DannyDuberstein said:

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Tex100 said:

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DannyDuberstein said:

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And the evidence shows that it really didn't help.

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What evidence? They were doing it at home and on the road. So splits are useless.

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How were they doing it on the road?

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I'm just citing the WSJ/ESPN article from last week with background on how it was developed and said they used it both places. So I'd guess they were doing it similar to the way they were doing it at home, although I'd guess the monitor they were using probably wasn't as robust as at home. It's not exactly complicated these days to both video and watch video.


https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28655757/report-astros-front-office-laid-groundwork-codebreaker-sign-stealing-program

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According to the WSJ, the Excel-based application designed to decode opposing catchers' signs was used throughout the 2017 season and for part of 2018 by Astros baseball operations employees and video room staffers both at home and on the road.

Staffers would log the catcher's signs and subsequent pitches into a spreadsheet and "Codebreaker" would determine how the signs related to different pitches. The information would then be communicated to the hitter by a baserunner via an intermediary

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Quote:

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by Astros baseball operations employees and video room staffers both at home and on the road.

Staffers would log the catcher's signs and subsequent pitches into a spreadsheet and "Codebreaker" would determine how the signs related to different pitches. The information would then be communicated to the hitter by a baserunner via an intermediary

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AustinAg2K said:

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I think the WSJ article is misleading. What they describe doesn't sound like live decoding of the signals, but rather decoding after the fact and then using the information the next time they play. That's different than the trash can thing, which they were watching video real time.

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Proposition Joe said:

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No im weighing the actual evidence. Not what i assume or hope to be true about other teams.

Now, if we want to disregard evidence and go based on likelihoods then sure - other teams were doing it... and the astros continued to do it in 2018 and 2019.

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Flexbone said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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No im weighing the actual evidence. Not what i assume or hope to be true about other teams.

Now, if we want to disregard evidence and go based on likelihoods then sure - other teams were doing it... and the astros continued to do it in 2018 and 2019.

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Do you understand that player's statements about what they know is considered "evidence"?

You're not "weighing" evidence. You're citing the only evidence you believe to be evidence as a result of only 1 investigation thats been conducted. You're also ignoring the fact that it's obvious that baseball isn't likely very interested in opening up more investigations into other teams that were also doing it because a "scandal" like that would be a terrible look just a decade removed from the Mitchell Report.

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Flexbone said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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No im weighing the actual evidence. Not what i assume or hope to be true about other teams.

Now, if we want to disregard evidence and go based on likelihoods then sure - other teams were doing it... and the astros continued to do it in 2018 and 2019.

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We get it. You like a team that doesn't win and want to discredit the Astros. Do you celebrate the Rangers' roofed up division champions from the 90's?

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Have you ever written a post defending your team without deflecting to another team? Have you noticed you have very few stars in this thread? I'd wager its because stars are rewarded to those who actually contribute to the discussion.

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