Astros = CHEATERS

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LDA9336
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Silent For Too Long said:

lda6339 said:

Astros fans desperately want to paint this a TEX v HOU or NYY v HOU thing, in reality its MLB v HOU. Need to wait and see what the investigation reveals but a lot of bad evidence is coming out and not much good. We'll see.


In reality its MLB versus every team that may have been bending the rules a bit, which was likely most of the contenders.

I have no problem with anyone wanting legitimate investigation of the mlb culture that possibly lead many teams to do this.

It's the morons like Vermin that only want to focus o the Astros that are worthy of ridicule.

Again, the bottom line is any team found guilty will be slapped on the wrist and life will go on.

The Astros will still be the team to beat in the AL. The 2017 World Series will still be awesome. And Arlington will never win anything of consequnce.
Wanna put money on it?
LDA9336
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Deluxe
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lda6339 said:





Anyone who watched Moneyball knows that baseball scouts are an emotionally sensitive bunch
JJxvi
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Tastybrisket10 said:

Silent For Too Long said:

Wow. The people of Arlington are so desperate for this to be a bigger deal then it is.

MLB knew teams were doing this. The Astros will get a slap on the wrist and life will go on.


If MLB knew everyone was doing this then why is Houston the only one getting the slap on the wrist? Also pretty sure outside of Texags in every neutral source I've read I haven't seen anyone defending Houston so pretty sure it's not just an "Arlington" thing...but at least it will make for a great motivational hashtag for Houston next year!
Two teams already have received slaps on the wrist. The Yankees and Red Sox. This is also why the Astros' arent going to get any sort of "death penalty" like the haters want, because the penalty framework has already been established. MLB will not be able to make some kind of "give up draft picks" or "vacate the world series" type of penalty for regular season 2017 violations because they already set a baseline of punishment for 2017 regular season violations with what they did, particularly to the Red Sox.

There will need to be evidence of something new, or magnitudes greater than what is in these articles. It will also likely need to turn up something from 2018 and 2019 (removing the World Series from play) for MLB to drop any sort of hammer.
03_Aggie
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lda6339 said:





So which is worse for one's reputation. Stealing signs or sharing internal emails from your employer because you're bitter?
Proposition Joe
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JJxvi said:

Tastybrisket10 said:

Silent For Too Long said:

Wow. The people of Arlington are so desperate for this to be a bigger deal then it is.

MLB knew teams were doing this. The Astros will get a slap on the wrist and life will go on.


If MLB knew everyone was doing this then why is Houston the only one getting the slap on the wrist? Also pretty sure outside of Texags in every neutral source I've read I haven't seen anyone defending Houston so pretty sure it's not just an "Arlington" thing...but at least it will make for a great motivational hashtag for Houston next year!
Two teams already have received slaps on the wrist. The Yankees and Red Sox. This is also why the Astros' arent going to get any sort of "death penalty" like the haters want, because the penalty framework has already been established. MLB will not be able to make some kind of "give up draft picks" or "vacate the world series" type of penalty for regular season 2017 violations because they already set a baseline of punishment for 2017 regular season violations with what they did, particularly to the Red Sox.

I guess if you want to completely ignore that after the Red Sox penalty the commissioner specifically stated that any team found violating this rule in the future would be subject to more serious sanctions - including possible loss of draft picks. And that some of the allegations that have surfaced have involved games after that penalty...

Guess he's just a "hater" and "butthurt" and "jealous" too.

No one realistically thinks there going to be any kind of vacating of a world series, but depending on what the investigation turns up I could absolutely see a draft pick forfeiture.
JJxvi
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Also btw, I hate to give some the vapors, but in the age of 100% video coverage, statcast, etc every team who has advance scouts employed is not using that scout to see any information about how that other teams plays baseball. The only real reason in the last few years to even employ MLB level advance scouts is to have somebody gather information about the signs how they are relayed, what verbal signals does the other team give, etc.
LDA9336
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ac04 said:


Here's Eireann Dolan, wife of Washington Nationals pitcher Sean Doolittle, debunking the "for review" theory






Trying to share both sides- here's Michael Morse' response-





One thing I thought was interesting that hasn't been discussed here yet-

In the 2nd Pic, you can see how the towels hanging up also conveniently block the view from the dugout/outside into the room the monitor is located at

Not trying to kick off another round of debate just wanted to post some updates. Lastly, if you want to see some more examples of go here (Reddit Link) where people are compiling examples of at bats with banging on only off speed pitches.
Proposition Joe
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Yeah I don't think the monitor picture is any kind of smoking gun. A thousand reasons for it to be down there.

It's only real significance is if they can identify who it is setting it up in the picture and something arises from questioning him.
LDA9336
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03_Aggie
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Proposition Joe said:

JJxvi said:

Tastybrisket10 said:

Silent For Too Long said:

Wow. The people of Arlington are so desperate for this to be a bigger deal then it is.

MLB knew teams were doing this. The Astros will get a slap on the wrist and life will go on.


If MLB knew everyone was doing this then why is Houston the only one getting the slap on the wrist? Also pretty sure outside of Texags in every neutral source I've read I haven't seen anyone defending Houston so pretty sure it's not just an "Arlington" thing...but at least it will make for a great motivational hashtag for Houston next year!
Two teams already have received slaps on the wrist. The Yankees and Red Sox. This is also why the Astros' arent going to get any sort of "death penalty" like the haters want, because the penalty framework has already been established. MLB will not be able to make some kind of "give up draft picks" or "vacate the world series" type of penalty for regular season 2017 violations because they already set a baseline of punishment for 2017 regular season violations with what they did, particularly to the Red Sox.

I guess if you want to completely ignore that after the Red Sox penalty the commissioner specifically stated that any team found violating this rule in the future would be subject to more serious sanctions - including possible loss of draft picks. And that some of the allegations that have surfaced have involved games after that penalty...

Guess he's just a "hater" and "butthurt" and "jealous" too.

No one realistically thinks there going to be any kind of vacating of a world series, but depending on what the investigation turns up I could absolutely see a draft pick forfeiture.


Things that happened in 2017 would not be "in the future."
Deluxe
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lda6339 said:


I'm surprised the MLBPA is allowing players to be interviewed
Deluxe
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I don't really think the pictures tell us anything we didn't already know. It's pretty clear the Astros had a sign relaying operation that likely included the use of video technology. Fiers testimony and the banging videos prove that like 95% of the way. The pictures maybe make it 96%. I dunno.

Regardless, I don't think they matter much because the relevant issue isn't whether or not the Astros employed technological sign stealing, it's more about the overarching context and how MLB can reasonably act within that context.

MLB clearly knew what they Astros were up to after the 2018 season. They put new/clarifying rules into place. They had people monitoring the Astros dugout for banging sounds. They had every opportunity to punish the Astros at that time, but they didn't.

Why not? It's pretty clear to me why they didn't. They wanted to prevent future rule abuses and sweep the past abuses under the rug. But how do they explain that to fans today who are pissed? I still think this issue will be trickier for MLB to navigate than it is for the Astros.
03_Aggie
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lda6339 said:




"Sources" told him Mike Fiers has been contacted by MLB....why not just say Mike Fiers told you he's been contacted by MLB.
Deluxe
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With all that said, if the electronic buzzer thing is proven to be true and the Astros used it in the 2019 playoffs, I will no longer defend them.
Flexbone
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lda6339 said:

Silent For Too Long said:

lda6339 said:

Astros fans desperately want to paint this a TEX v HOU or NYY v HOU thing, in reality its MLB v HOU. Need to wait and see what the investigation reveals but a lot of bad evidence is coming out and not much good. We'll see.


In reality its MLB versus every team that may have been bending the rules a bit, which was likely most of the contenders.

I have no problem with anyone wanting legitimate investigation of the mlb culture that possibly lead many teams to do this.

It's the morons like Vermin that only want to focus o the Astros that are worthy of ridicule.

Again, the bottom line is any team found guilty will be slapped on the wrist and life will go on.

The Astros will still be the team to beat in the AL. The 2017 World Series will still be awesome. And Arlington will never win anything of consequnce.
Wanna put money on it?


Yes. I'll gladly take the other side of any bet you're on.
LDA9336
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Flexbone said:

lda6339 said:

Silent For Too Long said:

lda6339 said:

Astros fans desperately want to paint this a TEX v HOU or NYY v HOU thing, in reality its MLB v HOU. Need to wait and see what the investigation reveals but a lot of bad evidence is coming out and not much good. We'll see.


In reality its MLB versus every team that may have been bending the rules a bit, which was likely most of the contenders.

I have no problem with anyone wanting legitimate investigation of the mlb culture that possibly lead many teams to do this.

It's the morons like Vermin that only want to focus o the Astros that are worthy of ridicule.

Again, the bottom line is any team found guilty will be slapped on the wrist and life will go on.

The Astros will still be the team to beat in the AL. The 2017 World Series will still be awesome. And Arlington will never win anything of consequnce.
Wanna put money on it?


Yes. I'll gladly take the other side of any bet you're on.
Define a "slap on the wrist" and name your amount
astros4545
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lda6339 said:

ac04 said:


Here's Eireann Dolan, wife of Washington Nationals pitcher Sean Doolittle, debunking the "for review" theory






Trying to share both sides- here's Michael Morse' response-





One thing I thought was interesting that hasn't been discussed here yet-

In the 2nd Pic, you can see how the towels hanging up also conveniently block the view from the dugout/outside into the room the monitor is located at

Not trying to kick off another round of debate just wanted to post some updates. Lastly, if you want to see some more examples of go here (Reddit Link) where people are compiling examples of at bats with banging on only off speed pitches.

Sean Doolittle is one of the biggest jokes in baseball

I can only imagine his wife (different last name) is a clown just the same as he is
LDA9336
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Do you have anything other than insults on your side to dispute her claims?
Proposition Joe
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03_Aggie said:

Proposition Joe said:

JJxvi said:

Tastybrisket10 said:

Silent For Too Long said:

Wow. The people of Arlington are so desperate for this to be a bigger deal then it is.

MLB knew teams were doing this. The Astros will get a slap on the wrist and life will go on.


If MLB knew everyone was doing this then why is Houston the only one getting the slap on the wrist? Also pretty sure outside of Texags in every neutral source I've read I haven't seen anyone defending Houston so pretty sure it's not just an "Arlington" thing...but at least it will make for a great motivational hashtag for Houston next year!
Two teams already have received slaps on the wrist. The Yankees and Red Sox. This is also why the Astros' arent going to get any sort of "death penalty" like the haters want, because the penalty framework has already been established. MLB will not be able to make some kind of "give up draft picks" or "vacate the world series" type of penalty for regular season 2017 violations because they already set a baseline of punishment for 2017 regular season violations with what they did, particularly to the Red Sox.

I guess if you want to completely ignore that after the Red Sox penalty the commissioner specifically stated that any team found violating this rule in the future would be subject to more serious sanctions - including possible loss of draft picks. And that some of the allegations that have surfaced have involved games after that penalty...

Guess he's just a "hater" and "butthurt" and "jealous" too.

No one realistically thinks there going to be any kind of vacating of a world series, but depending on what the investigation turns up I could absolutely see a draft pick forfeiture.


Things that happened in 2017 would not be "in the future."

"And that some of the allegations that have surfaced have involved games after that penalty..." by definition is "in the future".
Aggies2009
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Welp...
LDA9336
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Silent For Too Long said:

lda6339 said:

Astros fans desperately want to paint this a TEX v HOU or NYY v HOU thing, in reality its MLB v HOU. Need to wait and see what the investigation reveals but a lot of bad evidence is coming out and not much good. We'll see.


In reality its MLB versus every team that may have been bending the rules a bit, which was likely most of the contenders.

I have no problem with anyone wanting legitimate investigation of the mlb culture that possibly lead many teams to do this.

It's the morons like Vermin that only want to focus o the Astros that are worthy of ridicule.

Your takes didn't even take 24 hours to go cold, friend. Good thing you wont put your money where your mouth is.
KT 90
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Now they are using buzzers too? What the hell:

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/astros-sign-stealing-scandal-mlb-execs-reportedly-think-buzzing-bandages-may-have-been-used-to-relay-pitches/

Aggies2009
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KT 90 said:

Now they are using buzzers too? What the hell:

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/astros-sign-stealing-scandal-mlb-execs-reportedly-think-buzzing-bandages-may-have-been-used-to-relay-pitches/


If they spent as much time and money on developing players as they did cheating, they may have been able to win legit.
LDA9336
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Flexbone wya, I still want that bet
Deluxe
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KT 90 said:

Now they are using buzzers too? What the hell:

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/astros-sign-stealing-scandal-mlb-execs-reportedly-think-buzzing-bandages-may-have-been-used-to-relay-pitches/

Like I said before... if this is true and the Astros employed this tactic during the 2019 playoffs, they deserve whatever punishment comes their way.

But as of right now, this rumor is entirely unsubstantiated. It's a new age media trick where one journalist posts a rumor and then another journalist reports on that rumor, which makes it seem like a legit news story. Here is the quote this is all based on...

Quote:

In recent days I have had scouts and executives talk to me about a variety of methods they think have been or could be employed, such as a realistic-looking electronic bandage placed on a player's body that buzzes in real time to signal what is coming one buzz for a fastball, for example if the surveillance determines what type of pitching is coming. One person I spoke to has ties to the Astros and said he already had spoken to MLB's investigators.

There's alot of tactics that could fall under the umbrella of "have been or could be employed".
03_Aggie
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KT 90 said:

Now they are using buzzers too? What the hell:

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/astros-sign-stealing-scandal-mlb-execs-reportedly-think-buzzing-bandages-may-have-been-used-to-relay-pitches/




Well I guess now all these sleuths can shift gears and rewatch all the games to see if any batter flinched right before a pitch is delivered.
Proposition Joe
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Aggies2009 said:



Welp...

Commissioner must be a butthurt Rangers fan.
Deluxe
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Proposition Joe said:

Aggies2009 said:



Welp...

Commissioner must be a butthurt Rangers fan.
In fairness, I think he needed to say that even if he had damning evidence of all 29 other teams. Best not to open any unnecessary cans of worms at this point.
LDA9336
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Deluxe said:

Proposition Joe said:

Aggies2009 said:



Welp...

Commissioner must be a butthurt Rangers fan.
In fairness, I think he needed to say that even if he had damning evidence of all 29 other teams. Best not to open any unnecessary cans of worms at this point.
Its worth including the two other tweets, might as well debunk "Every team was doing it" and "it will just be a slap on the wrist" at the same time...

Deluxe
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I don't think the slap on the wrist part has been debunked. I still think that's a possible outcome. The punishment will depend on alot of information/factors, most of which the public is not yet privy to.

Part of that tweet was Jeff Passan editorializing based on what he'd like to see happen.
Aggies2009
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I do agree with the above poster that Manfred almost HAS to say that to save face for the league.

And I'm still convinced it WILL be a slap on the wrist. A few million bucks (which they more than made up in home games in the 2017 postseason) and a few draft picks (which won't affect the team for 5+ years, if ever) isn't enough. But that's probably what they'll do. They can't give a team the death penalty ala the White Sox in 1921- they stand to lose too much money.
Proposition Joe
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I'll call my shot - loss of two draft picks + fine.
Proposition Joe
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And they have to wear a scarlet letter 'C'.
Aggies2009
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Proposition Joe said:

I'll call my shot - loss of two draft picks + fine.
I would agree with this 100%, but that wouldn't really be a deterrent for future teams which is what Manfred has said he wants to do. We'll see.
 
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