Astros = CHEATERS

100,104 Views | 1442 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by halfastros81
astros4545
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ORAggieFan said:

I do love how half the arguments say no proof while the other half basically admits it because other teams do it. If I commit a crime many others commit, it doesn't mean what I did wasn't wrong.


It's not a crime if it's not illegal

Haven't seen any real or doctored videos from anything but 2017
TexasRebel
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Are you aware a team can steal signs without the help of electronics?

A square is both a rectangle and a rhombus.
ORAggieFan
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astros4545 said:

ORAggieFan said:

I do love how half the arguments say no proof while the other half basically admits it because other teams do it. If I commit a crime many others commit, it doesn't mean what I did wasn't wrong.


It's not a crime if it's not illegal

Haven't seen any real or doctored videos from anything but 2017

The rule existed in 2017. It is the year the Red Sox got fined and Manford said next punishment would be worse. Plenty of videos from 2017 on Twitter and this thread.
ORAggieFan
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TexasRebel said:

Are you aware a team can steal signs without the help of electronics?

A square is both a rectangle and a rhombus.

Your argument is they were stealing but they weren't using electronics? You were laughing typing that, right?
Bregxit
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Doug Ross said:

MelvinUdall said:

ORAggieFan said:

MelvinUdall said:

ORAggieFan said:

MelvinUdall said:

ORAggieFan said:

Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Jesus, the tipping of pitches was the pitchers actually tipping their pitches. So Yu tipping his pitches in game 7 of the 2017 WS was the Astros having a camera in CF of the Chavez Ravine?

Y'all are idiots.

I know this and you just proved my point. I'm not saying them picking up on the pitches was wrong of them. I'm proving if an MLB hitter knows they pitch they are at a massive advantage.


No, you moved the goalpost from stealing signs to tipping pitchers.

It is the batter knowing the pitch and nearly the same time. No matter how they get it, that is an advantage.




Again, are the Astros the only one? Or do the Astros, with above average talent, succeed because of the talent and technology?

I will hang up and listen.
the astros cheated with cameras, they got caught, it is illegal per MLB, and they should pay the price


I am not saying they didn't do it...but how do you figure they have been caught with illegal cameras? To date I have seen no footage of anything but the sound of the banging. Mike Fiers said they had a live feed from the center field camera in the tunnel which was not illegal in 2017. Carlos Beltran has refuted that the Astros did anything outside of the existing rules at the time. I am not sure there is a price to pay unless we want to apply the 2019 rule additions ex post facto to 2017. The Red Sox got busted utilizing Apple watches in some fashion which was against the 2017 rules...I can't remember what the Jankees got busted for at the same time.
hawk1689
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MelvinUdall said:




Uggh...I can't even believe my team did this.
FIFY.

Coach_Fran
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The only cure for this (from an Astros perspective) is to win, and win the right way. No one gives a damn about spygate or deflategate anymore because the Patriots proved that they didn't need underhanded tactics to win.
Focus on approaching the game the right way, throughout the organization, from the top down. And win. Win a lot. Then it'll be an afterthought
Proposition Joe
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My favorite is the comparison to the Patriots.

One is a dynasty that won 3 Super Bowls in 5 years.

Another is a team that purposely tanked entire seasons for 3 years to set themselves up to win... 1.

And apparently still needed to cheat to get it.
03_Aggie
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Coach_Fran said:

The only cure for this (from an Astros perspective) is to win, and win the right way. No one gives a damn about spygate or deflategate anymore because the Patriots proved that they didn't need underhanded tactics to win.
Focus on approaching the game the right way, throughout the organization, from the top down. And win. Win a lot. Then it'll be an afterthought


They already have. This is from 2017. They won 100+ games each of the following years.
Proposition Joe
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I'm sure they stopped doing it in 2017 just on their own accord.
eATMup-Reveille
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Danny Vermin said:

This should shock no-one as the Astros are trash just like their fans. Not only was 2017 a fluke, it was only because they cheated. It should be taken off the record books.

LOL...you are pure scum!!
eATMup-Reveille
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For all of you stupid@sses that think MLB will take away the title, understand that electronic sign stealing was not against the rules in 2017. So regardless of what is discovered, the championship stands. You can therefore stick it up your asterisk.

Even more ironic is that if you look at the home/away batting numbers, you may be surprised that the away numbers were better. So keep crying.
ORAggieFan
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Bregxit said:

Doug Ross said:

MelvinUdall said:

ORAggieFan said:

MelvinUdall said:

ORAggieFan said:

MelvinUdall said:

ORAggieFan said:

Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Jesus, the tipping of pitches was the pitchers actually tipping their pitches. So Yu tipping his pitches in game 7 of the 2017 WS was the Astros having a camera in CF of the Chavez Ravine?

Y'all are idiots.

I know this and you just proved my point. I'm not saying them picking up on the pitches was wrong of them. I'm proving if an MLB hitter knows they pitch they are at a massive advantage.


No, you moved the goalpost from stealing signs to tipping pitchers.

It is the batter knowing the pitch and nearly the same time. No matter how they get it, that is an advantage.




Again, are the Astros the only one? Or do the Astros, with above average talent, succeed because of the talent and technology?

I will hang up and listen.
the astros cheated with cameras, they got caught, it is illegal per MLB, and they should pay the price


I am not saying they didn't do it...but how do you figure they have been caught with illegal cameras? To date I have seen no footage of anything but the sound of the banging. Mike Fiers said they had a live feed from the center field camera in the tunnel which was not illegal in 2017. Carlos Beltran has refuted that the Astros did anything outside of the existing rules at the time. I am not sure there is a price to pay unless we want to apply the 2019 rule additions ex post facto to 2017. The Red Sox got busted utilizing Apple watches in some fashion which was against the 2017 rules...I can't remember what the Jankees got busted for at the same time.


Here is what Manfred said when he punished the Red Sox. If you're arguing the live camera isn't an electronic device, I guess we will see how he rules.

Quote:

Major League Baseball Regulations do, however, prohibit the use of electronic equipment during games and state that no such equipment 'may be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage.


And that was 2017 rules, which did prohibit but then made them stiffer later.

Also, the Yankees were fined for using the bullpen phone to discuss signs. I assume the live TV is fine but the bullpen phone every team has is covered under electronic devices?
Ag_07
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Speaking of Yankees and cheating...From the 2019 ALCS

aTm2004
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Murphy_(baseball)

Quote:

Murphy is mostly known today for his complicated, but innovative signs stealing techniques. When he was playing for the Philadelphia Phillies in 1898, he is credited as the inventor of a scheme where he positioned himself, along with a pair of field glasses, behind a whiskey advertisement on the outfield wall. There was a specific letter "O" that he would open or close to signal to the batter what pitch was going to be delivered. Later, in 1900, he devised another scheme where he was still placed behind the outfield wall, but instead would relay the catcher's signs by wire to a buzzer box inside the third base coach's box. The third base coach would then signal to the batter the sign.This latest scheme was discovered, however, when Tommy Corcoran of the Cincinnati Reds, tripped over he thought to be a vine coming out from under the ground, as he was rounding third base. Upon further inspection, the vine turned out to be a telegraph wire, and he proceeded to pull up out of the ground until it reach the spot where Murphy relayed his signals.
aTm2004
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But but but...that's not an electronic device! [/yankees/rangers/etc] But the printer it came from is.
Ag_07
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aTm2004 said:

But but but...that's not an electronic device! [/yankees/rangers/etc] But the printer it came from is.

THAT'S IT!!!

Strip the Yankees of every WS championship they have since the inception of the printer.
62strat
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So my question is, was AJ the mastermind of all this, or was he just a henchman?


bada-ching.
ORAggieFan
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Astros fan:
1. We didn't cheat
2. Everyone is doing it
3. It isn't an advantage
4. It wasn't an electric device

Reasonable fans:
1. Astros violated the rules
2. They will likely be punished including fines and possible loss of draft pick(s). No rational person is suggesting stripping of a championship based on current evidence.
3. Greater punishment should new evidence come to light in 2018 and 2019 seasons
4. It is probable other teams did similar, punish them too

LDA9336
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ORAggieFan said:

Astros fan:
1. We didn't cheat
2. Everyone is doing it
3. It isn't an advantage
4. It wasn't an electric device

Reasonable fans:
1. Astros violated the rules
2. They will likely be punished including fines and possible loss of draft pick(s)
3. Greater punishment should new evidence come to light in 2018 and 2019 seasons
4. It is probable other teams did similar, punish them too


Astros fan:
1. We didn't cheat you're just mad we won
2. Actually we did cheat but everyone is doing it so its not really cheating
3. Even though everyone is doing it, it isn't an advantage
4. Okay so maybe it is an advantage, but since it wasn't an electric device its not cheating.
5. We didn't cheat, repeat from step 1
Circular reasoning is circular
Frok
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Ag_07 said:

Speaking of Yankees and cheating...From the 2019 ALCS




Did Jomboy do a breakdown of this?
Mathguy64
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This thread is gold.

Rangers offseason thread is more than a month old with 235 posts. This thread is a day old with 195 posts, more than half of which are enraged Ranger fans. Well to be fair it was started by a Cubbie and includes a hypocritical fan of a Cards team that actually broke the law to cheat. Might as well rename it "trash talking thread"
Mathguy64
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lda6339 said:

ORAggieFan said:

Astros fan:
1. We didn't cheat
2. Everyone is doing it
3. It isn't an advantage
4. It wasn't an electric device

Reasonable fans:
1. Astros violated the rules
2. They will likely be punished including fines and possible loss of draft pick(s)
3. Greater punishment should new evidence come to light in 2018 and 2019 seasons
4. It is probable other teams did similar, punish them too


Astros fan:
1. We didn't cheat you're just mad we won
2. Actually we did cheat but everyone is doing it so its not really cheating
3. Even though everyone is doing it, it isn't an advantage
4. Okay so maybe it is an advantage, but since it wasn't an electric device its not cheating.
5. We didn't cheat, repeat from step 1
Circular reasoning is circular


And this is from the fan of a team that actually broke the law to cheat. Pure gold Jerry. Pure gold.

Be careful of that high horse you are on. It's a long way down when you fall.
eATMup-Reveille
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I wonder how many of you would say that our Ags SWC championships of the mid 80's to 90's should be taken away as we were providing benefits to players against the rules. I suppose it would depend on which face your are talking out of.
ClickClack
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Proposition Joe said:

My favorite is the comparison to the Patriots.

One is a dynasty that won 3 Super Bowls in 5 years.

Another is a team that purposely tanked entire seasons for 3 years to set themselves up to win... 1.

And apparently still needed to cheat to get it.


I love how rangers fans always fall back on the tanking thing like it somehow nullifies something. It's called rebuilding. Teams do it all the time in every sport. It worked. Sorry the organization you root for isn't smart enough to unload high paid talent for prospects when you're not in contention.
LDA9336
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mathguy86 said:

lda6339 said:

ORAggieFan said:

Astros fan:
1. We didn't cheat
2. Everyone is doing it
3. It isn't an advantage
4. It wasn't an electric device

Reasonable fans:
1. Astros violated the rules
2. They will likely be punished including fines and possible loss of draft pick(s)
3. Greater punishment should new evidence come to light in 2018 and 2019 seasons
4. It is probable other teams did similar, punish them too


Astros fan:
1. We didn't cheat you're just mad we won
2. Actually we did cheat but everyone is doing it so its not really cheating
3. Even though everyone is doing it, it isn't an advantage
4. Okay so maybe it is an advantage, but since it wasn't an electric device its not cheating.
5. We didn't cheat, repeat from step 1
Circular reasoning is circular


And this is from the fan of a team that actually broke the law to cheat. Pure gold Jerry. Pure gold.

Be careful of that high horse you are on. It's a long way down when you fall.
Is this the part where you refute any of the points I made, or can I assume deep down you agree they are accurate?
aTm2004
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ClickClack said:

Proposition Joe said:

My favorite is the comparison to the Patriots.

One is a dynasty that won 3 Super Bowls in 5 years.

Another is a team that purposely tanked entire seasons for 3 years to set themselves up to win... 1.

And apparently still needed to cheat to get it.


I love how rangers fans always fall back on the tanking thing like it somehow nullifies something. It's called rebuilding. Teams do it all the time in every sport. It worked. Sorry the organization you root for isn't smart enough to unload high paid talent for prospects when you're not in contention.
Hell, the Rangers have been doing it for the past 7 or 8 years.
03_Aggie
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ClickClack said:



I love how rangers fans always fall back on the tanking thing like it somehow nullifies something. It's called rebuilding. Teams do it all the time in every sport. It worked. Sorry the organization you root for isn't smart enough to unload high paid talent for prospects when you're not in contention.


But we appreciate your ineptness.
CampingAg
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While I do think this does happen other places, I believe it's very isolated. If "everybody illegally steals signs" as many fans are using as a defense, catchers everywhere would be mixing up signs without a runner on second. You rarely (if ever) see that. Every team tries to pick signs and look for tells with their eyeballs. Not everybody uses electronics.
Aggies2009
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CampingAg said:

While I do think this does happen other places, I believe it's very isolated. If "everybody illegally steals signs" as many fans are using as a defense, catchers everywhere would be mixing up signs without a runner on second. You rarely (if ever) see that. Every team tries to pick signs and look for tells with their eyeballs. Not everybody uses electronics.
It's pure whataboutism, nothing more. If you look, there is TONS of deflection going on. Most of it has turned into ad hominem attacks on other teams. It's like the child who throws a tantrum when they get caught doing something wrong. It started with AJ Hinch being a ****bag over it and has apparently spilled over to the fans and culture surrounding that franchise.
ORAggieFan
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To be fair, the intelligent fans stay out of arguments like this because they know there is no defense.
03_Aggie
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Aggies2009 said:

CampingAg said:

While I do think this does happen other places, I believe it's very isolated. If "everybody illegally steals signs" as many fans are using as a defense, catchers everywhere would be mixing up signs without a runner on second. You rarely (if ever) see that. Every team tries to pick signs and look for tells with their eyeballs. Not everybody uses electronics.
It's pure whataboutism, nothing more. If you look, there is TONS of deflection going on. Most of it has turned into ad hominem attacks on other teams. It's like the child who throws a tantrum when they get caught doing something wrong. It started with AJ Hinch being a ****bag over it and has apparently spilled over to the fans and culture surrounding that franchise.


Damn, you sure have a way with debate buzz words.
Proposition Joe
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ClickClack said:

Proposition Joe said:

My favorite is the comparison to the Patriots.

One is a dynasty that won 3 Super Bowls in 5 years.

Another is a team that purposely tanked entire seasons for 3 years to set themselves up to win... 1.

And apparently still needed to cheat to get it.


I love how rangers fans always fall back on the tanking thing like it somehow nullifies something. It's called rebuilding. Teams do it all the time in every sport. It worked. Sorry the organization you root for isn't smart enough to unload high paid talent for prospects when you're not in contention.

The Astros lost 416 games over a 4 year period. Average of 104 losses a year.

That had never been done in modern baseball.

Ever.
Aggies2009
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03_Aggie said:

Aggies2009 said:

CampingAg said:

While I do think this does happen other places, I believe it's very isolated. If "everybody illegally steals signs" as many fans are using as a defense, catchers everywhere would be mixing up signs without a runner on second. You rarely (if ever) see that. Every team tries to pick signs and look for tells with their eyeballs. Not everybody uses electronics.
It's pure whataboutism, nothing more. If you look, there is TONS of deflection going on. Most of it has turned into ad hominem attacks on other teams. It's like the child who throws a tantrum when they get caught doing something wrong. It started with AJ Hinch being a ****bag over it and has apparently spilled over to the fans and culture surrounding that franchise.


Damn, you sure have a way with debate buzz words.
I mean, if you use pathetic tactics to defend, they're going to be pointed out. Amazing concept, isn't it?

How hard is it to say, "Man, if this is true (and it looks like it is), that's pretty disappointing."?
Prime0882
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03_Aggie said:

Aggies2009 said:

CampingAg said:

While I do think this does happen other places, I believe it's very isolated. If "everybody illegally steals signs" as many fans are using as a defense, catchers everywhere would be mixing up signs without a runner on second. You rarely (if ever) see that. Every team tries to pick signs and look for tells with their eyeballs. Not everybody uses electronics.
It's pure whataboutism, nothing more. If you look, there is TONS of deflection going on. Most of it has turned into ad hominem attacks on other teams. It's like the child who throws a tantrum when they get caught doing something wrong. It started with AJ Hinch being a ****bag over it and has apparently spilled over to the fans and culture surrounding that franchise.


Damn, you sure have a way with debate buzz words.
Sounds like someone who spends too much time on Forum 16.
 
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