Astros = CHEATERS

111,236 Views | 1476 Replies | Last: 5 days ago by Aggies2009
LDA9336
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Aggies2009 said:

I do agree with the above poster that Manfred almost HAS to say that to save face for the league.

And I'm still convinced it WILL be a slap on the wrist. A few million bucks (which they more than made up in home games in the 2017 postseason) and a few draft picks (which won't affect the team for 5+ years, if ever) isn't enough. But that's probably what they'll do. They can't give a team the death penalty ala the White Sox in 1921- they stand to lose too much money.
Don't see lost draft picks as a slap on the wrist, but I also see them getting hit with way more than just a lost draft pick or two.
Proposition Joe
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Aggies2009 said:

Proposition Joe said:

I'll call my shot - loss of two draft picks + fine.
I would agree with this 100%, but that wouldn't really be a deterrent for future teams which is what Manfred has said he wants to do. We'll see.

Loss of 2 draft picks is a deterrent. Sure it's down the road but it eventually stings.
ORAggieFan
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Aggies2009 said:

Proposition Joe said:

I'll call my shot - loss of two draft picks + fine.
I would agree with this 100%, but that wouldn't really be a deterrent for future teams which is what Manfred has said he wants to do. We'll see.

Loss of two draft picks is pretty big. I think punishment will be worse if they find it extended into 2019.
Deluxe
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ORAggieFan said:

Aggies2009 said:

Proposition Joe said:

I'll call my shot - loss of two draft picks + fine.
I would agree with this 100%, but that wouldn't really be a deterrent for future teams which is what Manfred has said he wants to do. We'll see.

Loss of two draft picks is pretty big. I think punishment will be worse if they find it extended into 2019.
Agreed. If this is just a 2017 thing, I think it will be fine plus maybe the loss of a pick or two. This seems more likely at the moment.

If they find it extended into 2019 using some super sketchy method like buzzers, that's where I think long suspensions or even a lifetime ban for individuals comes into play.
twilly
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While a loss of draft picks is not good, a potential loss in international slot dollars would be huge.

I could also see some staff suspended for a certain amount of games, and potentially MLB employees positioned in the dugout/walkway areas to monitor how video is used.
DannyDuberstein
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Proposition Joe said:

Aggies2009 said:



Welp...

Commissioner must be a butthurt Rangers fan.
I think it's funny how the Rangers are in some of your heads so bad. Permanent residency.
Aggies2009
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Proposition Joe said:

Aggies2009 said:

Proposition Joe said:

I'll call my shot - loss of two draft picks + fine.
I would agree with this 100%, but that wouldn't really be a deterrent for future teams which is what Manfred has said he wants to do. We'll see.

Loss of 2 draft picks is a deterrent. Sure it's down the road but it eventually stings.
Yeah, but in that case, winning a championship would have been well worth sacrificing 2 draft picks. When we say, "deterrent" I feel like it would mean something that would make a team not want to do it again, not look at the situation and say, "Man, we can win a championship but may hurt a little in 5 years. Let's do it!"
Deluxe
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Aggies2009 said:


Yeah, but in that case, winning a championship would have been well worth sacrificing 2 draft picks. When we say, "deterrent" I feel like it would mean something that would make a team not want to do it again, not look at the situation and say, "Man, we can win a championship but may hurt a little in 5 years. Let's do it!"
IMO that's the stance MLB took after the 2018 season. They said we know some shenanigans went on in the past and there were some gray areas in the rules. But now those gray areas are gone and if we catch you, there will be severe consequences. The Astros won their title before MLB took that hardline stance and warned everyone, so 2017 transgressions should be judged in a different light than any potential 2019 transgressions.

2017 guilt - fine, maybe loss of pick, maybe short suspension for Hinch
2019 guilt - long suspensions, lifetime bans, etc
Aggies2009
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Deluxe said:

Aggies2009 said:


Yeah, but in that case, winning a championship would have been well worth sacrificing 2 draft picks. When we say, "deterrent" I feel like it would mean something that would make a team not want to do it again, not look at the situation and say, "Man, we can win a championship but may hurt a little in 5 years. Let's do it!"
IMO that's the stance MLB took after the 2018 season. They said we know some shenanigans went on in the past and there were some gray areas in the rules. But now those gray areas are gone and if we catch you, there will be severe consequences. The Astros won their title before MLB took that hardline stance and warned everyone, so 2017 transgressions should be judged in a different light than any potential 2019 transgressions.

2017 guilt - fine, maybe loss of pick, maybe short suspension for Hinch
2019 guilt - long suspensions, lifetime bans, etc
Yep. Supposedly the league had people stationed and "listening for bangs" in 2019. So they knew about the 2017 allegations but seemingly were trying to keep that under wraps and move on with the new rules in place.
MaxPower
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lda6339 said:

Deluxe said:

Proposition Joe said:

Aggies2009 said:



Welp...

Commissioner must be a butthurt Rangers fan.
In fairness, I think he needed to say that even if he had damning evidence of all 29 other teams. Best not to open any unnecessary cans of worms at this point.
Its worth including the two other tweets, might as well debunk "Every team was doing it" and "it will just be a slap on the wrist" at the same time...


This is my concern. My translation is they aren't even conducting due diligence to find out how pervasive this is. Cora was here for one season then went to the Red Sox. Beltran was here one season after coming from the Yankees. You telling me they didn't bring some of this crap from or to those teams? What about Elias going to Baltimore after 2017? Also, MLB starting secretly investigating this in 2019 by investigating clubhouses, etc. Why would they do that if it were one rogue team? Couldn't they have gotten ahead of it and punished us a year ago rather than keep it a secret and wait for some hack reporters to drudge it up?

The Astros better have their own team of investigators looking at other clubs to make sure they have the appropriate leverage when Manfred decides he wants to try to make them the fall guy.
West Point Aggie
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Stros gonna get hammered...HARD
Flexbone
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It's hilarious watching people cite the Manfred tweet as PROOF this isn't widespread. An investigation slated to take months that just started...and they believe that statement by him concludes the matter.

It's incredible how slow some people are, even those with degrees from a good school.
DannyDuberstein
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Notice the use of future tense of his comments about the investigation. Expect it to be very thorough which means it could end up eventually involving other teams, but quite expectedly, he's not going to throw anyone else under the bus this early. Expect anyone caught doing it after 2017 to get ****ing hammered. Big time hammered. Huge fines, significant draft picks, lifetime bans. It will make the St Louis Correa punishment, which was $2 mill, 2 good picks, and a lifetime ban look like a traffic ticket.
Silent For Too Long
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lda6339 said:

Silent For Too Long said:

lda6339 said:

Astros fans desperately want to paint this a TEX v HOU or NYY v HOU thing, in reality its MLB v HOU. Need to wait and see what the investigation reveals but a lot of bad evidence is coming out and not much good. We'll see.


In reality its MLB versus every team that may have been bending the rules a bit, which was likely most of the contenders.

I have no problem with anyone wanting legitimate investigation of the mlb culture that possibly lead many teams to do this.

It's the morons like Vermin that only want to focus o the Astros that are worthy of ridicule.

Your takes didn't even take 24 hours to go cold, friend. Good thing you wont put your money where your mouth is.


So you honestly think the Astros are the only ones MLB is investigating?

You're dumber then I thought.

And, yes, if they find something from 2019 the Astros are likely in trouble. I have yet to see any credible evidence they will.

If it's just 2017, again, slap on the wrist and life goes on. Keep your hopes up, though. It'll make watching your inevitable disappointment much more enjoyable.
r2row23
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2017 they won the World Series*
2018 they don't win because Cora knew what was going on
2019 they forgot how to cheat
Proposition Joe
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This is why Flexbone posts are so gold... Guy goes from saying "people that believe because of a few allegations the Astros might be guilty are dumbasses" to days later "people that believe that this isn't widespread are dumbasses".

In a few months after penalties are handed out it'll be "people who though the Astros wouldn't be penalized for this are dumbasses".
Silent For Too Long
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Says the guy who quickly changed his tune after his first post blew up in his face.
LDA9336
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Flexbone said:

It's hilarious watching people cite the Manfred tweet as PROOF this isn't widespread. An investigation slated to take months that just started...and they believe that statement by him concludes the matter.

It's incredible how slow some people are, even those with degrees from a good school.
Another thing we can bet on? Or will you ignore this one like my last offer
LDA9336
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Proposition Joe said:

This is why Flexbone posts are so gold... Guy goes from saying "people that believe because of a few allegations the Astros might be guilty are dumbasses" to days later "people that believe that this isn't widespread are dumbasses".

In a few months after penalties are handed out it'll be "people who though the Astros wouldn't be penalized for this are dumbasses".
Flexbone relies heavily on insults to come across like he knows what he's talking about.

Regardless- everything thats came out so far has flown in the face of the narrative the stros have wanted to push. Its gone something like this.

1) accusations come out
"We weren't cheating, this isnt proof, the banging could have been anything"
2) more proof, like, an undeniable amount of proof
"it was legal in 2017"
3) Astros had to be watched for it after 2017
"well there's no proof we were using a camera"
4) a setup exactly like the one Fiers described is his accusations is found in the World Series Video
"a simple monitor is not proof, it proves nothing, that was for replay"
5) well, no - replay is handled somewhere else in MMP.
"well maybe it was to watch at bats, besides even if we did cheat everyone was doing it" (they say with no proof)
6) commissioner says they have no reason to believe anyone else was doing it
"well thats not proof, of course he will say that to protect the league - we'll get a slap on the wrist and be the fall guy"
7) commissioner says he will bring the hammer down if anything is proven
"well we need to wait and see what the investigation says"

They move the goal posts for "proof" of each individual claim instead of realizing the totality of evidence is quite damning. Luckily the internet is forever and in three months when this wraps up, we will all be back here to laugh some more.
LDA9336
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Flexbone said:

It's hilarious watching people cite the Manfred tweet as PROOF this isn't widespread. An investigation slated to take months that just started...and they believe that statement by him concludes the matter.

It's incredible how slow some people are, even those with degrees from a good school.
Its hilarious watching Astros fans cite the fact that everyone was doing it with literally no PROOF whatsoever.

Or do you have something you'd like to share other than opinion that "everyone was doing it", perhaps some videos?
Silent For Too Long
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Quote:

7) commissioner says he will bring the hammer down if anything is proven
"well we need to wait and see what the investigation says"


Now you are just lying.

That's not what he said. Go reread it.
LDA9336
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Silent For Too Long said:

Quote:

7) commissioner says he will bring the hammer down if anything is proven
"well we need to wait and see what the investigation says"


Now you are just lying.

That's not what he said. Go reread it.
I wasn't referring to any specific one person in my post. You go reread it

Start here-
Quote:

Regardless- everything thats came out so far has flown in the face of the narrative the stros have wanted to push. Its gone something like this.
Silent For Too Long
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I'm referring to the commissioner.
LDA9336
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Silent For Too Long said:

I'm referring to the commissioner.
Let me help you-
paraphrase
express the meaning of (the writer or speaker or something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity.

I guess you guys have started grasping at straws now that you're nitpicking the ticky tack rather than continuing to invent narratives only to have evidence fly in the face of them.
03_Aggie
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lda6339 said:


I guess you guys have started grasping at straws now that you're nitpicking the ticky tack rather than continuing to invent narrativesonly to have evidence fly in the face of them.


Lol.
South Platte
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Just put an asterisk by their title and let's get back to baseball.
Aggies2009
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lda6339 said:

Proposition Joe said:

This is why Flexbone posts are so gold... Guy goes from saying "people that believe because of a few allegations the Astros might be guilty are dumbasses" to days later "people that believe that this isn't widespread are dumbasses".

In a few months after penalties are handed out it'll be "people who though the Astros wouldn't be penalized for this are dumbasses".
Flexbone relies heavily on insults to come across like he knows what he's talking about.

Regardless- everything thats came out so far has flown in the face of the narrative the stros have wanted to push. Its gone something like this.

1) accusations come out
"We weren't cheating, this isnt proof, the banging could have been anything"
2) more proof, like, an undeniable amount of proof
"it was legal in 2017"
3) Astros had to be watched for it after 2017
"well there's no proof we were using a camera"
4) a setup exactly like the one Fiers described is his accusations is found in the World Series Video
"a simple monitor is not proof, it proves nothing, that was for replay"
5) well, no - replay is handled somewhere else in MMP.
"well maybe it was to watch at bats, besides even if we did cheat everyone was doing it" (they say with no proof)
6) commissioner says they have no reason to believe anyone else was doing it
"well thats not proof, of course he will say that to protect the league - we'll get a slap on the wrist and be the fall guy"
7) commissioner says he will bring the hammer down if anything is proven
"well we need to wait and see what the investigation says"

They move the goal posts for "proof" of each individual claim instead of realizing the totality of evidence is quite damning. Luckily the internet is forever and in three months when this wraps up, we will all be back here to laugh some more.
It's like he's going through the stages of grief but anger is always there lol!
PneumAg
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South Platte said:

Just put an asterisk by their title and let's get back to baseball.


Agreed with this. The national media are doing their best to blow this up into a massive scandal. It is a scandal, and it's a pretty big deal in baseball, but I keep seeing these news articles/videos about it from CBS and others that are literally like "BIGGEST SCANDAL IN NORTH AMERICAN SPORTS HISTORY." Give me a break.
City Dumme
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A coworked told me that Hinch could be banned from baseball permanently because of the combination of this scandal and pulling Grenke too early.
Nino Brown
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lda6339 said:

Flexbone said:

It's hilarious watching people cite the Manfred tweet as PROOF this isn't widespread. An investigation slated to take months that just started...and they believe that statement by him concludes the matter.

It's incredible how slow some people are, even those with degrees from a good school.
Its hilarious watching Astros fans cite the fact that everyone was doing it with literally no PROOF whatsoever.

Or do you have something you'd like to share other than opinion that "everyone was doing it", perhaps some videos?
No edited sound videos have appeared to this point only statements by opposing teams that technology was used to steal signs directly from dugouts. I'm sure if there were enough media members with an agenda against certain clubs, you'd see some video evidence by now.


https://nypost.com/2017/09/07/red-sox-we-have-video-of-the-yankees-cheating/
LDA9336
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Nino Brown said:

lda6339 said:

Flexbone said:

It's hilarious watching people cite the Manfred tweet as PROOF this isn't widespread. An investigation slated to take months that just started...and they believe that statement by him concludes the matter.

It's incredible how slow some people are, even those with degrees from a good school.
Its hilarious watching Astros fans cite the fact that everyone was doing it with literally no PROOF whatsoever.

Or do you have something you'd like to share other than opinion that "everyone was doing it", perhaps some videos?
No edited sound videos have appeared to this point only statements by opposing teams that technology was used to steal signs directly from dugouts. I'm sure if there were enough media members with an agenda against certain clubs, you'd see some video evidence by now.


https://nypost.com/2017/09/07/red-sox-we-have-video-of-the-yankees-cheating/
2/30 teams =/= "Widespread" my friend.
Nino Brown
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lda6339 said:

Nino Brown said:

lda6339 said:

Flexbone said:

It's hilarious watching people cite the Manfred tweet as PROOF this isn't widespread. An investigation slated to take months that just started...and they believe that statement by him concludes the matter.

It's incredible how slow some people are, even those with degrees from a good school.
Its hilarious watching Astros fans cite the fact that everyone was doing it with literally no PROOF whatsoever.

Or do you have something you'd like to share other than opinion that "everyone was doing it", perhaps some videos?
No edited sound videos have appeared to this point only statements by opposing teams that technology was used to steal signs directly from dugouts. I'm sure if there were enough media members with an agenda against certain clubs, you'd see some video evidence by now.


https://nypost.com/2017/09/07/red-sox-we-have-video-of-the-yankees-cheating/
2/30 teams =/= "Widespread" my friend.
Huh, I'm pretty sure you have no f-ing friends sitting on this story as your "Joy" moment in life. Maybe the mirror but I seriously doubt it. Is your mind really that basic? Where is the story and "clicks" and dollars about a ****ty team cheating? Psychology and Journalism is something you skipped obviously.
Deluxe
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lda6339 said:

Flexbone said:

It's hilarious watching people cite the Manfred tweet as PROOF this isn't widespread. An investigation slated to take months that just started...and they believe that statement by him concludes the matter.

It's incredible how slow some people are, even those with degrees from a good school.
Its hilarious watching Astros fans cite the fact that everyone was doing it with literally no PROOF whatsoever.

Or do you have something you'd like to share other than opinion that "everyone was doing it", perhaps some videos?
Widespread doesn't necessarily mean every team was doing it. Clearly some teams were abusing the rules more than others. But this article from before the 2019 season explicitly says issue extended much further beyond the Astros.

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/02/19/major-league-baseball-sign-stealing-rule-change

Quote:

GLENDALE, Ariz. Major League Baseball is cracking down on high-tech sign stealing. It is banning all non-broadcast outfield cameras from foul pole to foul pole as well as tightening restrictions on in-house video, several sources familiar with the new rules told SI. Teams violating the protocols face penalties that include the loss of draft picks and international spending money.

Commissioner Rob Manfred believed the restrictions were necessary because high-tech sign stealing grew more prevalent and slowed the pace of play because of the paranoia it engendered. Last November general managers thoroughly endorsed the adopting of such rules rather than engage in what they saw as a coming "high-tech arms race to cheat," according to one source.

About six teams last year were commonly understood to have installed in-house cameras in centerfield that were trained on opposing catchers' signs, according to one general manager. Several other teams were under heavy suspicion. The sign stealing forced most teams to adopt multiple sets of signs even with the bases empty. Those signs were changed often, even within at-bats, which slowed the pace of play.

As has been discussed numerous times on this thread, Manfred knew what was going on around the league and addressed it before the 2019 season. Lots of commentary of desire for Manfred to put his foot down to make sure this doesn't happen again. That's basically what Manfred did earlier this year. Crimes committed before 2019 can fairly be looked as part of a league-wide issue (not just an Astros issue). Heck. Ken Rosenthal basically wrote that last night.
LDA9336
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Nino Brown said:

lda6339 said:

Nino Brown said:

lda6339 said:

Flexbone said:

It's hilarious watching people cite the Manfred tweet as PROOF this isn't widespread. An investigation slated to take months that just started...and they believe that statement by him concludes the matter.

It's incredible how slow some people are, even those with degrees from a good school.
Its hilarious watching Astros fans cite the fact that everyone was doing it with literally no PROOF whatsoever.

Or do you have something you'd like to share other than opinion that "everyone was doing it", perhaps some videos?
No edited sound videos have appeared to this point only statements by opposing teams that technology was used to steal signs directly from dugouts. I'm sure if there were enough media members with an agenda against certain clubs, you'd see some video evidence by now.


https://nypost.com/2017/09/07/red-sox-we-have-video-of-the-yankees-cheating/
2/30 teams =/= "Widespread" my friend.
Huh, I'm pretty sure you have no f-ing friends sitting on this story as your "Joy" moment in life. Maybe the mirror but I seriously doubt it. Is your mind really that basic? Where is the story and "clicks" and dollars about a ****ty team cheating? Psychology and Journalism is something you skipped obviously.

Quote:

Where is the story and "clicks" and dollars about a ****ty team cheating?
If you think cheating doesn't make headlines regardless of whose doing it I can't help you.
LDA9336
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