Astros = CHEATERS

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Flexbone
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investorAg83 said:

J. Walter Weatherman said:

Every other team was going 20 mph over the speed limit and we decided to go 30 over and got caught. The drama queens act like the Astros disgraced the game when sign stealing (and other various forms of rule-bending/breaking) has been a part of baseball forever.


Good grief why can the apologists understand the difference. Sign stealing isn't cheating. It's part of baseball. You strategize around it.

Using technology that isn't available to the team you're playing against in an effort to give you a distinct advantage (I.e. knowing whether an off speed pitch is coming...yes, it's always been easier to hit an off speed pitch if you know it's coming, '03) is cheating. THAT'S the part of this that is cheating.


No. It wasn't.
J. Walter Weatherman
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Never said they didn't cheat, they did and have been punished. Just saying pretending like it's some dramatic, massive scandal completely outside the norm of what other teams were doing is ludicrous, especially when the ringleader (Beltran) reportedly only started it because the Astros sign stealing was "behind the times" of everything else he had seen.
AustinAg2K
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I think the best analogy for the Astros scandal is paying players in college football. Everyone does it. When a team gets caught, they get punished. It's perfectly fine to make fun of a team when they get caught, but don't act like your team doesn't do it to. They are all doing it at some level.
Lt. Joe Bookman
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AG
03_Aggie said:

I don't blame you. I was disappointed at first. The more I thought about it, the more I figured this is much ado about nothing.

Distinguishing between a fast ball and a breaking ball isn't that beneficial. Maybe against a pitcher with only two pitches, but knowing what's coming and hitting what's coming are two completely different things.


Wow.

Then why did the Astros even go through the ordeal of doing it then? If only they had known that it wouldn't make a difference!
DannyDuberstein
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AG
Flexbone said:

investorAg83 said:

J. Walter Weatherman said:

Every other team was going 20 mph over the speed limit and we decided to go 30 over and got caught. The drama queens act like the Astros disgraced the game when sign stealing (and other various forms of rule-bending/breaking) has been a part of baseball forever.


Good grief why can the apologists understand the difference. Sign stealing isn't cheating. It's part of baseball. You strategize around it.

Using technology that isn't available to the team you're playing against in an effort to give you a distinct advantage (I.e. knowing whether an off speed pitch is coming...yes, it's always been easier to hit an off speed pitch if you know it's coming, '03) is cheating. THAT'S the part of this that is cheating.


No. It wasn't.


Well, maybe someone should pull their head out of their board certified ass long enough to tell Hinch and Lunhow they were fired for not cheating
coconutED
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AG
Quote:

I think the best analogy for the Astros scandal is paying players in college football. Everyone does it. When a team gets caught, they get punished. It's perfectly fine to make fun of a team when they get caught, but don't act like your team doesn't do it to. They are all doing it at some level.
And to continue the analogy, there are hardly ever any real consequences, even when caught, so the behavior will continue...to the point where everybody has to do it, otherwise they won't be competitive.
DannyDuberstein
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AG
Flexbone said:

DannyDuberstein said:

Yes, my baseball franchise has a set of 48 year old blue balls. I will not deny or defend that. But I'm not sure if that is better or worse than my franchise finally getting sweet release from its 58 year old set of blue balls only to have the hiv test come back positive later


Only people stupid enough - or wanting to discount another's achievement because it makes them feel
Better about their own lack of success - to believe this wasn't pervasive across the sport would express such a ridiculous sentiment.


I don't have to discount it. They did it themselves. And the entire baseball following nation is discounting it
DannyDuberstein
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coconutED said:

Quote:

I think the best analogy for the Astros scandal is paying players in college football. Everyone does it. When a team gets caught, they get punished. It's perfectly fine to make fun of a team when they get caught, but don't act like your team doesn't do it to. They are all doing it at some level.
And to continue the analogy, there are hardly ever any real consequences, even when caught, so the behavior will continue...to the point where everybody has to do it, otherwise they won't be competitive.



This poster has definitely worked himself up to the Kubler-Ross bargaining stage. They now HAD to do it just to keep up with the rest of baseball
coconutED
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AG
You think I'm defending the Astros? That's cute.
03_Aggie
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Lt. Joe Bookman said:

03_Aggie said:

I don't blame you. I was disappointed at first. The more I thought about it, the more I figured this is much ado about nothing.

Distinguishing between a fast ball and a breaking ball isn't that beneficial. Maybe against a pitcher with only two pitches, but knowing what's coming and hitting what's coming are two completely different things.


Wow.

Then why did the Astros even go through the ordeal of doing it then? If only they had known that it wouldn't make a difference!


I mean if all you have is "why'd they do it if it didn't work?" Then I'll ask, why isn't stealing signs illegal if it creates such an advantage?
Lt. Joe Bookman
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03_Aggie said:

Lt. Joe Bookman said:

03_Aggie said:

I don't blame you. I was disappointed at first. The more I thought about it, the more I figured this is much ado about nothing.

Distinguishing between a fast ball and a breaking ball isn't that beneficial. Maybe against a pitcher with only two pitches, but knowing what's coming and hitting what's coming are two completely different things.


Wow.

Then why did the Astros even go through the ordeal of doing it then? If only they had known that it wouldn't make a difference!


I mean if all you have is "why'd they do it if it didn't work?" Then I'll ask, why isn't stealing signs illegal if it creates such an advantage?

The way the Astros did... is illegal.
Aggies2009
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AG
Manfred is bad for baseball. He's a spineless coward who's scared ****less of the MLBPA. He needs to be gone.
SquirrellyDan
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AG
For those who don't remember....

https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2017/9/6/16262734/mlb-punishment-red-sox-sign-stealing-yankees-fines-hurricane-relief-apple-watch?fbclid=IwAR3lvPB0ylSng1AQj3864gMVDT6CKkZMcFzZ5O8k-jjMH97uilZXwk1U470


But yes, I'm sure it was just the Astros
Aggies2009
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AG


Hmmm
MaxPower
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So he got a tattoo in 2 days to cover up for an investigation that wasn't going on yet and wouldn't occur at all save for a guy in the future popping off because he had an axe to grind? No you're right, this definitely happened. Altuve is Lex Luthor level evil genius.
Flexbone
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DannyDuberstein said:

Flexbone said:

investorAg83 said:

J. Walter Weatherman said:

Every other team was going 20 mph over the speed limit and we decided to go 30 over and got caught. The drama queens act like the Astros disgraced the game when sign stealing (and other various forms of rule-bending/breaking) has been a part of baseball forever.


Good grief why can the apologists understand the difference. Sign stealing isn't cheating. It's part of baseball. You strategize around it.

Using technology that isn't available to the team you're playing against in an effort to give you a distinct advantage (I.e. knowing whether an off speed pitch is coming...yes, it's always been easier to hit an off speed pitch if you know it's coming, '03) is cheating. THAT'S the part of this that is cheating.


No. It wasn't.


Well, maybe someone should pull their head out of their board certified ass long enough to tell Hinch and Lunhow they were fired for not cheating


You're almost 50 years old and here you are, all day for multiple days, seething over a bunch of professional athletes that have absolutely nothing to do with his clearly uneventful, mediocre life.

Let me help you, because you clearly need it: these two things aren't mutually exclusive. They were fired....and it still wasn't against the rules. By the way, did you miss the part where the Yankees..who the Astros beat on their way to being the best team in baseball..were popped for using Apple watches and doing the same thing? What was it like cheering for them at that time because you were so pathetically bitter about your own team being terrible?
Flexbone
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Lt. Joe Bookman said:

03_Aggie said:

Lt. Joe Bookman said:

03_Aggie said:

I don't blame you. I was disappointed at first. The more I thought about it, the more I figured this is much ado about nothing.

Distinguishing between a fast ball and a breaking ball isn't that beneficial. Maybe against a pitcher with only two pitches, but knowing what's coming and hitting what's coming are two completely different things.


Wow.

Then why did the Astros even go through the ordeal of doing it then? If only they had known that it wouldn't make a difference!


I mean if all you have is "why'd they do it if it didn't work?" Then I'll ask, why isn't stealing signs illegal if it creates such an advantage?

The way the Astros did... is illegal.


No, it absolutely wasn't. Perhaps you need to be educated on what a "rule" is.
Flexbone
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DannyDuberstein said:

coconutED said:

Quote:

I think the best analogy for the Astros scandal is paying players in college football. Everyone does it. When a team gets caught, they get punished. It's perfectly fine to make fun of a team when they get caught, but don't act like your team doesn't do it to. They are all doing it at some level.
And to continue the analogy, there are hardly ever any real consequences, even when caught, so the behavior will continue...to the point where everybody has to do it, otherwise they won't be competitive.



This poster has definitely worked himself up to the Kubler-Ross bargaining stage. They now HAD to do it just to keep up with the rest of baseball


Pretty sure the road stats prove they didn't have to do jack ****, genius.

Keep going. You're really showing people.
Alta
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AG
Lifelong Astros fan here and I agree. The more the Astros and others talk about this the more ridiculous it becomes. They cheated because they thought it gave them an advantage. That's the only reason people cheat. Now it's all excuses as to why it didn't matter, everybody else was doing it, blah, blah, blah. All those responses are just excuses but show no real remorse.

Outside of some Astros and their fans virtually everybody believes their Championship is tainted. They cheated. Maybe they would have won it all or maybe not. Nobody knows. Sucks as a fan but it is what is it. Wish the Astros and certain people could lose the loser mentality and stop trying to justify it.
Aggies2009
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AG
Flexbone said:

DannyDuberstein said:

coconutED said:

Quote:

I think the best analogy for the Astros scandal is paying players in college football. Everyone does it. When a team gets caught, they get punished. It's perfectly fine to make fun of a team when they get caught, but don't act like your team doesn't do it to. They are all doing it at some level.
And to continue the analogy, there are hardly ever any real consequences, even when caught, so the behavior will continue...to the point where everybody has to do it, otherwise they won't be competitive.



This poster has definitely worked himself up to the Kubler-Ross bargaining stage. They now HAD to do it just to keep up with the rest of baseball


Pretty sure the road stats prove they didn't have to do jack ****, genius.

Keep going. You're really showing people.


Didn't it come out that they cheated on the road?
DannyDuberstein
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AG
Yes, but shhhh. The defense on this one is that the WSJ and ESPN were wrong.
Flexbone
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DannyDuberstein said:

Yes, but shhhh. The defense on this one is that the WSJ and ESPN were wrong.


They had cameras in the outfield on the toad, too? Really?

You're such a sad individual.
03_Aggie
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Aggies2009 said:

Flexbone said:

DannyDuberstein said:

coconutED said:

Quote:

I think the best analogy for the Astros scandal is paying players in college football. Everyone does it. When a team gets caught, they get punished. It's perfectly fine to make fun of a team when they get caught, but don't act like your team doesn't do it to. They are all doing it at some level.
And to continue the analogy, there are hardly ever any real consequences, even when caught, so the behavior will continue...to the point where everybody has to do it, otherwise they won't be competitive.



This poster has definitely worked himself up to the Kubler-Ross bargaining stage. They now HAD to do it just to keep up with the rest of baseball


Pretty sure the road stats prove they didn't have to do jack ****, genius.

Keep going. You're really showing people.


Didn't it come out that they cheated on the road?


No. But shhh, some people can't read.
94chem
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DannyDuberstein said:

03_Aggie said:

Distinguishing between a fast ball and a breaking ball isn't that beneficial


You might want to keep this kind of baseball genius to yourself. All sorts of guys developing secondary pitches (and trying to ID them in advance) for no reason. No one needs to worry about tipping pitches or anything anymore. They just never knew it


Exactly. The fact that somebody could have a take like that should tell you to quit wasting your time. You might as well try to teach linear algebra to a tabby cat. Do you actually think you can prove a point or win an argument? You are arguing with someone who is either willfully ignorant or blissfully ignorant. Why?
Flexbone
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Alta said:

Lifelong Astros fan here and I agree. The more the Astros and others talk about this the more ridiculous it becomes. They cheated because they thought it gave them an advantage. That's the only reason people cheat. Now it's all excuses as to why it didn't matter, everybody else was doing it, blah, blah, blah. All those responses are just excuses but show no real remorse.

Outside of some Astros and their fans virtually everybody believes their Championship is tainted. They cheated. Maybe they would have won it all or maybe not. Nobody knows. Sucks as a fan but it is what is it. Wish the Astros and certain people could lose the loser mentality and stop trying to justify it.


Except people that actually have a clue. Hall of gamers, current players, etc. You're a complete moron if you think pro sports are this pure, sacred thing where everyone is following the rules. If that were true, then yes, I'd believe the Astros title was tainted. But they arent, and it isn't.

It's pretty evident who the people are on this thread that can't separate the reality of this stuff.
SquirrellyDan
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AG
wonder what the Red Sox penalty will be. As repeat offenders they should be punished more. Will their 2018 title be stripped?
Quincey P. Morris
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SquirrellyDan said:

wonder what the Red Sox penalty will be. As repeat offenders they should be punished more. Will their 2018 title be stripped?


I don't see MLB opening that door. I do think Cora will be lucky if a 5 year ban is all he gets. His should probably be lifetime. As a Rangers fan, if they don't get, at a minimum, the same team punishment as they Astros all hell will and should break loose.
MaxPower
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I find it odd in multiple interviews with Manfred the last two days that no one has brought up the repeat offender question.
03_Aggie
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94chem said:

DannyDuberstein said:

03_Aggie said:

Distinguishing between a fast ball and a breaking ball isn't that beneficial


You might want to keep this kind of baseball genius to yourself. All sorts of guys developing secondary pitches (and trying to ID them in advance) for no reason. No one needs to worry about tipping pitches or anything anymore. They just never knew it


Exactly. The fact that somebody could have a take like that should tell you to quit wasting your time. You might as well try to teach linear algebra to a tabby cat. Do you actually think you can prove a point or win an argument? You are arguing with someone who is either willfully ignorant or blissfully ignorant. Why?


Another 94chem hot-take.
03_Aggie
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SquirrellyDan said:

wonder what the Red Sox penalty will be. As repeat offenders they should be punished more. Will their 2018 title be stripped?


Oh man, three straight pennants for Houston? That'd really cause some of the "national" baseball people to head for a cliff.
94chem
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03_Aggie said:

94chem said:

DannyDuberstein said:

03_Aggie said:

Distinguishing between a fast ball and a breaking ball isn't that beneficial


You might want to keep this kind of baseball genius to yourself. All sorts of guys developing secondary pitches (and trying to ID them in advance) for no reason. No one needs to worry about tipping pitches or anything anymore. They just never knew it


Exactly. The fact that somebody could have a take like that should tell you to quit wasting your time. You might as well try to teach linear algebra to a tabby cat. Do you actually think you can prove a point or win an argument? You are arguing with someone who is either willfully ignorant or blissfully ignorant. Why?


Another 94chem hot-take.


"Distinguishing between a fast ball and a breaking ball isn't that beneficial."

I'll be making a sandwich.
Aggies2009
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AG
Flexbone said:

Alta said:

Lifelong Astros fan here and I agree. The more the Astros and others talk about this the more ridiculous it becomes. They cheated because they thought it gave them an advantage. That's the only reason people cheat. Now it's all excuses as to why it didn't matter, everybody else was doing it, blah, blah, blah. All those responses are just excuses but show no real remorse.

Outside of some Astros and their fans virtually everybody believes their Championship is tainted. They cheated. Maybe they would have won it all or maybe not. Nobody knows. Sucks as a fan but it is what is it. Wish the Astros and certain people could lose the loser mentality and stop trying to justify it.


Except people that actually have a clue. Hall of gamers, current players, etc. You're a complete moron if you think pro sports are this pure, sacred thing where everyone is following the rules. If that were true, then yes, I'd believe the Astros title was tainted. But they arent, and it isn't.

It's pretty evident who the people are on this thread that can't separate the reality of this stuff.


So the defense ultimately goes back to "Other have done it so it's okay when we do it"... If that's your point of view, then so be it. We can agree to disagree.
Aggies2009
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AG
Ranger #007 said:

SquirrellyDan said:

wonder what the Red Sox penalty will be. As repeat offenders they should be punished more. Will their 2018 title be stripped?


I don't see MLB opening that door. I do think Cora will be lucky if a 5 year ban is all he gets. His should probably be lifetime. As a Rangers fan, if they don't get, at a minimum, the same team punishment as they Astros all hell will and should break loose.


That's happening anyway. Anything outside of this board and Houston subreddits want heads to roll and are getting more and more pissed as the days go by.
03_Aggie
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Yet nothing. Almost 24hrs since I made the post and nothing from all these supposed baseball geniuses to back up their superior take.

Oh wait, there's "why'd they do it if it didn't help." Superior intellect there.
MaxPower
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The nuance is you're assuming the stealing was successful all the time. When you're wrong you drastically decrease your chances of a positive outcome by swinging at what you have concluded is a fastball but turns out to be a breaking ball (or being unable to swing at a strike and being forced to take the pitch). There's also the possibility of counter intelligence, which would be fascinating in and of itself. If a team knew or suspected you were stealing signs they could set you up for a critical point in the game to get an out.

So I'd say the counter argument to Bryant's argument that it's worse than roids is simply this.....the Astros didn't actually know the pitch every time whereas McGwire and Sosa sure were juiced for every pitch during the HR race.
 
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