Astros = CHEATERS

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investorAg83
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Honest question and not meant to rile anyone up:

1) Using video and other technology to record at bats and learn/steal signs during the game. Then have players on field attempt to relay that info to batters once they're deciphered later in the game
2) Watching a live feed and relaying the sign mid pitch from the dugout (via banging, buzzers, whatever)

Both are illegal per a memo from MLB in 2001 (I'm positive that 2 is...1 might be but in my mind it is).

Is the offense the same?
AustinAg2K
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Ranger #007 said:

I don't think it was rampant in the way the Astros and a few others were doing it. It's not the mere act of stealing signs that's the issue. It's the method.
Since MLB added video replay rooms to all the stadiums for instant replay, players across the league have realized they can just go in there and watch and pick up the signs. Its why MLB put a delay into the video feed, and started requiring an MLB official in the room last year. It sounds like 2017 might have been the height of it all, because before the Red Sox Apple watch incident there was no enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised if in 2017, every team in baseball had someone watching the game, deciphering signs, and relaying to a runner on 2nd in some manner. I think the Astros were a step ahead in figuring out how to let the batter know the pitch without a runner on. There are a of stories from 2017/2018 about teams decoding signs. None of them are really breaking news, X team is cheating the league. They just treat it like the next evolution of sign stealing. Even after the 2019 WS, the stories don't act like it's that big a deal. It's only been for the past 60 days or so that it has been put on the same level as steroid or the Black Sox.
AustinAg2K
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investorAg83 said:

Honest question and not meant to rile anyone up:

1) Using video and other technology to record at bats and learn/steal signs during the game. Then have players on field attempt to relay that info to batters once they're deciphered later in the game
2) Watching a live feed and relaying the sign mid pitch from the dugout (via banging, buzzers, whatever)

Both are illegal per a memo from MLB in 2001 (I'm positive that 2 is...1 might be but in my mind it is).

Is the offense the same?
To me they are the same. I see it like if you stole an answer key to a test and memorized the answers vs have your buddy text you the answers.

I do think if before the game you review the video and decode the signs, and the opposing team doesn't change anything, then that's not cheating, but if you are doing it real time, it is, regardless of how you relay that information to the batter.
SquirrellyDan
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investorAg83 said:

Honest question and not meant to rile anyone up:

1) Using video and other technology to record at bats and learn/steal signs during the game. Then have players on field attempt to relay that info to batters once they're deciphered later in the game
2) Watching a live feed and relaying the sign mid pitch from the dugout (via banging, buzzers, whatever)

Both are illegal per a memo from MLB in 2001 (I'm positive that 2 is...1 might be but in my mind it is).

Is the offense the same?
I think it's obvious number 2 is more egregious. Both are cheating, one is a better form of it....which falls in line with baseball throughout its history.

Scuffing a ball began to be noticed, so move on to vaseline or some other agent. Steal signs from second. Steal signs using fans in the outfield. Steal signs and relay to a first base coach who relays to the batter. Steal signs using Apple Watches. Steal signs using your home television network. Steal signs using a camera in the outfield.

I never said the Astros didn't cheat. I just think it's silly to think they were the only ones doing it because they're the only ones who were investigated because Fiers forced the MLB's hand. The outrage is a joke.
Aggies2009
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South Platte said:

SquirrellyDan said:

AboutTreeFiddy said:

SquirrellyDan said:

AboutTreeFiddy said:

SquirrellyDan said:

We occupy everyone's mind. Boo away. Nothing stings like indifference.
How many times have you posted in this thread? Actions speak louder than words. It's also funny how you'e considering the Asterisks to be the victims here. As if cheating was some noble task and now the world is out to get you. Classic.
LOL. I'm saying people are clearly upset....that's not indifference. Also, if we're 'victims' after winning a WS and an AL pennant, I'll take it. Try again.
See, that's what I'm talking about. You live in some insane fantasy world where you're just indifferent while others are upset (LOL), where the Astros did some noble thing to cheat their way to a title (though given your defense of them, I bet you DO believe that cheating was a good thing), and where the Astros are poor helpless victims because other fans have the audacity to boo and criticize said cheating.

Whatever floats your boat, bud. I guess you've always got a World Series t-shirt and can plug your ears when everyone else rightly downplays it because it took cheating to do so. But given the futility of Houston sports historically, I don't blame you for taking whatever you can get.
You don't read very well. Again, I'm not saying I'm indifferent. I'm saying all the haters definitely AREN'T indifferent....I also said the booing doesn't bother me at all and that indifference would be worse (kind of like the indifference to Arlington cheating with steroids...doesn't really matter because they never won anything).
SquirrellyDan, I have to hand it to you. You aren't taking **** from anybody on this. You will defend them to your grave, sneaking in pops vs. Texas along the way.

You and the rest of the fanbase should embrace the fact that for the first time in the city's history, you have a pro sports franchise is actually relevant. Winning doesn't accomplish that. All of a sudden it's a team with national visibility. Every team should be so lucky, and most franchises have little control of getting to that status. Bad publicity or good publicity, doesn't matter how you get there. This window should be seized by the organization and try to stay there as long as you can. Be the team everybody hates. Be the Raiders of the MLB . . . the sport really needs a villain.
Which is funny because a lot of the Astros fans here keep directing their anger at the Rangers when it's all of Major League Baseball who criticize them, not just fans from one team. Star players across the league are doing so. I guess they feel like they can get under the skin of people by insulting another team, even if said people don't care? Or they can delude themselves into thinking it's okay? They're going to every length to do that already, and now are cheering injuries (and trying to justify it too).

Regarding your second paragraph, people WERE on board. Altuve's story was loved by everyone and everyone agreed that Game 5 was the best game they'd ever seen. Now that it's all a sham, it's all lost its luster as I said earlier. Fans are booing Altuve who was once a league-wide favorite. And now that everyone knows that the game was a farce, not some awesome, fair competition, people write it and the championship off.

Fat Bib Fortuna
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I've never been angry at rangers fans, they are an enormous source of laughter.
Aggies2009
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Ah N/M
Know Your Enemy
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On his 2017 World Series start vs Astros, Kershaw threw 51 sliders/ curveballs. The Astros had 0 swing and miss on those pitches
SquirrellyDan
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Junkhead said:

On his 2017 World Series start vs Astros, Kershaw threw 51 sliders/ curveballs. The Astros had 0 swing and miss on those pitches
And to think, as good as that 2017 lineup was, we hit much better in 2019. Thanks for pointing out how awesome the Astros lineup has been, I agree.
tjack16
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Junkhead said:

On his 2017 World Series start vs Astros, Kershaw threw 51 sliders/ curveballs. The Astros had 0 swing and miss on those pitches
well... how many were for strikes? Most good MLB hitters know how to lay off breaking balls in the dirt.

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.
lil99chris
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Which start....game 1 or game 5? Or how about his relief appearance in game 7?
MaxPower
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Or he was throwing so much off speed junk they just sat on it.....
Deluxe
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Junkhead said:

On his 2017 World Series start vs Astros, Kershaw threw 51 sliders/ curveballs. The Astros had 0 swing and miss on those pitches


Assume you're talking about the game 5 start? How many of those sliders/curve balls were swung at vs how many were takes? How many were strikes/balls? How many could be defined as "good takes" (ie it was executed well and showed in the zone but the hitter took it)? Is it possible the Astros specifically strategized to lay off the off speed stuff and try to jump on fastballs in game 5?
lil99chris
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Game 5 for Kershaw....

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/HOU/HOU201710290.shtml

4 2/3 innings
94 pitches (57 strikes)
4 hits
3 walks
6 runs
agproducer
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Deluxe said:

Junkhead said:

On his 2017 World Series start vs Astros, Kershaw threw 51 sliders/ curveballs. The Astros had 0 swing and miss on those pitches


Assume you're talking about the game 5 start? How many of those sliders/curve balls were swung at vs how many were takes? How many were strikes/balls? How many could be defined as "good takes" (ie it was executed well and showed in the zone but the hitter took it)? Is it possible the Astros specifically strategized to lay off the off speed stuff and try to jump on fastballs in game 5?
This was my thought as well. They went in with the game plan to layoff the breaking stuff.

I think the three walks in 4 2/3 speaks volumes. I'd be interested in seeing how many of those swings were with two strikes.
diehard03
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Quote:

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.

That's the problem with cheating: You no longer get the default position of the plausibility of an alternative scenario.

You just have to wear it.
SquirrellyDan
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.

That's the problem with cheating: You no longer get the default position of the plausibility of an alternative scenario.

You just have to wear it.
That's true, I wear my all gold World Series Champion hat all the time.
Aggies2009
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tjholley16 said:

Junkhead said:

On his 2017 World Series start vs Astros, Kershaw threw 51 sliders/ curveballs. The Astros had 0 swing and miss on those pitches
well... how many were for strikes? Most good MLB hitters know how to lay off breaking balls in the dirt.

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.


It was by far his worst game that year.



Someone did several simulations based on his performance that year and it was something like a 1 in 128,000 chance for him to get 0 swinging strikes on 51 offspeed pitches.

This, of course, doesn't take into account all the things you mentioned. Would be interested in pitch f/x data from that game.

And to be fair both teams had issues with gripping the balls that game if memory serves.
Aggies2009
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.

That's the problem with cheating: You no longer get the default position of the plausibility of an alternative scenario.

You just have to wear it.


Trust me. They do. So long as they got a t-shirt and hat, they're okay with lying, cheating, and spousal abuse. Rangers players in the 90s did steroids so it's all okay.
SquirrellyDan
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Aggies2009 said:

diehard03 said:

Quote:

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.

That's the problem with cheating: You no longer get the default position of the plausibility of an alternative scenario.

You just have to wear it.


Trust me. They do. So long as they got a t-shirt and hat, they're okay with lying, cheating, and spousal abuse. Rangers players in the 90s did steroids so it's all okay.
Everyone cheats in baseball, not everyone beats their spouse. I never liked the Osuna signing, not that he was on the 2017 team anyways.

I won't apologize for the Astros being caught or doing it better than other teams. How many championships did the steroids help the Rangers win?
Fat Bib Fortuna
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Aggies2009 said:




It was by far his worst game that year.



But par for the course for post-season Kershaw. He's 10-11 with a 4.55 ERA in the post-season for his career compared to 169-74 with a 2.44 ERA in the postseason.

Aggies2009
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MuckRaker96 said:

Aggies2009 said:




It was by far his worst game that year.



But par for the course for post-season Kershaw. He's 10-11 with a 4.55 ERA in the post-season for his career compared to 169-74 with a 2.44 ERA in the postseason.


I meant in terms of getting swings and misses on his off-speed pitches, not "worst game" in general. I haven't looked at all of his starts that year. It wasn't "par for the course", getting only 1 swing and a miss.

It's definitely possible that he just had a bad day that day. And even the astronomically low chance of getting only 1 swing and miss (he actually got 1 in the first inning- a K of Altuve, not 0 as the talking head claimed) COULD have happened, especially with the supposedly slick balls. It's just a very low probability.
cc10106
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Kershaw expressed regret about LA not changing their signs during Game 5 rather than blaming cheating. He knew they screwed up, and it's reasonable to assume Houston was reading and relaying pitches to the batters without tech considering how often they got on base. Not to mention how effing loud it was in there.

While honorable, a guy known for choking in the playoffs not making excuses for his performance when he could have easily lied to promote the ongoing narrative speaks volumes.
Marvin
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Aggies2009 said:

diehard03 said:

Quote:

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.

That's the problem with cheating: You no longer get the default position of the plausibility of an alternative scenario.

You just have to wear it.


Trust me. They do. So long as they got a t-shirt and hat, they're okay with lying, cheating, and spousal abuse. Rangers players in the 90s did steroids so it's all okay.

I know you guys are having fun with this cheating scandal but stop with the wide paintbrush- "they" is a big word when referencing to one or two internet posters.

Also be very careful about the domestic violence comments. Rangers have some skeletons in that same closet.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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You mean like that Julio Franco was 86 years old the last year he played for the Rangers?
KT 90
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SquirrellyDan said:

Aggies2009 said:

diehard03 said:

Quote:

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.

That's the problem with cheating: You no longer get the default position of the plausibility of an alternative scenario.

You just have to wear it.


Trust me. They do. So long as they got a t-shirt and hat, they're okay with lying, cheating, and spousal abuse. Rangers players in the 90s did steroids so it's all okay.
Everyone cheats in baseball, not everyone beats their spouse. I never liked the Osuna signing, not that he was on the 2017 team anyways.

I won't apologize for the Astros being caught or doing it better than other teams. How many championships did the steroids help the Rangers win?

Now Astro fan is going with the steroids shtick? What in the name of Jeff Bagwell are you talking about? Oh, and Ken Caminiti says hi also.

Quincey P. Morris
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SquirrellyDan said:

Aggies2009 said:

diehard03 said:

Quote:

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.

That's the problem with cheating: You no longer get the default position of the plausibility of an alternative scenario.

You just have to wear it.


Trust me. They do. So long as they got a t-shirt and hat, they're okay with lying, cheating, and spousal abuse. Rangers players in the 90s did steroids so it's all okay.
Everyone cheats in baseball, not everyone beats their spouse. I never liked the Osuna signing, not that he was on the 2017 team anyways.

I won't apologize for the Astros being caught or doing it better than other teams. How many championships did the steroids help the Rangers win?


So now we're continuing with a tired 15 year old story that was proven to actually encompass every team in baseball? You Astros boys are real good at apples and oranges.
Aggies2009
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Marvin said:

Aggies2009 said:

diehard03 said:

Quote:

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.

That's the problem with cheating: You no longer get the default position of the plausibility of an alternative scenario.

You just have to wear it.


Trust me. They do. So long as they got a t-shirt and hat, they're okay with lying, cheating, and spousal abuse. Rangers players in the 90s did steroids so it's all okay.

I know you guys are having fun with this cheating scandal but stop with the wide paintbrush- "they" is a big word when referencing to one or two internet posters.

Also be very careful about the domestic violence comments. Rangers have some skeletons in that same closet.

How plain do I have to make it that I'm not a Rangers fan? Lmao Just because someone has disdain for wife beaters, racists, liars, and cheaters doesn't mean they're automatically the fan of a team you don't like. It means they're a normal person.
Aggies2009
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Looks like Bregman got hit today and despite being a breaking pitch, he looked hurt.

"You hate to see that. It's just a crying shame."

Am I doing it right?
SquirrellyDan
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KT 90 said:

SquirrellyDan said:

Aggies2009 said:

diehard03 said:

Quote:

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.

That's the problem with cheating: You no longer get the default position of the plausibility of an alternative scenario.

You just have to wear it.


Trust me. They do. So long as they got a t-shirt and hat, they're okay with lying, cheating, and spousal abuse. Rangers players in the 90s did steroids so it's all okay.
Everyone cheats in baseball, not everyone beats their spouse. I never liked the Osuna signing, not that he was on the 2017 team anyways.

I won't apologize for the Astros being caught or doing it better than other teams. How many championships did the steroids help the Rangers win?

Now Astro fan is going with the steroids shtick? What in the name of Jeff Bagwell are you talking about? Oh, and Ken Caminiti says hi also.


The 'roids shtick was just to point out the illustrious cheating past of baseball and the pearl-clutching righteous indignation of people just oh so upset about the Astros....how dare they taint baseball's reputation!
SquirrellyDan
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Aggies2009 said:

Marvin said:

Aggies2009 said:

diehard03 said:

Quote:

Im not saying the Astros didn't cheat because I believe the Commissioners report on 2017, but it is possible that Kershaw also just had a bad game considering his postseason track record isn't good.

That's the problem with cheating: You no longer get the default position of the plausibility of an alternative scenario.

You just have to wear it.


Trust me. They do. So long as they got a t-shirt and hat, they're okay with lying, cheating, and spousal abuse. Rangers players in the 90s did steroids so it's all okay.

I know you guys are having fun with this cheating scandal but stop with the wide paintbrush- "they" is a big word when referencing to one or two internet posters.

Also be very careful about the domestic violence comments. Rangers have some skeletons in that same closet.

How plain do I have to make it that I'm not a Rangers fan? Lmao Just because someone has disdain for wife beaters, racists, liars, and cheaters doesn't mean they're automatically the fan of a team you don't like. It means they're a normal person.
You should probably find another sport. Who is your team again?

Actually, you should probably give up watching pro sports in general.
AustinAg2012
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SquirrellyDan said:

diehard03 said:

You just have to wear it.
That's true, I wear my all gold World Series Champion hat all the time.
You and all the turds that starred your post:

SquirrellyDan
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AustinAg2012 said:

SquirrellyDan said:

diehard03 said:

You just have to wear it.
That's true, I wear my all gold World Series Champion hat all the time.
You and all the turds that starred your post:


If so, what does that say about all the people flocking over here to post about a team they don't even care about?


lil99chris
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Aggies2009 said:

Looks like Bregman got hit today and despite being a breaking pitch, he looked hurt.

"You hate to see that. It's just a crying shame."

Am I doing it right?


....yeah, that looks like a great strategy. Hit a batter with two strikes.

diehard03
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Quote:

That's true, I wear my all gold World Series Champion hat all the time.

That's what's awesome about America.

You are free to wear your gold WS champion hat, and everyone is free to judge you accordingly.
 
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