there is an enormous difference between "sources" saying they think a team did something and an actual person saying he knows first hand that a team did something.

It's not a lazy narrative at all, it's actually Astros defenders being so quick to goal-tend that they aren't even reading the narratives they are accusing of being lazy and just assuming they aren't actually fair or critical.

Direct from Stark's article:

"We can't say they wouldn't have dramatically improved their contact rate if they'd never banged on those trash can lids because they did, in fact, bring in more contact-oriented hitters and did, in fact, change their hitting philosophy heading into that season."

and further down

"But does that mean we can definitively say they made that dramatic a change simply because they were stealing signs? We can't. This was Alex Bregman's first full season and Yuli Gurriel's first full season. The Astros also brought in Carlos Beltrn, Brian McCann, Josh Reddick and Nori Aoki that year. All of those players had a track record of making more contact than the players they replaced."



He's making a case with large amounts of statistical data, but also countering it with reasonable explanations that might have made the historical shift a bit more explainable.


But it's easier to shout "LAZY!" like somehow the burden of proof falls on the media to uncover a scandal that... the media already uncovered.

Proposition Joe said:

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It's not a lazy narrative at all, it's actually Astros defenders being so quick to goal-tend that they aren't even reading the narratives they are accusing of being lazy and just assuming they aren't actually fair or critical.

Direct from Stark's article:

"We can't say they wouldn't have dramatically improved their contact rate if they'd never banged on those trash can lids because they did, in fact, bring in more contact-oriented hitters and did, in fact, change their hitting philosophy heading into that season."

and further down

"But does that mean we can definitively say they made that dramatic a change simply because they were stealing signs? We can't. This was Alex Bregman's first full season and Yuli Gurriel's first full season. The Astros also brought in Carlos Beltrn, Brian McCann, Josh Reddick and Nori Aoki that year. All of those players had a track record of making more contact than the players they replaced."



He's making a case with large amounts of statistical data, but also countering it with reasonable explanations that might have made the historical shift a bit more explainable.


But it's easier to shout "LAZY!" like somehow the burden of proof falls on the media to uncover a scandal that... the media already uncovered.

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The problem is we now live in a world where people don't actually read the articles .... they go off of the titles and then run with it. It goes both ways, but these sports sites know most people will only see the title and then run with it. That's how a lot of false narratives get spun. See Facebook and Twitter for examples

Proposition Joe said:

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So we're blaming the sports sites for doing an in-depth dive into the numbers, all the while being fair towards the counterpoints, just because the headline was "Does electronic sign stealing work? The Astros' numbers are eye-popping" ?

That's not a false narrative. That's people who want it all to go away trying to shout it down.

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"The Astros numbers are eye popping" insinuates that because of sign stealing their numbers are eye popping.... when later in the article they say "oh well they also improved their roster so maybe it didn't impact it that much"

It's a lazy headline. Instead "an in depth look at Astros 2017 season post - sign stealing scandal" would be better

Sounds like we're on the same page. Nuanced analysis that looks at multiple variables to substantiate a claim is good. Blanket statements that attempt to substantiate a claim with a single variable to get clicks are lazy.

I don't support lazy narratives and sounds like you don't either.

It actually sounds like you just don't understand thr concept of a headline.

Im against clickbait. This wasnt clickbait. It was a well researched article complete with counterpoints.

You demonstrated your ability think critically in your post and you seem to share my disdain for lazy narratives. We definitely agree that the following is not a lazy narrative (as you said before):

Quote:

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Direct from Stark's article:

"We can't say they wouldn't have dramatically improved their contact rate if they'd never banged on those trash can lids because they did, in fact, bring in more contact-oriented hitters and did, in fact, change their hitting philosophy heading into that season."

and further down

"But does that mean we can definitively say they made that dramatic a change simply because they were stealing signs? We can't. This was Alex Bregman's first full season and Yuli Gurriel's first full season. The Astros also brought in Carlos Beltrn, Brian McCann, Josh Reddick and Nori Aoki that year. All of those players had a track record of making more contact than the players they replaced."

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AustinAg2012 said:

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From an ESPN article: "Hinch apologized in a statement the day of his firing, but Astros players -- given immunity and thus not punished as part of MLB's investigation -- have been reluctant to say they were sorry."

Cheating, arrogant *****es.

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My hope is if/when they do decide to address this, they don't forget how to speak English like steroid user, cork bat user Sammy Sosa.

Wabs said:

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My hope is if/when they do decide to address this, they don't forget how to speak English like steroid user, cork bat user Sammy Sosa.

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...who, never forget, began AND ended his career as a Texas Ranger.

Marvin said:

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Wabs said:

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My hope is if/when they do decide to address this, they don't forget how to speak English like steroid user, cork bat user Sammy Sosa.

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...who, never forget, began AND ended his career as a Texas Ranger.

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Never thought I'd see the day a Houston fan wanted to mention player character in an argument.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28655757/report-astros-front-office-laid-groundwork-codebreaker-sign-stealing-program

All because of an intern

DannyDuberstein said:

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Used at home and on the road. So much for trying to analyze splits. There is no "not cheating" control to compare to

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Yea that is very relevant information.

He's still salty about the cash and draft picks the Cardinals had to give the Astros

Cubs= last true (honest) MLB champs!

the last of the bohemians said:

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Going to be great when the Astros lead the league in offense this year

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Are you willing to put a $100 to charity on that?

Flexbone said:

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lda6339 said:

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First Lawsuit has been filed. Since MLB has an official partnership with DraftKings I wonder if this could actually turn into something, guess we'll wait and see. Any lawyers have an preliminary opinion/comment?

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I'm an attorney, and my comment is that you might be the biggest moron on this board. The Cardinals had employees GO TO JAIL and yet here you are, running your mouth about something that a TON of teams were doing. Just how big of a tool are you?

A CARDINALS fan. What are you, 95 years old?

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Neat deflection!

Astros will be a dumpster fire and wont win the west.

Hinch interviewed by Tom Verducci at SI:

https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/02/07/aj-hinch-houston-astros-sign-stealing

Quote:

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Former big-league pitcher Mike Bolsinger filed a civil lawsuit in Los Angeles Superior Court against the Houston Astros on Monday, accusing the franchise of unfair business practices and negligence, among other charges, stemming from their sign-stealing operation, per Nancy Armour of USA Today.

Bolsinger is said to be seeking "unspecified damages," but not just for his own benefit. Per Armour, Bolsinger wants the Astros to forfeit $31 million in bonuses they received from winning the 2017 World Series, with that money being donated to Los Angeles-based charities for children and used to create a fund for "retired baseball players who need financial assistance."

Bolsinger, 32, accumulated 48 appearances in the majors over the course of the 2014-17 seasons, primarily with the Los Angeles Dodgers. He last pitched in the majors for the Toronto Blue Jays on Aug. 4, 2017 against the Astros. Bolsinger didn't fare well: he faced eight batters and permitted four hits and three walks.

Bolsinger believes that performance cost him any chance at a prolonged big-league career. "I was an older guy. They had younger guys to call up," he told Armour. "Let's say that (Astros game) doesn't happen I probably don't get sent down. But at that point, they probably lost faith in me and were over it."

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lda6339 said:

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Flexbone said:

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lda6339 said:

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First Lawsuit has been filed. Since MLB has an official partnership with DraftKings I wonder if this could actually turn into something, guess we'll wait and see. Any lawyers have an preliminary opinion/comment?

---

I'm an attorney, and my comment is that you might be the biggest moron on this board. The Cardinals had employees GO TO JAIL and yet here you are, running your mouth about something that a TON of teams were doing. Just how big of a tool are you?

A CARDINALS fan. What are you, 95 years old?

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Neat deflection!

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I've never seen anything stranger than this weird guy hanging out on every Astros thread, bitter because "his Cardinals" aren't good at baseball.

. . . said:

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Quote:

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Former big-league pitcher Mike Bolsinger filed a civil lawsuit in Los Angeles Superior Court against the Houston Astros on Monday, accusing the franchise of unfair business practices and negligence, among other charges, stemming from their sign-stealing operation, per Nancy Armour of USA Today.

Bolsinger is said to be seeking "unspecified damages," but not just for his own benefit. Per Armour, Bolsinger wants the Astros to forfeit $31 million in bonuses they received from winning the 2017 World Series, with that money being donated to Los Angeles-based charities for children and used to create a fund for "retired baseball players who need financial assistance."

Bolsinger, 32, accumulated 48 appearances in the majors over the course of the 2014-17 seasons, primarily with the Los Angeles Dodgers. He last pitched in the majors for the Toronto Blue Jays on Aug. 4, 2017 against the Astros. Bolsinger didn't fare well: he faced eight batters and permitted four hits and three walks.

Bolsinger believes that performance cost him any chance at a prolonged big-league career. "I was an older guy. They had younger guys to call up," he told Armour. "Let's say that (Astros game) doesn't happen I probably don't get sent down. But at that point, they probably lost faith in me and were over it."

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I'm curious how he's going to explain his 6.83 ERA in 2016 or his 5.48 ERA against teams other than the Astros in 2017.

I don't think the courts are going to want to set a precedent that any athlete who thinks their career was deterred by another athlete who broke the rules is entitled to damages. That sounds like a can of worms.

While we are at it, allow me to stir the pot more by reminding folks that the Astros also stole the Roughneck's slogan for 2020.