Finally caught with the show. Can't name more than like 5 people and they just killed half of them. Tough to follow but seems really well done

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I dont understand why on earth you even hate the Freys, they were wronged.

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They were wronged but their sin is far far greater.

The first thing is they agreed to make peace for a new wedding. Breaking this vow in and of itself is as bad as rob stark's betrayal. But then they followed it up by breaking the terms of hospitality. This may not sound like much, but GRRM makes it clear that it's virtually unprecedented, and why cat stark feels safe once they eat. Then he answers with outright murder.

To act like this was a mere tit for tat isn't intellectually honest.

I do like that the story isn't all happy ending. And frankly, I'd be ok if the Damn others just wipe out the whole world, it's still a good story. But the frey's actions go beyond mere tit for tat and political maneuvering, GRRM makes this clear.

can you obvious book readers arguing about **** you all think we are "supposed to know" because it may have been glossed over in passing by characters in a previous season, therefore you feel like you can just talk about everything in the land of Westeros including your opinions of all the houses, kings, traditions, lands, castles, etc...please GET THE **** OFF THIS THREAD.

Good god the last page is full of a few book readers who have to be typing with one hand arguing with each other. Go do it on the spoilers thread. God forbid us non-readers can watch without getting history lessons about the land and the characters by obvious book readers while they cloak it in "well you don't remember that 5 word sentence x said to y in season 1?"

It's so freaking obvious who the readers are that will reference a past season as to why we may "know" something and who the non-readers are who reference it.

Just GTFO. Kindly, of course. This is the non-spoilers thread. Having a bunch of book-reading dbags argue with each other is not the point of this thread.

[This message has been edited by Bunk Moreland (edited 6/4/2013 10:02p).]

lol...this thread is a little watered down, so to speak.

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I did the opposite of what you want to do. I watched the first episode and then realized I wanted to read the books. I didn't want the show to spoil the books for me. Sounds like you don't want the books to spoil the show.

Your way will get tricky with books 4 and 5, as they are not chronological.

That said... once you get this far in the books, you probably won't want to quit.

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If you didn't want to spoil season 4, then you'd be best off just avoiding book 3 altogether since there's not really a cut and dry division. For instance, Dany's part in episode 9 is toward the end of the book.

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At this point if you are going to start the books I would recommend reading them all. The show and the books are just combining too much into the future books and there are more and more changes. This season was primarily about the first half of Book 3 but it also had parts of Books 4 and 5. There are also just more and more characters that have to be combined.

You can also get away with using the Tower of the Hand summaries for the first book and less so the second. There are a few chapters that are not in the show that are worth reading though for certain that deal with flashbacks and prophecies which the show really has skipped for the most part. Only a couple of things really in Book 1 but quite a few in Books 2 and 3 that you really will want to read.

Before reading the books I also recommend printing off a map of Westeros and referencing the Houses that are listed in the back of the book. The world is much, much bigger and more detailed.

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Thanks guys! I think what I'll do is go ahead and purchase and read this
http://www.amazon.com/Game-Thrones-Song-Fire-Book/dp/0553386794/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=TYG1A4XSL4XZ&coliid=I13MK78DX4K8BO & this http://www.amazon.com/Clash-Kings-HBO-Tie-Edition/dp/0345535421/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=TYG1A4XSL4XZ&coliid=I27W0MF8JVN7DK

From there I guess I can decide if I want to move ahead and read the rest or wait for season 4 on HBO to air. I just had no idea what was covered in each book (as far as the TV seasons go) and wanted to make sure I didn't unintentionally read any spoliers if I didn't want to.

What is the point of this thread, Bunk?

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can you obvious book readers arguing about **** you all think we are "supposed to know" because it may have been glossed over in passing by characters in a previous season, therefore you feel like you can just talk about everything in the land of Westeros including your opinions of all the houses, kings, traditions, lands, castles, etc...please GET THE **** OFF THIS THREAD.

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No.

Feel free to be more butthurt, if that is possible.

Deeeerrrrrr!!!! I reAd books!?!? I watch better???!&&"

Internet fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was grossly mistaken by following this thread. I enjoy intelligent debate about works of literature that I have read and enjoyed. I thought that since I have only read and enjoyed the first 2 books that I would get discussion that added to the entertainment of the show. Nope. All that I have found are egotistic theoretics that can't accept that some people have different interpretations of what is presented on screen.

Come on man!

The joy of literature is the intelligent banter about the story and the interpretation of the inherent ambiguity of language.

Oh wait, Texags.

I though I graduated with smart, respectable people. Apparently, they want to be Internet stars.

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Robb dishonored himself (sins of the father) and he died for it.

You dont accidentally fall in love, in his head he considered her and thats something an honorable man doesnt succumb to. Did he not screw Talisa before marriage? Did he not cheat on his betrothed?

In our culture we say "oh its just sex." But if you cheat on your fiance and show up at her father's house. He might be a bit pissed.

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Yea and pull out the shot gun and restore his honor!

Bunk nailed it.

I really don't know why the people who have read the books can't just stay off this thread altogether. If we have theories that are completely wrong, who cares? If we're completely wrong in interpreting something, who cares? Let us be wrong and have other people point out why we're wrong based on the SHOW, or if we're all wrong, let us all be wrong and figure out why together based on later episodes of the SHOW.

I'm fascinated by those who have an urge to post on this thread after reading the books. I can only guess that they must be huge, huge nerds. It is just pathetic.

My suggestion for those that are sick of it would be to email the mods at moderator@texags.com and to vote against the posts. The mods will warn the offending posters and ban them if they don't stop.

Bunk

This is a discussion thread, and the discussion right now has ZERO to do with the books and all to do with primogeniture as the prevailing political construct in Westeros. And considering 98% of the fccking SHOW is about geopolitics one would think there would be room for such discussion. But nooooooooooooo...

Im sorry complex concepts make some of your heads hurt. Buy some aspirin and send your receipt to tasboch@gmail.com and I will gladly reimburse you.

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I'm fascinated by those who have an urge to post on this thread after reading the books. I can only guess that they must be huge, huge nerds. It is just pathetic.

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You've posted on this thread multiple times, and are a reader.

I agree with Bunk.

98% of the crap on the previous page makes no sense to me. There's too much arguing about trivial details that don't matter to us non-readers. Speculating about this show is damn near impossible because someone who actually knows the answer chimes in with some cryptic comment and then some weird argument ensues between the readers that most of us non-readers don't even understand.

Can you imagine if Breaking Bad was based on a novel? That thread on the 1st half of season 5 which has over 2200 posts already would look veeeeeeery different. It's currently filled almost exclusively with people trying to predict the next episode, debating what'll happen next, and presenting their case as to why. In fact, the speculation may even be better than the show itself. I'd love to be able to do that here (as it's intended), but we can't because the readers hijack the discussion and start arguing with each other about "geopolitics" that is barely even mentioned in the actual show.

What many of the readers don't understand is that although they may not be explicitly spoiling the plot, they are spoiling the experience.

That was why watching LOST is real time was so excellent. Those threads were works of art.

I'm currently re-watching Lost with my roommate who's never seen it before. I was trying to get across to him how the threads and theorizing that went on between episodes was not only fun, but almost vital to experiencing Lost. But I don't think you can explain it unless you were a part of it.

But I do agree, this thread would be a lot better if us non-readers were allowed to theorize to our heart's content without some of the readers coming in and pointing things out that we may have missed in order to keep us on the "right track". Sometimes being on the wrong track is half the fun.

What's stopping you all from theorizing now? I've seen plenty do it on this thread without much if any reader input.

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but we can't because the readers hijack the discussion and start arguing with each other about "geopolitics" that is barely even mentioned in the actual show.

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Really? Really?!?!?!

Every conflict, every betrayal, every marriage, every war, and even friendships in the show play a pivotal role in the plot. What fccking show are you watching?! Downtown Abbey?!?!

Then I theorize that Bran, at some point in the series, will mind-control one of the dragons and **** some **** up.

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I really don't know why the people who have read the books can't just stay off this thread altogether. If we have theories that are completely wrong, who cares? If we're completely wrong in interpreting something, who cares? Let us be wrong and have other people point out why we're wrong based on the SHOW, or if we're all wrong, let us all be wrong and figure out why together based on later episodes of the SHOW.

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No one that I've seen is going around debunking theories with facts from the books. The only time I have seen people correct people's theories is with stuff that has already been shown on the TV show, and that is mostly done by non-readers. Half the fun of reading this thread from a someone who has read the books perspective is reading people's theories. Correcting those theories would take the fun out of things.

Let the salt continue.

Bunk +infinity

None of the history, house "rankings", connections, etc. were ever explained in the show, so it has no business being presented and discussed here. Those who continue to argue otherwise are just d***s who get off on knowing what we don't. Also, the "why don't you cry about it" response stopped being fresh in about 8th grade.

Back to show, I didn't see it until Monday night and am still trying to process. I felt doubly gut-punched because the massacre occurred right before, and instead of, the joyful and sweet reunion between Arya and her family. I was thinking something good was finally going to happen to the poor kid and she would come sprinting through the door. Instead, her family gets brutally murdered just feet away and before she gets to see them. Talk about an emotional 180.

I'm also of the theory that Jon hauled a$$ because he wanted to draw the wildings away from Bran and Rickon once he recognized the wolves.

Some of the other things that transpired make me wonder. If Bolton and Tywin are in cahoots and communicating, and it is Bolton's son torturing Theon, wouldn't Tywin know that Bran and Rickon are alive and thus render the Sansa marriage to attach the North meaningless?

Wouldn't he also know that Jamie is free and send his best scouts out to fund him and give him safe escort the rest of the way home?

And while Walder Frey had a right to be pissed about Robb's breaking the marriage promise, wasn't it pointed out that he broke his vows as a banner man when he didn't heed the call at the beginning of the war? And out of spite because none of the others would marry to his daughters or attend his weddings? And he crapped on the bread and salt protection that book readers so kindly explained the significance. I don't see how anyone could align with Frey and excuse him for his acts based on Robb's dumb move.

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wasn't it pointed out that he broke his vows as a banner man when he didn't heed the call at the beginning of the war?

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At the time the deal was struck, Jaime Lannister and half the Lannister forces were in the Riverlands. So Robb left Freys men at the Twins to make sure he didnt lose the Twins. If he lost that keep, he would be cut off to the North.


But unless you are saying the Frey's didnt come to the aid of the Tullys initial, your original question would be correct. But if you swear to the crown and your neighbor, either way they would break a vow. But once again it shows you the lack of prowess the Tullys truly have....because they are not a great house, at least not compared to the top 7.

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If Bolton and Tywin are in cahoots and communicating, and it is Bolton's son torturing Theon, wouldn't Tywin know that Bran and Rickon are alive

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Only if Theon told them, and I don't see why he would.

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Only if Theon told them, and I don't see why he would.

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Theon already told him. Remember when they escaped and then he confessed it as the were breaking back in, right before he was re-tied to the cross thing.

I guess it's more about what the torturer is sharing with whoever is pulling the strings. He knows, but I don't think it's shown us anything regarding who he is reporting to, or what he is telling them.

It's been a few episodes since anyone has talked about it, but Tywin last said Tyrion had to marry Sansa b/c she was in line to inherit Winterfell, b/c the brothers are all dead.

I just had an epiphany for you who hate the book spoiler people: patience...

At the rate GRRM is writing, there is no way he will finish the last 2 books of the series before HBO's 7 year planned GOT run is complete. Since he has already shared the ending with the show runners, that means that at some point, the show will actually outpace and pass up the source material.

That means that all of these book readers will essentially have the potential to have the precious books "spoiled" by show watchers.

So, patience, show only watchers...your time is coming.

Lots of reader hate. I get it to an extent but I was a show watcher that converted to being a reader because the story was so interesting. I really appreciated readers that could explain what was going on in a non spoiler way because they simply can't take all the time needed in the show to do so.

It is also clear that the show creators want you to understand the geopolitics and back story. Virtually every episode has a reference to the past or to alliances. Every episode starts with the map and it changes week to week to help people follow what is going on. The heart of the show is understanding the geography, politics, and Houses.

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quote:wasn't it pointed out that he broke his vows as a banner man when he didn't heed the call at the beginning of the war?

At the time the deal was struck, Jaime Lannister and half the Lannister forces were in the Riverlands. So Robb left Freys men at the Twins to make sure he didnt lose the Twins. If he lost that keep, he would be cut off to the North.

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This is actually incorrect. Frey kept 400 men at the Twins and sent 4,000 with Robb and they fought with him at the Whispering Wood and in the Westerlands. They only left when Robb broke his vow. It isn't mentioned in the show either way as to what happens with his troops though.

There is a question of legitimacy a "lost son" has to overcome.

Just because some kid, or years later some man, says "I am heir to Winterfell" it doesnt make it so. Officially Sansa is the heir, which is why the Tyrells wanted her as well.

So I'm thinking back on the scene at the windmill where the wildlings catch the old man w/ the horse.

In a previous scene, the wildling band is running from a small wall toward the old man's hut. he rides away. Next, he is being stopped at the windmill by wildlings on foot...and Jon and Ygritte and redbeard and birdman are there too (I assume they followed on horse?)

So, did the wildlings leave some men in the area of the windmill (they passed it in the previous episode - if it is the same one)? Do we believe they just took his horses and chased him down? How many wildlings are there south of the wall in the raiding party? There were only a handful when Jon and those wolves started killing them all.

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Just because some kid, or years later some man, says "I am heir to Winterfell" it doesnt make it so

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This is why Theon is still important

redline, I don't think they've specifically shown how many are north of the wall.

I assumed they just chased him down with his own horses... maybe set up an ambush. I think something to note that isn't shown, is that the windmill/tower is pretty close to his hut, he lives on the outskirts of the small town that Bran described to Osha.

As far as some of the arguments/discussions go on readers vs. non-readers and pointing out things that can only be known in the books:

The bread and salt thing and the breaking of that vow was in an interview that Entertainment Weekly had with GRRM about THE SHOW. Remember, he is a producer, and writer for the show, and includes things in Q&A discussions that he has around the country, as well as interviews that help to explain certain things that happened. This fills in the gaps that maybe were not fully explained in the show, but are in the books.

Maybe it is just me, but if a writer/producer of a show is interviewed about the show, and discusses backstory or motivations of certain characters, I don't consider that as "Off-limits" because it wasn't on the screen.

I do agree with banning people like Proc, and others that quote spoilers directly from the book, but come on. Every major show out there has interviews, websites, panel Q&As at conventions, etc. where people involved with the show may discuss things to better show their understanding of characters and their actions. This is completely inbounds for discussion on a thread like this.

The general rule of thumb I have used is not to discuss things that aren't on the HBO website. The HBO website is purely about the show, has no spoilers, and actually has contradictions to the books. For instance it has Loras as the Heir to Highgarden and the only son to Mace Tyrell, in the books there is another brother named Willas who does not exist in the show and is the heir but cutting him made sense for brevity and he is really irrelevant. On that point though they actually had Willas on the Tyrell House family tree in Season 1 but have since removed him.

There are lots of "Inside the Episode" type features on the website that are designed to try to explain the importance of the political maneuverings. The show producers have made it clear they want people to know as much as they can to fully understand the show but they have limitations due to time and budget as to how much they can actually put on film. For instance they really would prefer to have a 12 episode season but it was decided it just wasn't feasible to get that done every year because of the scope of the show. The brevity isn't for creative or artistic purposes, that's part of why they are talking about doing a prequel series.

Personally I couldn't care less about being called a nerd or whatever for being so engaged with the show and books. It's the best fiction I've ever read and the best TV show I've ever seen. My life doesn't revolve around it, hell it is way behind Aggie football in terms of interests for me but it is still something I find fascinating and enjoyable. Keep on hatin' though.