03_Aggie said:
Yet nothing. Almost 24hrs since I made the post and nothing from all these supposed baseball geniuses to back up their superior take.
Oh wait, there's "why'd they do it if it didn't help." Superior intellect there.
MaxPower said:
The nuance is you're assuming the stealing was successful all the time. When you're wrong you drastically decrease your chances of a positive outcome by swinging at what you have concluded is a fastball but turns out to be a breaking ball (or being unable to swing at a strike and being forced to take the pitch). There's also the possibility of counter intelligence, which would be fascinating in and of itself. If a team knew or suspected you were stealing signs they could set you up for a critical point in the game to get an out.
So I'd say the counter argument to Bryant's argument that it's worse than roids is simply this.....the Astros didn't actually know the pitch every time whereas McGwire and Sosa sure were juiced for every pitch during the HR race.
Oh really. You've gone through every pitch of the season? I'd love to see your analysis. If you're referring to the guy in twitter who looked it up he did not come close to viewing every pitch of the season.Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:
The nuance is you're assuming the stealing was successful all the time. When you're wrong you drastically decrease your chances of a positive outcome by swinging at what you have concluded is a fastball but turns out to be a breaking ball (or being unable to swing at a strike and being forced to take the pitch). There's also the possibility of counter intelligence, which would be fascinating in and of itself. If a team knew or suspected you were stealing signs they could set you up for a critical point in the game to get an out.
So I'd say the counter argument to Bryant's argument that it's worse than roids is simply this.....the Astros didn't actually know the pitch every time whereas McGwire and Sosa sure were juiced for every pitch during the HR race.
To their credit, the Astros did the cheating well. If you watch any game from 2017, the bangs at MMP line up almost 100% with a slider (or 2 bangs for a changeup). There shouldn't need to be counterintelligence, though it did happen in at least one instance where a pitcher and catcher changed signs and the batter expected fastball but got offspeed and struck out. I only know of one instance though.
Aggies2009 said:03_Aggie said:
Yet nothing. Almost 24hrs since I made the post and nothing from all these supposed baseball geniuses to back up their superior take.
Oh wait, there's "why'd they do it if it didn't help." Superior intellect there.
What was your point, exactly? That stealing signs electronically and relaying them to the hitter didn't make a difference?
MaxPower said:Oh really. You've gone through every pitch of the season? I'd love to see your analysis. If you're referring to the guy in twitter who looked it up he did not come close to viewing every pitch of the season.Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:
The nuance is you're assuming the stealing was successful all the time. When you're wrong you drastically decrease your chances of a positive outcome by swinging at what you have concluded is a fastball but turns out to be a breaking ball (or being unable to swing at a strike and being forced to take the pitch). There's also the possibility of counter intelligence, which would be fascinating in and of itself. If a team knew or suspected you were stealing signs they could set you up for a critical point in the game to get an out.
So I'd say the counter argument to Bryant's argument that it's worse than roids is simply this.....the Astros didn't actually know the pitch every time whereas McGwire and Sosa sure were juiced for every pitch during the HR race.
To their credit, the Astros did the cheating well. If you watch any game from 2017, the bangs at MMP line up almost 100% with a slider (or 2 bangs for a changeup). There shouldn't need to be counterintelligence, though it did happen in at least one instance where a pitcher and catcher changed signs and the batter expected fastball but got offspeed and struck out. I only know of one instance though.
And I never said they didn't cheat. I'm saying you can't act as if they knew every pitch, every time, all the time. If so then they should have been awful the next season when they stopped doing it.
Alta said:
It's a loser mentality and you can't even have a conversation with folks like that. They then make up facts to fit their story as to why it's ok. It's tainted and that sucks but at the end of the day they got caught, can't own up to it and want to justify it. Lance Armstrong was fine doping all those years because "everybody else was doing it" too. There is nothing more annoying in sports or life than the excuse that "everybody else was doing it." That is something a 5 year old says.
03_Aggie said:Aggies2009 said:03_Aggie said:
Yet nothing. Almost 24hrs since I made the post and nothing from all these supposed baseball geniuses to back up their superior take.
Oh wait, there's "why'd they do it if it didn't help." Superior intellect there.
What was your point, exactly? That stealing signs electronically and relaying them to the hitter didn't make a difference?
My opinion is clearly stated in the post.
Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:Oh really. You've gone through every pitch of the season? I'd love to see your analysis. If you're referring to the guy in twitter who looked it up he did not come close to viewing every pitch of the season.Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:
The nuance is you're assuming the stealing was successful all the time. When you're wrong you drastically decrease your chances of a positive outcome by swinging at what you have concluded is a fastball but turns out to be a breaking ball (or being unable to swing at a strike and being forced to take the pitch). There's also the possibility of counter intelligence, which would be fascinating in and of itself. If a team knew or suspected you were stealing signs they could set you up for a critical point in the game to get an out.
So I'd say the counter argument to Bryant's argument that it's worse than roids is simply this.....the Astros didn't actually know the pitch every time whereas McGwire and Sosa sure were juiced for every pitch during the HR race.
To their credit, the Astros did the cheating well. If you watch any game from 2017, the bangs at MMP line up almost 100% with a slider (or 2 bangs for a changeup). There shouldn't need to be counterintelligence, though it did happen in at least one instance where a pitcher and catcher changed signs and the batter expected fastball but got offspeed and struck out. I only know of one instance though.
And I never said they didn't cheat. I'm saying you can't act as if they knew every pitch, every time, all the time. If so then they should have been awful the next season when they stopped doing it.
I mean I haven't looked at every pitch, but I wasn't the one making the claim that "well they didn't ACTUALLY know", so it isn't my job to prove a negative.
Also, if you believe they stopped, there isn't much that c. Be done for you.
MaxPower said:Oh really. You've gone through every pitch of the season? I'd love to see your analysis. If you're referring to the guy in twitter who looked it up he did not come close to viewing every pitch of the season.Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:
The nuance is you're assuming the stealing was successful all the time. When you're wrong you drastically decrease your chances of a positive outcome by swinging at what you have concluded is a fastball but turns out to be a breaking ball (or being unable to swing at a strike and being forced to take the pitch). There's also the possibility of counter intelligence, which would be fascinating in and of itself. If a team knew or suspected you were stealing signs they could set you up for a critical point in the game to get an out.
So I'd say the counter argument to Bryant's argument that it's worse than roids is simply this.....the Astros didn't actually know the pitch every time whereas McGwire and Sosa sure were juiced for every pitch during the HR race.
To their credit, the Astros did the cheating well. If you watch any game from 2017, the bangs at MMP line up almost 100% with a slider (or 2 bangs for a changeup). There shouldn't need to be counterintelligence, though it did happen in at least one instance where a pitcher and catcher changed signs and the batter expected fastball but got offspeed and struck out. I only know of one instance though.
And I never said they didn't cheat. I'm saying you can't act as if they knew every pitch, every time, all the time. If so then they should have been awful the next season when they stopped doing it.
Flexbone said:Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:Oh really. You've gone through every pitch of the season? I'd love to see your analysis. If you're referring to the guy in twitter who looked it up he did not come close to viewing every pitch of the season.Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:
The nuance is you're assuming the stealing was successful all the time. When you're wrong you drastically decrease your chances of a positive outcome by swinging at what you have concluded is a fastball but turns out to be a breaking ball (or being unable to swing at a strike and being forced to take the pitch). There's also the possibility of counter intelligence, which would be fascinating in and of itself. If a team knew or suspected you were stealing signs they could set you up for a critical point in the game to get an out.
So I'd say the counter argument to Bryant's argument that it's worse than roids is simply this.....the Astros didn't actually know the pitch every time whereas McGwire and Sosa sure were juiced for every pitch during the HR race.
To their credit, the Astros did the cheating well. If you watch any game from 2017, the bangs at MMP line up almost 100% with a slider (or 2 bangs for a changeup). There shouldn't need to be counterintelligence, though it did happen in at least one instance where a pitcher and catcher changed signs and the batter expected fastball but got offspeed and struck out. I only know of one instance though.
And I never said they didn't cheat. I'm saying you can't act as if they knew every pitch, every time, all the time. If so then they should have been awful the next season when they stopped doing it.
I mean I haven't looked at every pitch, but I wasn't the one making the claim that "well they didn't ACTUALLY know", so it isn't my job to prove a negative.
Also, if you believe they stopped, there isn't much that c. Be done for you.
Wait.. you believe they did it because the investigation determined so. But the same investigation determined they stopped...and you don't believe it?
Look at yourself.
Aggies2009 said:Flexbone said:Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:Oh really. You've gone through every pitch of the season? I'd love to see your analysis. If you're referring to the guy in twitter who looked it up he did not come close to viewing every pitch of the season.Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:
The nuance is you're assuming the stealing was successful all the time. When you're wrong you drastically decrease your chances of a positive outcome by swinging at what you have concluded is a fastball but turns out to be a breaking ball (or being unable to swing at a strike and being forced to take the pitch). There's also the possibility of counter intelligence, which would be fascinating in and of itself. If a team knew or suspected you were stealing signs they could set you up for a critical point in the game to get an out.
So I'd say the counter argument to Bryant's argument that it's worse than roids is simply this.....the Astros didn't actually know the pitch every time whereas McGwire and Sosa sure were juiced for every pitch during the HR race.
To their credit, the Astros did the cheating well. If you watch any game from 2017, the bangs at MMP line up almost 100% with a slider (or 2 bangs for a changeup). There shouldn't need to be counterintelligence, though it did happen in at least one instance where a pitcher and catcher changed signs and the batter expected fastball but got offspeed and struck out. I only know of one instance though.
And I never said they didn't cheat. I'm saying you can't act as if they knew every pitch, every time, all the time. If so then they should have been awful the next season when they stopped doing it.
I mean I haven't looked at every pitch, but I wasn't the one making the claim that "well they didn't ACTUALLY know", so it isn't my job to prove a negative.
Also, if you believe they stopped, there isn't much that c. Be done for you.
Wait.. you believe they did it because the investigation determined so. But the same investigation determined they stopped...and you don't believe it?
Look at yourself.
It didn't determine they stopped. It couldn't determine that they did it.
Further, your little jabs at people speak volumes about you. But you're spending your life on this forum defending cheaters so there's not much further low you can stoop. Lol
03_Aggie said:
Go figure it out if you want to throw your $.02 in. Don't act like it isn't worth your time. You spend quite a bit on this topic.
Alta said:
What's pathetic is making excuses for cheating. I never said their title should be taken away. I said I think it's tainted and their excuses in the past week sound like what losers would say. Own up to what you did and move on but stop acting like it didn't matter.
I've been an Astros fan since I can remember. Went to two of the World Series games in 2017. My opinion doesn't matter worth **** but as a fan of the team their 2017 championship doesn't mean much anymore. Just like you others are entitled to their opinion. IMO it deserves an asterisk.
Flexbone said:Alta said:
What's pathetic is making excuses for cheating. I never said their title should be taken away. I said I think it's tainted and their excuses in the past week sound like what losers would say. Own up to what you did and move on but stop acting like it didn't matter.
I've been an Astros fan since I can remember. Went to two of the World Series games in 2017. My opinion doesn't matter worth **** but as a fan of the team their 2017 championship doesn't mean much anymore. Just like you others are entitled to their opinion. IMO it deserves an asterisk.
If you knew every team that's ever won a title also "cheated" (again, it wasn't cheating), does that change your opinion?
That's my whole point. Tying your heart to a professional sports team when your standard is that they achieve while playing as pure as the driven snow is one of the dumbest things anyone can do.
Aggies2009 said:03_Aggie said:
Go figure it out if you want to throw your $.02 in. Don't act like it isn't worth your time. You spend quite a bit on this topic.
Feel free if you want to paste it. Otherwise stop whining about nobody giving you attention.
03_Aggie said:
Go figure it out if you want to throw your $.02 in. Don't act like it isn't worth your time. You spend quite a bit on this topic.
If you honestly believe they knew every pitch then you've actually proven the cheating didn't matter or impact the game. Do you know why or do I have to spell it out for you? Because they apparently did it for an entire season, thousands of pitches and weren't any better than they were the next season when they weren't doing it anymore or the season after that. They weren't any better at home than on the road.Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:Oh really. You've gone through every pitch of the season? I'd love to see your analysis. If you're referring to the guy in twitter who looked it up he did not come close to viewing every pitch of the season.Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:
The nuance is you're assuming the stealing was successful all the time. When you're wrong you drastically decrease your chances of a positive outcome by swinging at what you have concluded is a fastball but turns out to be a breaking ball (or being unable to swing at a strike and being forced to take the pitch). There's also the possibility of counter intelligence, which would be fascinating in and of itself. If a team knew or suspected you were stealing signs they could set you up for a critical point in the game to get an out.
So I'd say the counter argument to Bryant's argument that it's worse than roids is simply this.....the Astros didn't actually know the pitch every time whereas McGwire and Sosa sure were juiced for every pitch during the HR race.
To their credit, the Astros did the cheating well. If you watch any game from 2017, the bangs at MMP line up almost 100% with a slider (or 2 bangs for a changeup). There shouldn't need to be counterintelligence, though it did happen in at least one instance where a pitcher and catcher changed signs and the batter expected fastball but got offspeed and struck out. I only know of one instance though.
And I never said they didn't cheat. I'm saying you can't act as if they knew every pitch, every time, all the time. If so then they should have been awful the next season when they stopped doing it.
I mean I haven't looked at every pitch, but I wasn't the one making the claim that "well they didn't ACTUALLY know", so it isn't my job to prove a negative.
Also, if you believe they stopped, there isn't much that c. Be done for you.
Aggies2009 said:Flexbone said:Alta said:
What's pathetic is making excuses for cheating. I never said their title should be taken away. I said I think it's tainted and their excuses in the past week sound like what losers would say. Own up to what you did and move on but stop acting like it didn't matter.
I've been an Astros fan since I can remember. Went to two of the World Series games in 2017. My opinion doesn't matter worth **** but as a fan of the team their 2017 championship doesn't mean much anymore. Just like you others are entitled to their opinion. IMO it deserves an asterisk.
If you knew every team that's ever won a title also "cheated" (again, it wasn't cheating), does that change your opinion?
That's my whole point. Tying your heart to a professional sports team when your standard is that they achieve while playing as pure as the driven snow is one of the dumbest things anyone can do.
Then why are you spending so many posts trying to convince people to not look down on the one little title the Astros won*?
You made the assertion that the banging lines up "almost" every time for a slider. I guess that's you actually admitting they didn't know all the time. Carry on with your ridiculous blabbering.Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:Oh really. You've gone through every pitch of the season? I'd love to see your analysis. If you're referring to the guy in twitter who looked it up he did not come close to viewing every pitch of the season.Aggies2009 said:MaxPower said:
The nuance is you're assuming the stealing was successful all the time. When you're wrong you drastically decrease your chances of a positive outcome by swinging at what you have concluded is a fastball but turns out to be a breaking ball (or being unable to swing at a strike and being forced to take the pitch). There's also the possibility of counter intelligence, which would be fascinating in and of itself. If a team knew or suspected you were stealing signs they could set you up for a critical point in the game to get an out.
So I'd say the counter argument to Bryant's argument that it's worse than roids is simply this.....the Astros didn't actually know the pitch every time whereas McGwire and Sosa sure were juiced for every pitch during the HR race.
To their credit, the Astros did the cheating well. If you watch any game from 2017, the bangs at MMP line up almost 100% with a slider (or 2 bangs for a changeup). There shouldn't need to be counterintelligence, though it did happen in at least one instance where a pitcher and catcher changed signs and the batter expected fastball but got offspeed and struck out. I only know of one instance though.
And I never said they didn't cheat. I'm saying you can't act as if they knew every pitch, every time, all the time. If so then they should have been awful the next season when they stopped doing it.
I mean I haven't looked at every pitch, but I wasn't the one making the claim that "well they didn't ACTUALLY know", so it isn't my job to prove a negative.
Also, if you believe they stopped, there isn't much that c. Be done for you.
03_Aggie said:Aggies2009 said:03_Aggie said:
Yet nothing. Almost 24hrs since I made the post and nothing from all these supposed baseball geniuses to back up their superior take.
Oh wait, there's "why'd they do it if it didn't help." Superior intellect there.
What was your point, exactly? That stealing signs electronically and relaying them to the hitter didn't make a difference?
My opinion is clearly stated in the post.
Lt. Joe Bookman said:03_Aggie said:Aggies2009 said:03_Aggie said:
Yet nothing. Almost 24hrs since I made the post and nothing from all these supposed baseball geniuses to back up their superior take.
Oh wait, there's "why'd they do it if it didn't help." Superior intellect there.
What was your point, exactly? That stealing signs electronically and relaying them to the hitter didn't make a difference?
My opinion is clearly stated in the post.
It's such a ridiculous take that everyone needs you to state it twice.
03_Aggie said:Lt. Joe Bookman said:03_Aggie said:Aggies2009 said:03_Aggie said:
Yet nothing. Almost 24hrs since I made the post and nothing from all these supposed baseball geniuses to back up their superior take.
Oh wait, there's "why'd they do it if it didn't help." Superior intellect there.
What was your point, exactly? That stealing signs electronically and relaying them to the hitter didn't make a difference?
My opinion is clearly stated in the post.
It's such a ridiculous take that everyone needs you to state it twice.
Yes it's terrible "because I think so".
All this time and that's the best rebuttal these self proclaimed baseball prodigies can come up with.
Oh, and, "they wouldn't have done it if it didn't work."
investorAg83 said:03_Aggie said:
Go figure it out if you want to throw your $.02 in. Don't act like it isn't worth your time. You spend quite a bit on this topic.
Assuming you really are an idiot and not just trolling, let's see if we can agree on 2 things:
1) the purpose of an off speed pitch is to throw off batter's timing
2) all things being equal, the faster a pitch is coming in, the harder it is to hit
If you don't agree with these universal truths, there's no point in continuing.
annie88 said:
I've had enough of this *****
So overblown.
Those who ate the Astros and don't want to support them **** off.
Those who do, a new season approaches.
Get the **** over it.
Lt. Joe Bookman said:annie88 said:
I've had enough of this *****
So overblown.
Those who ate the Astros and don't want to support them **** off.
Those who do, a new season approaches.
Get the **** over it.
You may not want to tune in this season then. It's not going away.
SquirrellyDan said:Lt. Joe Bookman said:annie88 said:
I've had enough of this *****
So overblown.
Those who ate the Astros and don't want to support them **** off.
Those who do, a new season approaches.
Get the **** over it.
You may not want to tune in this season then. It's not going away.
As long as the Astros continue winning, you're probably right. Can't wait!
Ranger #007 said:
It's overblown that the Astros were cheating their asses off in their WS Season? I think most people not in Houston would disagree.
