lda6339 said:

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4. It is an advantage, but since it wasn't an electric device its not cheating.

---

Spot on.

JRC0811 said:

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03_Aggie said:

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Aggies2009 said:

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CampingAg said:

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While I do think this does happen other places, I believe it's very isolated. If "everybody illegally steals signs" as many fans are using as a defense, catchers everywhere would be mixing up signs without a runner on second. You rarely (if ever) see that. Every team tries to pick signs and look for tells with their eyeballs. Not everybody uses electronics.

---

It's pure whataboutism, nothing more. If you look, there is TONS of deflection going on. Most of it has turned into ad hominem attacks on other teams. It's like the child who throws a tantrum when they get caught doing something wrong. It started with AJ Hinch being a ****bag over it and has apparently spilled over to the fans and culture surrounding that franchise.

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Damn, you sure have a way with debate buzz words.

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Sounds like someone who spends too much time on Forum 16.

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See? Even now. You're trying to turn it into an attack on me and turn it into a discussion of ANYTHING, so long as it isn't the fact that there are mountains of evidence (and more piling up by the hour) that your beloved Astros cheated.

TexasRebel said:

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lda6339 said:

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4. It is an advantage, but since it wasn't an electric device its not cheating.

---

Spot on.

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Um. There's a word for devices like cameras and monitors. You know what that is?

TexasRebel said:

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lda6339 said:

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4. It is an advantage, but since it wasn't an electric device its not cheating.

---

Spot on.

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A TV is not an electronic device but a bullpen phone is.

Aggies2009 said:

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03_Aggie said:

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Aggies2009 said:

---

CampingAg said:

---

While I do think this does happen other places, I believe it's very isolated. If "everybody illegally steals signs" as many fans are using as a defense, catchers everywhere would be mixing up signs without a runner on second. You rarely (if ever) see that. Every team tries to pick signs and look for tells with their eyeballs. Not everybody uses electronics.

---

It's pure whataboutism, nothing more. If you look, there is TONS of deflection going on. Most of it has turned into ad hominem attacks on other teams. It's like the child who throws a tantrum when they get caught doing something wrong. It started with AJ Hinch being a ****bag over it and has apparently spilled over to the fans and culture surrounding that franchise.

---

Damn, you sure have a way with debate buzz words.

---

I mean, if you use pathetic tactics to defend, they're going to be pointed out. Amazing concept, isn't it?

How hard is it to say, "Man, if this is true (and it looks like it is), that's pretty disappointing."?

---

Well you're struggling to recognize two different events occurring two years a part...but please continue on in your effort to show how great you're at debating issues.

03_Aggie said:

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Aggies2009 said:

---

03_Aggie said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

CampingAg said:

---

While I do think this does happen other places, I believe it's very isolated. If "everybody illegally steals signs" as many fans are using as a defense, catchers everywhere would be mixing up signs without a runner on second. You rarely (if ever) see that. Every team tries to pick signs and look for tells with their eyeballs. Not everybody uses electronics.

---

It's pure whataboutism, nothing more. If you look, there is TONS of deflection going on. Most of it has turned into ad hominem attacks on other teams. It's like the child who throws a tantrum when they get caught doing something wrong. It started with AJ Hinch being a ****bag over it and has apparently spilled over to the fans and culture surrounding that franchise.

---

Damn, you sure have a way with debate buzz words.

---

I mean, if you use pathetic tactics to defend, they're going to be pointed out. Amazing concept, isn't it?

How hard is it to say, "Man, if this is true (and it looks like it is), that's pretty disappointing."?

---

Well you're struggling to recognize two different events occurring two years a part...but please continue on in your effort to show how great your at debating issues.

---

Um, there are videos of the same thing happening in the 2019 season. HTH

03_Aggie said:

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Aggies2009 said:

---

03_Aggie said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

CampingAg said:

---

While I do think this does happen other places, I believe it's very isolated. If "everybody illegally steals signs" as many fans are using as a defense, catchers everywhere would be mixing up signs without a runner on second. You rarely (if ever) see that. Every team tries to pick signs and look for tells with their eyeballs. Not everybody uses electronics.

---

It's pure whataboutism, nothing more. If you look, there is TONS of deflection going on. Most of it has turned into ad hominem attacks on other teams. It's like the child who throws a tantrum when they get caught doing something wrong. It started with AJ Hinch being a ****bag over it and has apparently spilled over to the fans and culture surrounding that franchise.

---

Damn, you sure have a way with debate buzz words.

---

I mean, if you use pathetic tactics to defend, they're going to be pointed out. Amazing concept, isn't it?

How hard is it to say, "Man, if this is true (and it looks like it is), that's pretty disappointing."?

---

Well you're struggling to recognize two different events occurring two years a part...but please continue on in your effort to show how great you're at debating issues.

---

What two events two years apart are you referring to?

ORAggieFan said:

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TexasRebel said:

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lda6339 said:

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4. It is an advantage, but since it wasn't an electric device its not cheating.

---

Spot on.

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A TV is not an electronic device but a bullpen phone is.

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Boy. You're really hugging those debate tactics right there.

Prove it.

03_Aggie said:

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Where can one find this mountain of evidence? All I've seen so far is a breakdown by a Yankees fan which examines one at bat in the eight inning of a game.

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It's all over this thread and twitter. I'd you've not seen it you're not looking.

Edit: I'm referring to 2017. I haven't said anything on 2019.

ORAggieFan said:

---

03_Aggie said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

03_Aggie said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

CampingAg said:

---

While I do think this does happen other places, I believe it's very isolated. If "everybody illegally steals signs" as many fans are using as a defense, catchers everywhere would be mixing up signs without a runner on second. You rarely (if ever) see that. Every team tries to pick signs and look for tells with their eyeballs. Not everybody uses electronics.

---

It's pure whataboutism, nothing more. If you look, there is TONS of deflection going on. Most of it has turned into ad hominem attacks on other teams. It's like the child who throws a tantrum when they get caught doing something wrong. It started with AJ Hinch being a ****bag over it and has apparently spilled over to the fans and culture surrounding that franchise.

---

Damn, you sure have a way with debate buzz words.

---

I mean, if you use pathetic tactics to defend, they're going to be pointed out. Amazing concept, isn't it?

How hard is it to say, "Man, if this is true (and it looks like it is), that's pretty disappointing."?

---

Well you're struggling to recognize two different events occurring two years a part...but please continue on in your effort to show how great you're at debating issues.

---

What two events two years apart are you referring to?

---

This all stems from supposed actions during the 2017 season. Aj's "being a ****bag" was his sarcastic comments during the 2019 ALCS

03_Aggie said:

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ORAggieFan said:

---

03_Aggie said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

03_Aggie said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

CampingAg said:

---

While I do think this does happen other places, I believe it's very isolated. If "everybody illegally steals signs" as many fans are using as a defense, catchers everywhere would be mixing up signs without a runner on second. You rarely (if ever) see that. Every team tries to pick signs and look for tells with their eyeballs. Not everybody uses electronics.

---

It's pure whataboutism, nothing more. If you look, there is TONS of deflection going on. Most of it has turned into ad hominem attacks on other teams. It's like the child who throws a tantrum when they get caught doing something wrong. It started with AJ Hinch being a ****bag over it and has apparently spilled over to the fans and culture surrounding that franchise.

---

Damn, you sure have a way with debate buzz words.

---

I mean, if you use pathetic tactics to defend, they're going to be pointed out. Amazing concept, isn't it?

How hard is it to say, "Man, if this is true (and it looks like it is), that's pretty disappointing."?

---

Well you're struggling to recognize two different events occurring two years a part...but please continue on in your effort to show how great you're at debating issues.

---

What two events two years apart are you referring to?

---

This all stems from supposed actions during the 2017 season. Aj's "being a ****bag" was his sarcastic comments during the 2019 ALCS

---

OK, so totally changing the topic. It's not worth arguing 2019 when 2017 is so obvious.

ORAggieFan said:

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03_Aggie said:

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Where can one find this mountain of evidence? All I've seen so far is a breakdown by a Yankees fan which examines one at bat in the eight inning of a game.

---

It's all over this thread and twitter. I'd you've not seen it you're not looking.

Edit: I'm referring to 2017. I haven't said anything on 2019.

---

You are correct, I haven't been looking.

Admittedly, there have been many more examples of it happening in 2017 than 2019. But it's happened in 2019. And there's this thing about trust that if you are a proven liar and cheater, people are going to think you're doing it even when you're not. Humans have evolved to feel this way.

03_Aggie said:

---

ORAggieFan said:

---

03_Aggie said:

---

Where can one find this mountain of evidence? All I've seen so far is a breakdown by a Yankees fan which examines one at bat in the eight inning of a game.

---

It's all over this thread and twitter. I'd you've not seen it you're not looking.

Edit: I'm referring to 2017. I haven't said anything on 2019.

---

You are correct, I haven't been looking.

---

Your ignorance is forgiven, then.

ClickClack said:

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Aggies2009 said:

---

Admittedly, there have been many more examples of it happening in 2017 than 2019. But it's happened in 2019. And there's this thing about trust that if you are a proven liar and cheater, people are going to think you're doing it even when you're not. Humans have evolved to feel this way.

---

Deep stuff.

Here's the thing. If the Astros found a loophole or gray area and took advantage, that's one thing. If we blatantly broke rules, that's another and it will be revealed officially by MLB.

Until then, everybody keep grasping at anything you can to make you feel better that the Astros won a WS and are more relevant than your team.

The frequency of responses on this thread reveals a deep desperation and butthurt.

---

What are you referring to is grey area? You're suggesting grey area is a TV not being an electronic device? You realize that the Yankees were punished for using a bullpen phone in a championship season to relay signs. The phone is ruled by MLB to have been an electronic device. Yet, you think a TV is grey area.

How about this, let's put any amount of money you choose up to $10,000 in escrow. If the Astros have no punishment what so ever for 2017 actions, you win. If they are fined or have any other punishment, suspension, draft picks, etc, I win. We'll give it 18 months to play out (given how long it took to punish Red Sox).

JRC0811 said:

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Aggies2009 said:

---

03_Aggie said:

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Where can one find this mountain of evidence? All I've seen so far is a breakdown by a Yankees fan which examines one at bat in the eight inning of a game.

---

---

I am a fully biased Astros fan, I'll admit. This really isn't a good video to try to prove anything about this game or 2019. There's a healthy thread about this on the baseball subreddit where it seems mostly Yankees fans are salivating over any and every chance to try to find something against the Astros.

That said, the Red Sox were fined for whatever they had implemented for stealing signs, the Yankees may have been helped by Carlos Beltran this last year and the Red Sox accused them of something similar, and the Rangers were also listed in the Athletic investigation. This is a league wide issue, but, after the recent PR bungling from the front office, the Astros are the whipping boy. I'm going to wait until some kind of official investigation is completed before rendering judgement instead of listening to internet sleuths with an agenda.


What this whole debacle to me has come across as so far:

---

Now this is a far more fair and reasonable take.

I agree with a few things:

Yes, everyone cheats in one way or another. Until the MLB grows a pair, it's going to keep happening. Look at the Patriots. Spygate in 2007 was swept under the rug and they were right back to cheating with Deflategate a few years ago. And again, nothing happened. They're going to keep cheating so long as the penalty is light because the rewards for doing so are greater. People waiting on the MLB to come down hard and make an example are going to be hugely disappointed.

And I agree- if the Astros had gone .500 this year, nobody would've cared about it. But because of the stuff beforehand with the aGM and the fact that they ARE a good team make them the target/scapegoat for it all. I think the Yankees fans have their pitchforks and torches because of how things went down in the ALCS and how Hinch came out obnoxiously dismissive of the accusations.... when the Astros have now been caught red handed doing what the Yankees accused them of, ableit years later. Had Hinch just ignored it, I don't think there would've been as much uproar over it.

ClickClack said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

Admittedly, there have been many more examples of it happening in 2017 than 2019. But it's happened in 2019. And there's this thing about trust that if you are a proven liar and cheater, people are going to think you're doing it even when you're not. Humans have evolved to feel this way.

---

Until then, everybody keep grasping at anything you can to make you feel better that the Astros won a WS and are more relevant than your team.

---

LOL 1 WS = more relevant lol

ClickClack said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

Admittedly, there have been many more examples of it happening in 2017 than 2019. But it's happened in 2019. And there's this thing about trust that if you are a proven liar and cheater, people are going to think you're doing it even when you're not. Humans have evolved to feel this way.

---

Deep stuff.

Here's the thing. If the Astros found a loophole or gray area and took advantage, that's one thing. If we blatantly broke rules, that's another and it will be revealed officially by MLB.

Until then, everybody keep grasping at anything you can to make you feel better that the Astros won a WS and are more relevant than your team.

The frequency of responses on this thread reveals a deep desperation and butthurt.

---

You don't even know what "my team" is. I'm sure multiple people have scavenged my post history in hopes of "exposing" my team at this point so that they can somehow use that to dismiss hard facts, but whatever.

I disagree that the MLB will do anything. Similar to how the NFL destroyed evidence against the Patriots, you're going to see a similar sweeping under the rug. They stand to lose WAY too much money if they actually did anything of note.

Aggies2009 said:

---

Now this is a far more fair and reasonable take.

I agree with a few things:

Yes, everyone cheats in one way or another. Until the MLB grows a pair, it's going to keep happening. Look at the Patriots. Spygate in 2007 was swept under the rug and they were right back to cheating with Deflategate a few years ago. And again, nothing happened. They're going to keep cheating so long as the penalty is light because the rewards for doing so are greater. People waiting on the MLB to come down hard and make an example are going to be hugely disappointed.

And I agree- if the Astros had gone .500 this year, nobody would've cared about it. But because of the stuff beforehand with the aGM and the fact that they ARE a good team make them the target/scapegoat for it all. I think the Yankees fans have their pitchforks and torches because of how things went down in the ALCS and how Hinch came out obnoxiously dismissive of the accusations.... when the Astros have now been caught red handed doing what the Yankees accused them of, ableit years later. Had Hinch just ignored it, I don't think there would've been as much uproar over it.

---

What isn't being discussed as much is the fact that the idea, whatever that may have entailed, came from a new player to the Astros who said his previous team did this and it helped. Some are assuming Carlos Beltran. His previous teams? The New York Yankees and the Texas Rangers.

Since the 2017 WS was 24 months ago can you just send me the check?

Maybe they had this guy.

03_Aggie said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

ClickClack said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

Admittedly, there have been many more examples of it happening in 2017 than 2019. But it's happened in 2019. And there's this thing about trust that if you are a proven liar and cheater, people are going to think you're doing it even when you're not. Humans have evolved to feel this way.

---

Deep stuff.

Here's the thing. If the Astros found a loophole or gray area and took advantage, that's one thing. If we blatantly broke rules, that's another and it will be revealed officially by MLB.

Until then, everybody keep grasping at anything you can to make you feel better that the Astros won a WS and are more relevant than your team.

The frequency of responses on this thread reveals a deep desperation and butthurt.

---

You don't even know what "my team" is. I'm sure multiple people have scavenged my post history in hopes of "exposing" my team at this point so that they can somehow use that to dismiss hard facts, but whatever.

I disagree that the MLB will do anything. Similar to how the NFL destroyed evidence against the Patriots, you're going to see a similar sweeping under the rug. They stand to lose WAY too much money if they actually did anything of note.

---

You continue to vastly overate the weight of your opinion and the "facts" you've posted on this thread. I feel confident in saying nobody in here cares enough about your opinion to try and decipher which team you support.

---

Yeah? That's strange- Multiple posters were immediately dismissed on account of being fans of certain teams. I figure with how vehemently the Astros fans are trying to deny/deflect/defend, they'd be looking for the easy way out. Kinda like their team, yeah?

I also like how you put facts in quotes. Do you not agree that the videos posted are pretty clear evidence? Cause I have plenty more if you'd like to be completely decimated.

Wow, pretty damning stuff from what I've seen/read. Has the MLB ever stripped a champion before?

TexasRebel said:

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Since the 2017 WS was 24 months ago can you just send me the check?

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It's pretty obvious I mean from now.

Like I said in an earlier post, it's the unintelligent fans arguing for the Astros as the smart ones know they are in the wrong and stay away.

Aggies2009 said:

---

ClickClack said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

Admittedly, there have been many more examples of it happening in 2017 than 2019. But it's happened in 2019. And there's this thing about trust that if you are a proven liar and cheater, people are going to think you're doing it even when you're not. Humans have evolved to feel this way.

---

Deep stuff.

Here's the thing. If the Astros found a loophole or gray area and took advantage, that's one thing. If we blatantly broke rules, that's another and it will be revealed officially by MLB.

Until then, everybody keep grasping at anything you can to make you feel better that the Astros won a WS and are more relevant than your team.

The frequency of responses on this thread reveals a deep desperation and butthurt.

---

You don't even know what "my team" is. I'm sure multiple people have scavenged my post history in hopes of "exposing" my team at this point so that they can somehow use that to dismiss hard facts, but whatever.

I disagree that the MLB will do anything. Similar to how the NFL destroyed evidence against the Patriots, you're going to see a similar sweeping under the rug. They stand to lose WAY too much money if they actually did anything of note.

---

MLB has a history of "doing something" when the integrity of the game is involved.

Schall 02 said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

ClickClack said:

---

Aggies2009 said:

---

Admittedly, there have been many more examples of it happening in 2017 than 2019. But it's happened in 2019. And there's this thing about trust that if you are a proven liar and cheater, people are going to think you're doing it even when you're not. Humans have evolved to feel this way.

---

Deep stuff.

Here's the thing. If the Astros found a loophole or gray area and took advantage, that's one thing. If we blatantly broke rules, that's another and it will be revealed officially by MLB.

Until then, everybody keep grasping at anything you can to make you feel better that the Astros won a WS and are more relevant than your team.

The frequency of responses on this thread reveals a deep desperation and butthurt.

---

You don't even know what "my team" is. I'm sure multiple people have scavenged my post history in hopes of "exposing" my team at this point so that they can somehow use that to dismiss hard facts, but whatever.

I disagree that the MLB will do anything. Similar to how the NFL destroyed evidence against the Patriots, you're going to see a similar sweeping under the rug. They stand to lose WAY too much money if they actually did anything of note.

---

MLB has a history of "doing something" when the integrity of the game is involved.

---

They did at one point, yes. Nowadays, guys get ejected and SOMETIMES suspended for a little bit when they use pine tar, corked bats, technology (the Red Sox AND Yankees have been caught cheating and got slaps on the wrist) and steroids... Most suspensions coming from steroids and lasting a quarter of a season.

Compare that to the 1919 White Sox who were all banned for life, some who didn't even take part in the scandal but knew about it. Or Pete Rose who got banned for life in 1989.

At worst, I think the Astros are fined and MAY lose a draft pick or two. That's nothing when you consider what the cheating has done for their franchise, fan base, etc.