Astros = CHEATERS

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MelvinUdall
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In reply to ORAggieFan • 9:44p, 11/13/19
ORAggieFan said:
TexasRebel said:
So prove that they were using electronic devices to steal signs.

You asked if there were any claims.

If the eye witness testimony isn't enough proof or the videos verifying the noise, then I don't know what you need. But, you asked if anyone claimed they were cheating and that is exactly what happened.


Have you ever played baseball? Do you understand the reaction time to hit a baseball based on a noise from a dugout?

I swear, most of the people complaining, have never played upper level baseball.

Just because you have a split second knowledge that it is coming does not ensure success.
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ORAggieFan
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In reply to Flexbone • 9:46p, 11/13/19
Flexbone said:
ORAggieFan said:
TexasRebel said:
So prove that they were using electronic devices to steal signs.

You asked if there were any claims.

If the eye witness testimony isn't enough proof or the videos verifying the noise, then I don't know what you need. But, you asked if anyone claimed they were cheating and that is exactly what happened.


The "eye witness testimony" is disputed. Sounds on a video are hardly rock solid evidence.

As I've said, this thread is yet another example of why our justice system is so screwed up. People immediately believe allegations and assume guilt. Even if this is COMPLETELY TRUE, believing it without reservation at this point just demonstrates what a dumbass someone is.

Who has disputed it? The Astros organization sure hasn't.

If multiple videos show the same thing it's pretty good evidence. Now, if someone shows those sounds consistently when the other team is batting or not directly after the catcher gives us sign, I'd change my opinion.

Also, you keep ignoring you asked if anyone claimed they cheated despite that claim being the entire thread.
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MelvinUdall
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In reply to ORAggieFan • 9:48p, 11/13/19
My man, just stop...let me know when every team is investigated and we can have a discussion.

I can't believe you are this naive.

Edit to add:

Are you willing to have your team followed via video and sound to hear or see what they did in 2017?

This is just dumb.
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aTm2004
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9:52p, 11/13/19
AG
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ORAggieFan
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 9:52p, 11/13/19
MelvinUdall said:
My man, just stop...let me know when every team is investigated and we can have a discussion.

I can't believe you are this naive.


Why am I naive? When did I ever say other teams aren't doing it. I'm confident none of this is new to MLB and why they did what they did before the 2018 season. I would say it's a handful of teams and not the majority. I'm sure in due time we will find out more.
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bigcat22
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 9:54p, 11/13/19
AG
I mean, the "noise" is happening before the pitcher begins his motion home. That's plenty of time for a hitter to hear and know an off speed is coming. Below are a few more examples.


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aTm2004
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9:55p, 11/13/19
AG
Springer sent a beach ball down the middle to the tracks? Say it ain't so!
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Nino Brown
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In reply to ORAggieFan • 9:56p, 11/13/19
Actually, show me a video with a "supposed banging" when a guy actually gets a ****ing hit with multiple videos. Or better yet, when the team is on the road where they actually hit better. This is a witch hunt for the all mighty dollar and nothing more. In fact, if your a Rangers fan you are also the enemy to the east and west coast markets. Particularly anyone in the media that makes money off of web hits and television eyeballs.

How in gods name did Springer ever hit a homerun on the road much less on the road with noise from the crowd before the pitch and in the World Series?
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MelvinUdall
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In reply to bigcat22 • 10:01p, 11/13/19
bigcat22 said:
I mean, the "noise" is happening before the pitcher begins his motion home. That's plenty of time for a hitter to hear and know an off speed is coming. Below are a few more examples.




I am sorry, even knowing the pitch has no predication of success. If this is what is going on with the Astros, I sure heck hope, the same investigation is going on with every other team in MLB.

How about this, the Astros, have the best top to bottom lineup in the MLB, and they took advantage of the same system that every other MLB team did? Seriously, why is that so hard to believe?

Some of y'all are fools if you believe this is not happening in every dugout.

This is almost embarrassing that this is even a discussion.
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Doug Ross
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 10:10p, 11/13/19
AG
MelvinUdall said:
bigcat22 said:
I mean, the "noise" is happening before the pitcher begins his motion home. That's plenty of time for a hitter to hear and know an off speed is coming. Below are a few more examples.




I am sorry, even knowing the pitch has no predication of success. If this is what is going on with the Astros, I sure heck hope, the same investigation is going on with every other team in MLB.

How about this, the Astros, have the best top to bottom lineup in the MLB, and they took advantage of the same system that every other MLB team did? Seriously, why is that so hard to believe?

Some of y'all are fools if you believe this is not happening in every dugout.

This is almost embarrassing that this is even a discussion.
hahaha so you really think if a PROFESSIONAL MLB PLAYER knows the pitch, he doesn't have a higher likelihood of success?
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MelvinUdall
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In reply to Doug Ross • 10:15p, 11/13/19
You're missing the point. I don't know what team you're a fan of, but I am sure your team doesn't want the same scrutiny.

Have you played baseball, at least to college level? I am asking because if you did, do you believe that if some guy was throwing a cutter at 92, that you could hit it?

I am not dismissing the abilities of an all-star hitter, but you are dismissing how hard it is to actually hit what they are hitting.
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ORAggieFan
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In reply to Doug Ross • 10:16p, 11/13/19
Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?
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ORAggieFan
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 10:18p, 11/13/19
MelvinUdall said:
You're missing the point. I don't know what team you're a fan of, but I am sure your team doesn't want the same scrutiny.

Have you played baseball, at least to college level? I am asking because if you did, do you believe that if some guy was throwing a cutter at 92, that you could hit it?

I am not dismissing the abilities of an all-star hitter, but you are dismissing how hard it is to actually hit what they are hitting.


Yeah, they really struggle in BP.....
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MelvinUdall
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In reply to ORAggieFan • 10:18p, 11/13/19
ORAggieFan said:
Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Jesus, the tipping of pitches was the pitchers actually tipping their pitches. So Yu tipping his pitches in game 7 of the 2017 WS was the Astros having a camera in CF of the Chavez Ravine?

Y'all are idiots.
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MelvinUdall
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In reply to ORAggieFan • 10:20p, 11/13/19
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
You're missing the point. I don't know what team you're a fan of, but I am sure your team doesn't want the same scrutiny.

Have you played baseball, at least to college level? I am asking because if you did, do you believe that if some guy was throwing a cutter at 92, that you could hit it?

I am not dismissing the abilities of an all-star hitter, but you are dismissing how hard it is to actually hit what they are hitting.


Yeah, they really struggle in BP.....


Not retort, I will wait for you to give any response that has any facts.

I will ha g up an listen.
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ORAggieFan
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10:20p, 11/13/19
I do love how half the arguments say no proof while the other half basically admits it because other teams do it. If I commit a crime many others commit, it doesn't mean what I did wasn't wrong.
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Doug Ross
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 10:20p, 11/13/19
AG
MelvinUdall said:
You're missing the point. I don't know what team you're a fan of, but I am sure your team doesn't want the same scrutiny.

Have you played baseball, at least to college level? I am asking because if you did, do you believe that if some guy was throwing a cutter at 92, that you could hit it?

I am not dismissing the abilities of an all-star hitter, but you are dismissing how hard it is to actually hit what they are hitting.
are you trolling me

so you think that knowing that a breaking ball is coming, and that swinging more down and out wouldn't be an advantage?

or knowing a fast ball was coming and being able to anticipate a faster bat swing wouldn't be an advantage
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MelvinUdall
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In reply to ORAggieFan • 10:21p, 11/13/19
ORAggieFan said:
Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Do you even know what tipping pitches is or are you just a parrot?
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ORAggieFan
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 10:21p, 11/13/19
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Jesus, the tipping of pitches was the pitchers actually tipping their pitches. So Yu tipping his pitches in game 7 of the 2017 WS was the Astros having a camera in CF of the Chavez Ravine?

Y'all are idiots.

I know this and you just proved my point. I'm not saying them picking up on the pitches was wrong of them. I'm proving if an MLB hitter knows they pitch they are at a massive advantage.
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Nino Brown
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 10:23p, 11/13/19
Leave em alone man. Most of these idiots never played baseball. Literally Justin Verlander could say he was tipping his pitches during every bad WS outing. Only ******* wine and complain though so it ain't happening.
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MelvinUdall
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In reply to Doug Ross • 10:24p, 11/13/19
Doug Ross said:
MelvinUdall said:
You're missing the point. I don't know what team you're a fan of, but I am sure your team doesn't want the same scrutiny.

Have you played baseball, at least to college level? I am asking because if you did, do you believe that if some guy was throwing a cutter at 92, that you could hit it?

I am not dismissing the abilities of an all-star hitter, but you are dismissing how hard it is to actually hit what they are hitting.
are you trolling me

so you think that knowing that a breaking ball is coming, and that swinging more down and out wouldn't be an advantage?

or knowing a fast ball was coming and being able to anticipate a faster bat swing wouldn't be an advantage


Uggh...I can't even believe this is even a discussion. You act like this is just the Astros, it is simply not.
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ORAggieFan
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 10:24p, 11/13/19
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Do you even know what tipping pitches is or are you just a parrot?


You try and argue that when a player knows the pitch they aren't at an advantage and I show an example of where that happened. I know baseball. I know what tipping pitches are. Whether the pitcher gives it to the batter or a loud bang, if an MLB hitter knows the pitch they are at an advantage. It just so happens that one of these is allowed and one isn't.
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MelvinUdall
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In reply to ORAggieFan • 10:26p, 11/13/19
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Jesus, the tipping of pitches was the pitchers actually tipping their pitches. So Yu tipping his pitches in game 7 of the 2017 WS was the Astros having a camera in CF of the Chavez Ravine?

Y'all are idiots.

I know this and you just proved my point. I'm not saying them picking up on the pitches was wrong of them. I'm proving if an MLB hitter knows they pitch they are at a massive advantage.


No, you moved the goalpost from stealing signs to tipping pitchers.
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Doug Ross
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 10:26p, 11/13/19
AG
MelvinUdall said:
Doug Ross said:
MelvinUdall said:
You're missing the point. I don't know what team you're a fan of, but I am sure your team doesn't want the same scrutiny.

Have you played baseball, at least to college level? I am asking because if you did, do you believe that if some guy was throwing a cutter at 92, that you could hit it?

I am not dismissing the abilities of an all-star hitter, but you are dismissing how hard it is to actually hit what they are hitting.
are you trolling me

so you think that knowing that a breaking ball is coming, and that swinging more down and out wouldn't be an advantage?

or knowing a fast ball was coming and being able to anticipate a faster bat swing wouldn't be an advantage


Uggh...I can't even believe this is even a discussion. You act like this is just the Astros, it is simply not.

so me the video of the other teams using technology off the field
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ORAggieFan
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 10:26p, 11/13/19
MelvinUdall said:
Doug Ross said:
MelvinUdall said:
You're missing the point. I don't know what team you're a fan of, but I am sure your team doesn't want the same scrutiny.

Have you played baseball, at least to college level? I am asking because if you did, do you believe that if some guy was throwing a cutter at 92, that you could hit it?

I am not dismissing the abilities of an all-star hitter, but you are dismissing how hard it is to actually hit what they are hitting.
are you trolling me

so you think that knowing that a breaking ball is coming, and that swinging more down and out wouldn't be an advantage?

or knowing a fast ball was coming and being able to anticipate a faster bat swing wouldn't be an advantage


Uggh...I can't even believe this is even a discussion. You act like this is just the Astros, it is simply not.


You argue it's not an advantage and then you argue every team is doing it. If it is not an advantage, why are they all doing it?
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ORAggieFan
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 10:28p, 11/13/19
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Jesus, the tipping of pitches was the pitchers actually tipping their pitches. So Yu tipping his pitches in game 7 of the 2017 WS was the Astros having a camera in CF of the Chavez Ravine?

Y'all are idiots.

I know this and you just proved my point. I'm not saying them picking up on the pitches was wrong of them. I'm proving if an MLB hitter knows they pitch they are at a massive advantage.


No, you moved the goalpost from stealing signs to tipping pitchers.

It is the batter knowing the pitch and nearly the same time. No matter how they get it, that is an advantage.

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Nino Brown
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In reply to ORAggieFan • 10:31p, 11/13/19
Now your saying that every hitter isn't looking for signs of what's coming from the pitcher before he throws it even if it directly from the pitcher? You certainly don't have to answer the question now about having played baseball or not ****ing idiot.
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MelvinUdall
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In reply to ORAggieFan • 10:34p, 11/13/19
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Jesus, the tipping of pitches was the pitchers actually tipping their pitches. So Yu tipping his pitches in game 7 of the 2017 WS was the Astros having a camera in CF of the Chavez Ravine?

Y'all are idiots.

I know this and you just proved my point. I'm not saying them picking up on the pitches was wrong of them. I'm proving if an MLB hitter knows they pitch they are at a massive advantage.


No, you moved the goalpost from stealing signs to tipping pitchers.

It is the batter knowing the pitch and nearly the same time. No matter how they get it, that is an advantage.



Again, are the Astros the only one? Or do the Astros, with above average talent, succeed because of the talent and technology?

I will hang up and listen.
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ORAggieFan
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 10:38p, 11/13/19
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Jesus, the tipping of pitches was the pitchers actually tipping their pitches. So Yu tipping his pitches in game 7 of the 2017 WS was the Astros having a camera in CF of the Chavez Ravine?

Y'all are idiots.

I know this and you just proved my point. I'm not saying them picking up on the pitches was wrong of them. I'm proving if an MLB hitter knows they pitch they are at a massive advantage.


No, you moved the goalpost from stealing signs to tipping pitchers.

It is the batter knowing the pitch and nearly the same time. No matter how they get it, that is an advantage.



Again, are the Astros the only one? Or do the Astros, with above average talent, succeed because of the talent and technology?

I will hang up and listen.


I've said the Astros are probably not the only one. I said they are the ones we have proof of. I said there are probably others but I'd guess a few rather than all.

I've never commented on the talent but I'd agree the Astros have great talent. I'm not saying they wouldn't have won the World Series without doing what they did. I have no idea. I also have no proof they did this in the playoffs.

All I've said is they evidence points to what is being accused is likely true and they benefited from it. Nothing more.
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ORAggieFan
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In reply to Nino Brown • 10:39p, 11/13/19
Nino Brown said:
Now your saying that every hitter isn't looking for signs of what's coming from the pitcher before he throws it even if it directly from the pitcher? You certainly don't have to answer the question now about having played baseball or not ****ing idiot.

No, I didn't say that at all. That would be stupid to say. Why would you in any way think I said that?
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MelvinUdall
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In reply to ORAggieFan • 10:49p, 11/13/19
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Jesus, the tipping of pitches was the pitchers actually tipping their pitches. So Yu tipping his pitches in game 7 of the 2017 WS was the Astros having a camera in CF of the Chavez Ravine?

Y'all are idiots.

I know this and you just proved my point. I'm not saying them picking up on the pitches was wrong of them. I'm proving if an MLB hitter knows they pitch they are at a massive advantage.


No, you moved the goalpost from stealing signs to tipping pitchers.

It is the batter knowing the pitch and nearly the same time. No matter how they get it, that is an advantage.



Again, are the Astros the only one? Or do the Astros, with above average talent, succeed because of the talent and technology?

I will hang up and listen.


I've said the Astros are probably not the only one. I said they are the ones we have proof of. I said there are probably others but I'd guess a few rather than all.

I've never commented on the talent but I'd agree the Astros have great talent. I'm not saying they wouldn't have won the World Series without doing what they did. I have no idea. I also have no proof they did this in the playoffs.

All I've said is they evidence points to what is being accused is likely true and they benefited from it. Nothing more.


I think we will have to agree to disagree. I want to make sur that you understand that I am not defending Astros, I am defending the BS assault like the Astros are the only one, like the Patriots and deflate gate. I am not saying the Astros are the Patriots, but it is not shocking as they are breaking records, players and other are tearing them down.

I am officially done with this discussion...not conceding...the circular argument will never be solved, plus I need to sleep.

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ORAggieFan
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 10:52p, 11/13/19
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
TexasRebel said:
So prove that they were using electronic devices to steal signs.

You asked if there were any claims.

If the eye witness testimony isn't enough proof or the videos verifying the noise, then I don't know what you need. But, you asked if anyone claimed they were cheating and that is exactly what happened.


Have you ever played baseball? Do you understand the reaction time to hit a baseball based on a noise from a dugout?

I swear, most of the people complaining, have never played upper level baseball.

Just because you have a split second knowledge that it is coming does not ensure success.


You 100% argued it is not an advantage yet finish with every team is doing it. Which is it? If it is not an advantage why are teams doing it? Simple question.
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Doug Ross
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In reply to MelvinUdall • 11:07p, 11/13/19
AG
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
MelvinUdall said:
ORAggieFan said:
Yeah, I mean the tipping of pitches in the World Series was just good hitters hitting, right?


Jesus, the tipping of pitches was the pitchers actually tipping their pitches. So Yu tipping his pitches in game 7 of the 2017 WS was the Astros having a camera in CF of the Chavez Ravine?

Y'all are idiots.

I know this and you just proved my point. I'm not saying them picking up on the pitches was wrong of them. I'm proving if an MLB hitter knows they pitch they are at a massive advantage.


No, you moved the goalpost from stealing signs to tipping pitchers.

It is the batter knowing the pitch and nearly the same time. No matter how they get it, that is an advantage.



Again, are the Astros the only one? Or do the Astros, with above average talent, succeed because of the talent and technology?

I will hang up and listen.
the astros cheated with cameras, they got caught, it is illegal per MLB, and they should pay the price
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TheAngelFlight
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11:12p, 11/13/19
Quote:
I am officially done with this discussion...not conceding...the circular argument will never be solved, plus I need to sleep.
Don't confuse "circular" with "incoherent."

If you want to argue every team does it so this isn't news. Great. Go for it. If you want to argue knowing pitches isn't an advantage. Great. Go for it.

You're mixing it all together and its coming out a jumbled mess.
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TheAngelFlight
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In reply to TexasRebel • 11:21p, 11/13/19
TexasRebel said:
TheAngelFlight said:
You're really going to double down that a square isn't a rectangle? I respect the conviction.
Show me anywhere in history that I've made this claim.
See below. While Melvin's extensive career in high level baseball may have him convinced everyone is stealing signs so to not gain an advantage, the below attempt at distinction is absurd. Stealing signs is 100% part of "get[ing] an edge" and within the intent of the rules and policies.

Quote:
Except the prohibition is against using electronics to get an edge, not against reading signs.


And yes, I know..."huff, huff, chuff, chuff, prove it."
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