Writers Guild strike 2023

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TCTTS
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In reply to LMCane • 6:49a, 7/14/23
AG
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How does anyone still believe in "free markets"? I guess the answer to that is due to unfettered Chicago School economics teaching for the past four decades. Go read Smith's The Wealth of Nations in entirety (if you can, since "free markets" have worked to erode attention spans); you'll be shocked to discover how poorly it, among many other works, has been taught.


Wtf are you doing attacking me? Do you have an actual thought on this or are you just going to point me to a classical economics book screaming "free markets are a lie!".

Studios can get the same work done without writing rooms and minimums. So why pay?

You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. They CAN'T get the same work done, and that's why this whole thing is falling apart.
Taylor Sheridan LITERALLY stated that Hollywood studios tried to force multiple writers on him and he told them to F off and he did it himself.

so you are not correct.

No, he didn't. He LITERALLY said *if* they try. As in a hypothetical...

Quote:
"If they tell me, 'You're going to have to write a check for $540,000 to four people to sit in a room that you never have to meet,' then that's between the studio and the guild. But if I have to check in creatively with others for a story I've wholly built in my brain, that would probably be the end of me telling TV stories."

He's one of maybe three or four TV writers who writes every last episode himself, and he's literally the only one who has pushed back on writer room minimums. Meaning, out of thousands of writers, he's the only one who actively wants to do it all himself. The WGA has consulted with every other big-name showrunner, especially the other couple who write everything themselves, and none of them have any problem with writer room minimums. In fact, they encourage it.

So considering Sheridan is only one man, the model remains broken regardless, and your point remains pointless.

In other words, yet again, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Also... are you ever not disgruntled, and seemingly angry at the world at all times?
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Wrec86 Ag
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In reply to TCTTS • 7:14a, 7/14/23
TCTTS said:


On top of that, what these guilds are asking for is nothing to these studios. It's less than 3% of the studios' annual profits. And yet the studios are literally *telling* these people that they'd rather destroy them than give up that 3%. That the LIFEBLOOD of the industry is essentially meaningless to them. On no planet, under no economic system, is that not evil.



The fact that you think 3% of annual profits is meaningless tells me all I need to know about your business acumen.
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In reply to Wrec86 Ag • 7:15a, 7/14/23
AG
You know exactly what I mean. Of course it's not "nothing," but it won't come close to hindering them in any way. In other words, they can more than afford it.
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Wrec86 Ag
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In reply to TCTTS • 7:44a, 7/14/23
TCTTS said:
You know exactly what I mean. Of course it's not "nothing," but it won't come close to hindering them in any way. In other words, they can more than afford it.


You literally said they were meaningless.

If my company "lost" 3% of our annual profits, multiple heads would roll.
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In reply to Wrec86 Ag • 7:53a, 7/14/23
AG
You must not know what the word "literally" means, because I did not, in fact, literally use the word "meaningless" in regards to the 3% figure. I said that what the *studios* felt the writers and actors are is "meaningless." And when I said "nothing," I was CLEARLY using a common figure of speech to imply that the studios could afford to pay these people what they're asking for, knowing, obviously, that they would likely meet in the middle, and be spending even less. You *literally* quoted my post where said all of that plain as day.
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wangus12
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In reply to TCTTS • 7:58a, 7/14/23
AG
TCTTS said:
Question. Do writers and actors want those numbers revealed either. If they are way, way down wouldn't that lead to investors pulling out of making tv/movies for streaming services and then lead to even less jobs to go around for the writers and actors?
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tysker
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8:09a, 7/14/23
AG
These concerns have been an issue with so many white-collar, generally college-educated, industries and it was only amplified by covid. What is a 'livable wage' and where should the 'writer's room' (or office, war room, HQ, etc) be located? A livable wage is different for an employee in LA versus, or SLC, or Tulsa, or Atlanta, or Long Island NY. And does the writer's room need to be in LA or can in mostly virtual?

Unions work great for labor that is repeatable, standardized, and captured in a city or region. Clearly, the WGA wants to hold onto the old ways, but frankly, they will be losing ground on wages, especially when accessing the local cost of living in places like LA and NYC. We've already seen this issue on wall street. The old fashion ways of NYC and Stamford are long gone. There is an ongoing push for finance firms to move large segments of their workforce to remote work and to the DFW area specifically because of the lower cost of living and better quality of life for employees, which also translates into lower wages and office expenses for management.

It's a problem so many of us have: take a low salary + low benefits + higher performance bonus and huge potential upside via options/equity or a higher salary + better benefits + lower bonus structures and little to no significant upside on the backend.
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In reply to wangus12 • 8:12a, 7/14/23
AG
wangus12 said:
TCTTS said:
Question. Do writers and actors want those numbers revealed either. If they are way, way down wouldn't that lead to investors pulling out of making tv/movies for streaming services and then lead to even less jobs to go around for the writers and actors?


It goes both ways. Some numbers are indeed lower, and yes, would affect the stock price, advertisers, etc. But some are also incredibly, ridiculously high. And if, say, an actor or a showrunner knows 80 million people watch their series on Netflix, they're going to start asking for way more than they're currently getting paid.
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Sea Speed
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In reply to Capybara • 8:20a, 7/14/23
AG
Capybara said:
Yeah, they want to preserve their ability to write scripts with others with guarantees, instead of becoming the equivalent of Uber and Lyft drivers, DoorDash delivery drivers, Fiverr workers, etc. If this profession further moves to the latter mode, then everything will be written by the most boring people to ever exist, or LLM trained on previous scripts with adjustments by the former.


The point of my question, which you completely missed and decided to assume was something else, was to find out if someone thought that the strike motives were actually anything other than self preservation. At no point did I express an opinion one way or another as to the merits of the strike, yet you have been arguing against some imaginary position I've taken.
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In reply to TCTTS • 8:34a, 7/14/23
AG
TCTTS said:
wangus12 said:
TCTTS said:
Question. Do writers and actors want those numbers revealed either. If they are way, way down wouldn't that lead to investors pulling out of making tv/movies for streaming services and then lead to even less jobs to go around for the writers and actors?


It goes both ways. Some numbers are indeed lower, and yes, would affect the stock price, advertisers, etc. But some are also incredibly, ridiculously high. And if, say, an actor or a showrunner knows 80 million people watch their series on Netflix, they're going to start asking for way more than they're currently getting paid.
But wouldn't everyone working on the product also ask for more money?
Using this website (https://stephenfollows.com/how-many-people-work-on-a-hollywood-film/) films can have well over 1,000 credited employees. If the product has 80MM views and 1k credited workers, its about 80k views per worker. A Netflix sub is about $180 per year per subscription (not viewer), so when you break it down its still only an increase of a few dollars on a per viewing minute by worker basis.

And should the actors get paid more than the FX guys or editors that actually make the actors look and appear better on screen?
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nai06
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In reply to tysker • 8:42a, 7/14/23
AG
tysker said:
These concerns have been an issue with so many white-collar, generally college-educated, industries and it was only amplified by covid. What is a 'livable wage' and where should the 'writer's room' (or office, war room, HQ, etc) be located? A livable wage is different for an employee in LA versus, or SLC, or Tulsa, or Atlanta, or Long Island NY. And does the writer's room need to be in LA or can in mostly virtual?

Unions work great for labor that is repeatable, standardized, and captured in a city or region. Clearly, the WGA wants to hold onto the old ways, but frankly, they will be losing ground on wages, especially when accessing the local cost of living in places like LA and NYC. We've already seen this issue on wall street. The old fashion ways of NYC and Stamford are long gone. There is an ongoing push for finance firms to move large segments of their workforce to remote work and to the DFW area specifically because of the lower cost of living and better quality of life for employees, which also translates into lower wages and office expenses for management.

It's a problem so many of us have: take a low salary + low benefits + higher performance bonus and huge potential upside via options/equity or a higher salary + better benefits + lower bonus structures and little to no significant upside on the backend.


There already are virtual writers rooms, some of my friends have been in. Their feedback is that it's not always productive when you aren't physically in the room as other people .
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In reply to tysker • 8:45a, 7/14/23
AG
tysker said:
TCTTS said:
wangus12 said:
TCTTS said:
Question. Do writers and actors want those numbers revealed either. If they are way, way down wouldn't that lead to investors pulling out of making tv/movies for streaming services and then lead to even less jobs to go around for the writers and actors?


It goes both ways. Some numbers are indeed lower, and yes, would affect the stock price, advertisers, etc. But some are also incredibly, ridiculously high. And if, say, an actor or a showrunner knows 80 million people watch their series on Netflix, they're going to start asking for way more than they're currently getting paid.
But wouldn't everyone working on the product also ask for more money?
Using this website (https://stephenfollows.com/how-many-people-work-on-a-hollywood-film/) films can have well over 1,000 credited employees. If the product has 80MM views and 1k credited workers, its about 80k views per worker. A Netflix sub is about $180 per year per subscription (not viewer), so when you break it down its still only an increase of a few dollars on a per viewing minute by worker basis.

And should the actors get paid more than the FX guys or editors that actually make the actors look and appear better on screen?


Most jobs in the industry simply aren't performance-based, in terms of audience size. For whatever reason, that's just not how it works. Directors, writers, producers, and actors are the only ones whose contracts can at times be performance-based.
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In reply to nai06 • 8:48a, 7/14/23
AG
nai06 said:
tysker said:
These concerns have been an issue with so many white-collar, generally college-educated, industries and it was only amplified by covid. What is a 'livable wage' and where should the 'writer's room' (or office, war room, HQ, etc) be located? A livable wage is different for an employee in LA versus, or SLC, or Tulsa, or Atlanta, or Long Island NY. And does the writer's room need to be in LA or can in mostly virtual?

Unions work great for labor that is repeatable, standardized, and captured in a city or region. Clearly, the WGA wants to hold onto the old ways, but frankly, they will be losing ground on wages, especially when accessing the local cost of living in places like LA and NYC. We've already seen this issue on wall street. The old fashion ways of NYC and Stamford are long gone. There is an ongoing push for finance firms to move large segments of their workforce to remote work and to the DFW area specifically because of the lower cost of living and better quality of life for employees, which also translates into lower wages and office expenses for management.

It's a problem so many of us have: take a low salary + low benefits + higher performance bonus and huge potential upside via options/equity or a higher salary + better benefits + lower bonus structures and little to no significant upside on the backend.


There already are virtual writers rooms, some of my friends have been in. Their feedback is that it's not always productive when you aren't physically in the room as other people .


Also, writers NEED to be on set. Because a writer's job isn't *just* writing. In TV, it's writing, working with actors, producing, editing, and sometimes even directing.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to TCTTS • 8:48a, 7/14/23
AG
Residuals
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 8:52a, 7/14/23
AG
So you don't think asking for residuals, which have been a core competent of the industry since the 1950s, is reasonable? Seriously?
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tysker
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In reply to nai06 • 8:57a, 7/14/23
AG
nai06 said:
tysker said:
These concerns have been an issue with so many white-collar, generally college-educated, industries and it was only amplified by covid. What is a 'livable wage' and where should the 'writer's room' (or office, war room, HQ, etc) be located? A livable wage is different for an employee in LA versus, or SLC, or Tulsa, or Atlanta, or Long Island NY. And does the writer's room need to be in LA or can in mostly virtual?

Unions work great for labor that is repeatable, standardized, and captured in a city or region. Clearly, the WGA wants to hold onto the old ways, but frankly, they will be losing ground on wages, especially when accessing the local cost of living in places like LA and NYC. We've already seen this issue on wall street. The old fashion ways of NYC and Stamford are long gone. There is an ongoing push for finance firms to move large segments of their workforce to remote work and to the DFW area specifically because of the lower cost of living and better quality of life for employees, which also translates into lower wages and office expenses for management.

It's a problem so many of us have: take a low salary + low benefits + higher performance bonus and huge potential upside via options/equity or a higher salary + better benefits + lower bonus structures and little to no significant upside on the backend.


There already are virtual writers rooms, some of my friends have been in. Their feedback is that it's not always productive when you aren't physically in the room as other people .
But enough of the time it is. Plus people like working from home and remotely.

That being said, imo, 'production' from an accounting and MBA perspective, is much harder to define in the arts than in other industries. Its like improv, you can produce great results in the first 5 mins and then also nothing of use after 2 hours.
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Claude!
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:05a, 7/14/23
TCTTS said:


Most jobs in the industry simply aren't performance-based, in terms of audience size. For whatever reason, that's just not how it works. Directors, writers, producers, and actors are the only ones whose contracts can at times be performance-based.


Porn stars, too.
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In reply to Claude! • 9:06a, 7/14/23
oragator
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10:38a, 7/14/23
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oragator
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10:47a, 7/14/23
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Sea Speed
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In reply to oragator • 11:01a, 7/14/23
AG
I dont understand her complaint. She wants lifelong health coverage for work she did prior to being an adult? I may be missing it but it sounds like this lady just wants to be a part of what is going on. Reminds of how in high school when a kid died tragically suddenly everyone in the school was magically that kids best friend and tries to make the situation about them.
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guadalupeag
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In reply to oragator • 11:20a, 7/14/23
I don't have a dog in this fight, but tweets like this just make me roll my eyes. Did this actress not have an agent? Where was the union while she was being so underpaid? And please stop hiding behind my friend that this totally happened to. Either name names or keep it to yourself.
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tysker
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In reply to Sea Speed • 11:33a, 7/14/23
AG
Also insurance =/ healthcare.
These arguments are lasting unintended consequences of tying medical insurance to employment.
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In reply to Sea Speed • 11:52a, 7/14/23
In reading around, I think the SAG healthcare is annual, you have to make a certain amount to qualify for that year based on previous 12 months earnings, think she is saying that based on the streaming pay structure there wasn't a year she qualified for it. I am not really taking sides on these,, just interesting to see their POV.
One more from JC, though this has always been a thing.,,

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Sea Speed
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In reply to tysker • 12:04p, 7/14/23
AG
I know that and I meant insurance not Healthcare although I took a word from each, unintended.
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amercer
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12:16p, 7/14/23
AG
It's been mentioned above, but the problem is that the tech companies that have driven the recent boom, don't really need their entertainment arms to succeed. Apple is a 3 trillion dollar company. Its TV business is a rounding error. So there isn't much leverage to be had for the writers or actors. But the traditional studios are in an even worse spot because they are competing with Apple etc. So Disney, Universal etc HAVE to make money on movies and TV and they are going up against competitors who don't.
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tysker
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In reply to Sea Speed • 12:28p, 7/14/23
AG
I'm with ya; that line was more intended for the tweet
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maroon barchetta
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12:53p, 7/14/23
Is the poster Capybara the same person as the Twitter user Capybaroness???
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Iowaggie
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In reply to amercer • 1:29p, 7/14/23
AG
amercer said:
It's been mentioned above, but the problem is that the tech companies that have driven the recent boom, don't really need their entertainment arms to succeed. Apple is a 3 trillion dollar company. Its TV business is a rounding error. So there isn't much leverage to be had for the writers or actors. But the traditional studios are in an even worse spot because they are competing with Apple etc. So Disney, Universal etc HAVE to make money on movies and TV and they are going up against competitors who don't.


I'm surprised that professional sports leagues don't have more work stoppage because the ownership of the Yankees compared to the Rays, or the Lakers compared to the Memphis Grizzlies, is so different that they have to come to some near consensus amongst themselves before they can even negotiate with a large group of athletes. with such diversity of capital in ownership, it's a surprises me there isn't more stoppages. But at least those guys are in their own unique league playing their own sport.

But AMPTP seems like a collection of NFL, MLS, MiLB and WNBA owners along with State Park Rangers and carnival workers, most of which are doing their own cuts while others flourish, that I just could see how tough consensus would be even before trying to come to an agreement with these other parties.

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nai06
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In reply to Sea Speed • 2:45p, 7/14/23
AG
Sea Speed said:
I dont understand her complaint. She wants lifelong health coverage for work she did prior to being an adult? I may be missing it but it sounds like this lady just wants to be a part of what is going on. Reminds of how in high school when a kid died tragically suddenly everyone in the school was magically that kids best friend and tries to make the situation about them.


I can only speak to WGA matters because that's what we've had in the past.

To qualify for WGA health insurance you have to make at least 41k or more in the past 4 quarters in order to qualify. You then have the next 4 quarters to qualify again. Because companies can drag their feet in reporting, there are often gaps in coverage and it can take another quarter for them to recertify your coverage.
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TXAG 05
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3:05p, 7/14/23
AG
TCTTS-Are writers paid a salary as long as the tv show/movie is in production or are they paid per script? Or does every show pay differently?
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In reply to TXAG 05 • 3:53p, 7/14/23
AG
TXAG 05 said:
TCTTS-Are writers paid a salary as long as the tv show/movie is in production or are they paid per script? Or does every show pay differently?


Traditionally, TV writers are paid per week. So if someone is hired for a 15-week job, their pay is based on those 15 weeks of work, not the amount of scripts they write. That said, for whatever scripts/episodes their name is actually on during that time, that's where residuals traditionally kick in, and they get residual checks per episode.

This is, of course, the model that Big Tech hast mostly broken, though, and the writers are fighting to keep some semblance of.
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In reply to Iowaggie • 3:59p, 7/14/23
AG
Iowaggie said:
amercer said:
It's been mentioned above, but the problem is that the tech companies that have driven the recent boom, don't really need their entertainment arms to succeed. Apple is a 3 trillion dollar company. Its TV business is a rounding error. So there isn't much leverage to be had for the writers or actors. But the traditional studios are in an even worse spot because they are competing with Apple etc. So Disney, Universal etc HAVE to make money on movies and TV and they are going up against competitors who don't.


I'm surprised that professional sports leagues don't have more work stoppage because the ownership of the Yankees compared to the Rays, or the Lakers compared to the Memphis Grizzlies, is so different that they have to come to some near consensus amongst themselves before they can even negotiate with a large group of athletes. with such diversity of capital in ownership, it's a surprises me there isn't more stoppages. But at least those guys are in their own unique league playing their own sport.

But AMPTP seems like a collection of NFL, MLS, MiLB and WNBA owners along with State Park Rangers and carnival workers, most of which are doing their own cuts while others flourish, that I just could see how tough consensus would be even before trying to come to an agreement with these other parties.



This is why a lot of people think there is going to be some kind of eventual fracture in the AMPTP. Check out those tweets I posted earlier today in reference to this. As this work stoppage goes on, the traditional studio are going to get far more desperate than Amazon, Apple, and even Netflix. To the point where they might very splinter off and make deals with guilds long before the Big Tech companies ever do.
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BoydCrowder13
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6:27p, 7/14/23
I love the actors chiming in. As you get older, you realize how little these people understand about economics, politics or anything outside of a script.
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amercer
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In reply to BoydCrowder13 • 6:32p, 7/14/23
AG
I think the ones chiming in realize that they are 90% of the reason that the whole industry exists. Good for them standing up to try to get something for all the other folk.

Also this is a multi trillion dollar industry, where people are arguing about how the profits should be split. Just because you have some opinion on that doesn't mean that the people actually working in that industry are bad at economics….
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