Thread. https://t.co/l4prbXs79j
— Germain Lussier (@GermainLussier) May 2, 2023
Writers Guild strike 2023
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Last: 9 mo ago by uujm
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, so take this question as coming from a dummy, but...
Why do post-greenlight writers room need 1 writer PER episode? Ie on Stranger Things 5, say there's 8 episodes, they would need 8 separate writers (and not just the Duffer Bros) on that season?
Why do post-greenlight writers room need 1 writer PER episode? Ie on Stranger Things 5, say there's 8 episodes, they would need 8 separate writers (and not just the Duffer Bros) on that season?
As I said before the writer's room requirements don't make a lot of sense to me either. The number seems pretty arbitrary. I could understand some equation though: You need X writers per hour of scripted TV per week before shooting starts. Then Y number of writers per hour once shooting has started.Brian Earl Spilner said:
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, so take this question as coming from a dummy, but...
Why do post-greenlight writers room need 1 writer PER episode? Ie on Stranger Things 5, say there's 8 episodes, they would need 8 separate writers (and not just the Duffer Bros) on that season?
But that's probably the difference between an engineer and a writer.
Again, probably the engineer in me, but a yearly discussion on the advance and use of emerging technology sounds pretty smart. What if 60 years ago the writers' guild had demanded that all writing be done on typewriters because computers would replace them.TCTTS said:Is there a more insulting response to a proposal than "What if, every year, we made you watch a Powerpoint about how we disagree?" pic.twitter.com/HKrN45sN2x
— Aaron Fullerton (@AaronFullerton) May 2, 2023
I sincerely don't understand anyone rooting for AI to replace jobs, not that anyone is this thread is doing as much. I always roll my eyes when the arguments comparing it to social media, even if just talking about "entertainment value", inevitably pop up too. How does anyone not realize by now that social media as it now exists flattens any personality or voice? It's remarkable how much worse every single platform has become (save for YouTube which has become only marginally worse) in the past decade. They, with the possible exception of YT, were only ever supposed to be something irreverent or ephemeral. Obviously "market forces" erode this possibility with time.
my guess is its a symptom of good ol' boy network + union requirements. to tie in TC's twitter thread from above:Quad Dog said:As I said before the writer's room requirements don't make a lot of sense to me either. The number seems pretty arbitrary. I could understand some equation though: You need X writers per hour of scripted TV per week before shooting starts.Brian Earl Spilner said:
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, so take this question as coming from a dummy, but...
Why do post-greenlight writers room need 1 writer PER episode? Ie on Stranger Things 5, say there's 8 episodes, they would need 8 separate writers (and not just the Duffer Bros) on that season?
But that's probably the difference between an engineer and a writer.
6. In order to produce that much, they lost a lot of money, saturated the market, overwhelmed the viewers, and put writers on a path to a situation where the only ones who will be able to afford to write for them are the people who don’t actually need to work. (Also bad.)
— Joe Keohane (@JoeKeohane) May 2, 2023
The reality is probably that AI is only going to grow and get better. In 30 years there might be people who adapted to using AI and still have work, and people who fought it and their jobs no longer exist. The writers' guild seems to be choosing the latter.Capybara said:
I sincerely don't understand anyone rooting for AI to replace jobs, not that anyone is this thread is doing as much. I always roll my eyes when the arguments comparing it to social media, even if just talking about "entertainment value", inevitably pop up too. How does anyone not realize by now that social media as it now exists flattens any personality or voice? It's remarkable how much worse every single platform has become (save for YouTube which has become only marginally worse) in the past decade. They, with the possible exception of YT, were only ever supposed to be something irreverent or ephemeral. Obviously "market forces" erode this possibility with time.
What does AI/ML/LLM growing and getting better entail in entertainment and the arts?
If these tools can't be incorporated without the diminishing of personalities, voices and work, then we'll see a stark rise in depression. Zoomers (of which I'm on the boundary) are the most depressed generation we know of because spending too much time on social media hammers an illusion of emotion, communication, and image into your self-esteem. There has to be those who damage themselves by doing this since time on the platforms is incentivized for the benefit of our wealthiest.
Everyone needs to understand that depression is living death. If the digital world necessitates a baseline depression rate higher than we've ever known, largely among the youngest generation and successive generations, then we're killing our own people just to be entertained. Remember, entertainment and art often aren't one in the same.
If these tools can't be incorporated without the diminishing of personalities, voices and work, then we'll see a stark rise in depression. Zoomers (of which I'm on the boundary) are the most depressed generation we know of because spending too much time on social media hammers an illusion of emotion, communication, and image into your self-esteem. There has to be those who damage themselves by doing this since time on the platforms is incentivized for the benefit of our wealthiest.
Everyone needs to understand that depression is living death. If the digital world necessitates a baseline depression rate higher than we've ever known, largely among the youngest generation and successive generations, then we're killing our own people just to be entertained. Remember, entertainment and art often aren't one in the same.
Brian Earl Spilner said:
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, so take this question as coming from a dummy, but...
Why do post-greenlight writers room need 1 writer PER episode? Ie on Stranger Things 5, say there's 8 episodes, they would need 8 separate writers (and not just the Duffer Bros) on that season?
I'm not sure exactly how it works on Stranger Things, specifically, but the overall issue is that on a lot of these shows now, where one or two people end up writing all eight-to-ten episodes, they first have a "mini-room" with a staff of, say, five-to-ten writers, who meet for two weeks to outline the entire season. That support staff of writers is there to bounce ideas off of, and lend their expertise, but they get paid next to nothing, and again, it's only a two-week gig. Then, the one or two head writers take everything that was outlined with the group, and go off and write all eight-to-ten episodes, leaving the support staff in the dust, with no credits, no experience, and no way to work their way up the ladder. Instead, they're just hopping from low-paying two-week gig to low-paying two-week gig, which isn't even remotely sustainable in terms of a career, but also for the studios, who are promoting a system that doesn't cultivate new talent or experience.
Which is not at all how it was before streaming.
It used to be, those five-to-ten writers in a writers room were employed for the duration of the series, and not only each wrote various episodes that season, but were involved in pre-production, production, editing, etc, gaining all kinds of valuable experience. And sure, the showrunner had the final say, ultimately ended up polishing all the scripts themselves, and could even take a co-writing credit on every last episode if they wanted (for instance, that's what Matthew Weiner did on all episodes of Mad Men, even if he only contributed 10% to any given episode). But it was a way more collaborative process, one that allowed staff writers the experience and opportunity to prove themselves and eventually work their way to up showrunner on their own series. Or maybe even take over for a showrunner in season four or whenever, if the showrunner decided to leave and start a new series.
Under the current system, however, that's all next to impossible.
In other words, what the WGA is proposing is simply a return to the way it used to be, with a staff of writers who stay on throughout the duration of a series, thus earning enough to make a livable wage, and thus gaining the experience and the credits needed for the industry to be able to cultivate new talent that will lead future shows.
Otherwise, the whole system eventually implodes.
Now, in the case of the the Duffer Bros, my understanding is that if they so choose, under this new proposal, they can still write all eight episodes of a season themselves. That's totally their prerogative. Same as what Nic Pizzollato did on True Detective back in the day. No one forced extra writers on him, no one stopped him from basically being like, "I got this." What the WGA is saying the Duffer Brothers or Pizzolatto CAN'T do, however - again, as far as I understand it - is first have a mini-room, and THEN go off and write all eight episodes themselves. Basically, the WGA's primary goal is the complete eradication of the mini-room. Either a writer writes the whole season themselves, without the help of a mini-room, or they have a staff of writers the entire season, like it used to be (and still is, in a number of instances). But no more of this in-between sh*t that gives the streamers the best of both worlds, but leaves the vast majority of writers credit-less and unable to support themselves/make a career out of writing.
My guess is, though, this will ultimately be one of the things the WGA has to compromise on. I do agree that forcing eight writers on an eight-episode season is probably a bit much (even though that number was the standard/average for years). So maybe that number eventually settles at, say, four or six writers. Either way, what's pissing people off is that the studios didn't even offer a counter. They didn't say "How about four writers instead?" They basically gave the WGA the finger and said we're still doing mini-rooms whether you like it or not. But what the studios will soon find out is that mini-rooms are the probably the biggest issue for the WGA, and they're not going to back down on it.
So the amount of content rising at an exponential level every year is giving them less credit than it was before? That's nuts.
BINGO.
I know nothing, but I'd think the guild could handle this in house too without negotiating it. If you want to be a part of the guild, then don't accept two-week "mini-room" jobs. If there is no one taking the "mini-room" jobs, then they won't exist. I guess that's assuming there is some sort of up front contactQuote:
where one or two people end up writing all eight-to-ten episodes, they first have a "mini-room" with a staff of, say, five-to-ten writers, who meet for two weeks to outline the entire season. That support staff of writers is there to bounce ideas off of, and lend their expertise, but they get paid next to nothing, and again, it's only a two-week gig.
But when those are the only jobs, you're essentially telling your people not to work and thus to pack it in/go find another career.
Which is what they are doing right now by striking.
Right. But it's a more controlled, forceful response, one that's attempting to solve many issues, not just one, unofficially.
TCTTS said:
But when those are the only jobs, you're essentially telling your people not to work and thus to pack it in/go find another career.
Some Junkie Cosmonaut
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AG
TCTTS said:"Its not the writers who will be grinding Hollywood to a halt. Its the studios. Its the network. Its the 6 corporations who own 90% of the media industry, have received record profits, and shared none of it with any workers across any part of their machine. Its a systemic issue.” https://t.co/hMGmZfyFzw
— Alex O’Keefe 🌻 (@AlexOKeefe1994) April 18, 2023
Quote:
"Its not the writers who will be grinding Hollywood to a halt. Its the studios. Its the network. Its the 6 corporations who own 90% of the media industry, have received record profits, and shared none of it with any workers across any part of their machine. Its a systemic issue."
This has been a big issue for a while (outside of this strike). Hopefully this shutdown will direct more attention and thought to this problem.
Know Your Enemy said:Rudy Sarzo?HollywoodBQ said:A friend of mine went 6x Platinum in 1983 on an album that I guarantee you've banged your head to.Quad Dog said:
At the risk of sounding like an uneducated dummy, because I am, can anyone explain what is so sacred about the writer's room?
Also residuals sounds like a bad way to get paid. Sure they are great if your show is a hit and runs for years, but if not, you aren't getting paid. I think I'd want more money upfront then the risk of no to little residuals. And basing your residuals on subscriber count for the streaming service is just dumb for everyone.
He drove his Ferrari down to San Diego last weekend and still has a Cannonball Run era Lamborghini Countach in his garage.
Residuals aren't too bad if you have a massive hit.
Imagine still living off of the success you had 40 years ago.
Carlos Cavazzo probably.
Thanks for that explanation.
TCTTS
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Al Bundy was the most legendary man of the people until Jay Pritchett came along.Definitely Not A Cop said:HollywoodBQ said:A friend of mine went 6x Platinum in 1983 on an album that I guarantee you've banged your head to.Quad Dog said:
At the risk of sounding like an uneducated dummy, because I am, can anyone explain what is so sacred about the writer's room?
Also residuals sounds like a bad way to get paid. Sure they are great if your show is a hit and runs for years, but if not, you aren't getting paid. I think I'd want more money upfront then the risk of no to little residuals. And basing your residuals on subscriber count for the streaming service is just dumb for everyone.
He drove his Ferrari down to San Diego last weekend and still has a Cannonball Run era Lamborghini Countach in his garage.
Residuals aren't too bad if you have a massive hit.
Imagine still living off of the success you had 40 years ago.
Oh I can.
Writers Guild Negotiators on Where Talks Broke Down: “They Really Weren’t Interested in Making a Deal”
— Beatrice Verhoeven (@bverhoev) May 2, 2023
A great breakdown of the #writersstrike talks from @katiekilkenny7 https://t.co/6m4PjLSoYb via @thr
I've never understood the steadfast refusal to even negotiate in good faith knowing that a strike will inevitably happen and will hurt the studios. I get that they want some negotiating power too, but the only possible solution is compromise, so why not just start working on that to start with and save everyone the hassle of a strike.
Good news is that it sounds like most big productions have been preparing accordingly, at least.
Good news is that it sounds like most big productions have been preparing accordingly, at least.
Yeah, for months both sides have known *exactly* what the other wants. None of this had to be as inevitable as everyone claimed. So why the whole charade?
It feels like every industry I love and work in is going to be ground to dust by this insane idea that the only good or valid model for a company in nonstop unsustainable growth.
— DrewMcWeeny (@DrewMcWeeny) May 2, 2023
I hate it here.
One thing my 24 year old daughter seems to care about when she's evaluating YouTubers is the number of subscribers they have versus the number of people who have watched a particular video.superunknown said:Brian Earl Spilner said:
Strangest thing to me about all this is studios wanting to keep streaming data secret.
I'm guessing the numbers are big enough that it would make the pay disparity even more ridiculous between cable tv and streaming.
Or they're small enough where they don't want advertisers to know. It's one thing to pitch "we have 190 million subscribers" to advertisers and a completely different thing than saying "we have 190 million subscribers and only 340 people watched your show last week."
Examples from the last 24 hours.
- Jason Whitlock has 297K subscribers and 36K views on yesterday's Fearless
- Clay Travis has 687K subscribers and only 7.5K views on yesterday's Outkick show
- Scott Adams has 145K subscribers and 25K views on yesterday's Real Coffee
- Hotep Jesus has 84.5K subscribers and 7.7K views on last week's Hotep's Been Told Ya
Her favorite YouTuber and by her metrics looks to be quite popular is this guy called friendlyjordies who has 1.04M subscribers and his latest video has 393K views in the past 4 days. That puts him at 37.8% of his audience.
Here's a sample of his work.
As an investor. I'd like to know which of the 6 corporations that own 90% of the media industry haveSome Junkie Cosmonaut said:TCTTS said:"Its not the writers who will be grinding Hollywood to a halt. Its the studios. Its the network. Its the 6 corporations who own 90% of the media industry, have received record profits, and shared none of it with any workers across any part of their machine. Its a systemic issue.” https://t.co/hMGmZfyFzw
— Alex O’Keefe 🌻 (@AlexOKeefe1994) April 18, 2023Quote:
"Its not the writers who will be grinding Hollywood to a halt. Its the studios. Its the network. Its the 6 corporations who own 90% of the media industry, have received record profits, and shared none of it with any workers across any part of their machine. Its a systemic issue."
This has been a big issue for a while (outside of this strike). Hopefully this shutdown will direct more attention and thought to this problem.
TCTTS said:AI-created products simply can't recreate the most fundamental aspect of art. https://t.co/Rc3zbbvUta
— /Film (@slashfilm) May 2, 2023
While I don't want AI in my life in general, I would pay to go see that over a lot of what gets made these days
Elizabeth Olsen, Damon Lindelof, Amanda Seyfried and More Support Writers Strike: ‘WGA Is Inevitably Going to Win’ https://t.co/37EwvZvZNX
— Variety (@Variety) May 2, 2023
Paramount now pic.twitter.com/aZC1OFMkXJ
— Anna Koukouli Born (@akoukouli) May 2, 2023
On the scene at Fox 📸 #wgastrike pic.twitter.com/S1dEDOMy6a
— The Ankler (@TheAnkler) May 2, 2023
The picket line outside Netflix in L.A. 📸@elainelow #wgastrike pic.twitter.com/Href90NFTG
— The Ankler (@TheAnkler) May 2, 2023
At the growing picket line outside of The Culver Studios in LA today #WritersStrike pic.twitter.com/LFNPrmXNWx
— Deadline Hollywood (@DEADLINE) May 2, 2023
The writers strike picket line outside of Warner Bros. in Los Angeles. https://t.co/2mx1TyHf1T pic.twitter.com/sBeOvNcPBZ
— Variety (@Variety) May 2, 2023
television is the best it’s ever been. there’s absolutely no reason writers should be struggling to stay afloat while the executive who renamed HBO to just “MAX” makes over $100 million.
— kiersi burkhart (@kiersi) May 2, 2023
Great thread with some nice perspective…
An under-rated part of our current media company dynamic, that's led to this strike, is how miserable the execs *within* these companies are. They hate this new system as much as we do.
— John Rogers (@jonrog1) May 2, 2023
50/50 chance but yeah, Carlos.Roll the Bones said:Carlos Cavazzo probably.Know Your Enemy said:Rudy Sarzo?HollywoodBQ said:A friend of mine went 6x Platinum in 1983 on an album that I guarantee you've banged your head to.Quad Dog said:
At the risk of sounding like an uneducated dummy, because I am, can anyone explain what is so sacred about the writer's room?
Also residuals sounds like a bad way to get paid. Sure they are great if your show is a hit and runs for years, but if not, you aren't getting paid. I think I'd want more money upfront then the risk of no to little residuals. And basing your residuals on subscriber count for the streaming service is just dumb for everyone.
He drove his Ferrari down to San Diego last weekend and still has a Cannonball Run era Lamborghini Countach in his garage.
Residuals aren't too bad if you have a massive hit.
Imagine still living off of the success you had 40 years ago.
I've met Rudy, he's cool. Not on the same level as fellow Cuban bass player - Juan Croucier but still cool.
Straight out of 1983, enjoy:
Thats a pretty good example, and I have to preface this by saying...I have absolutely no idea how YouTube monetizes people who post videos. And I'd also imagine because there's no standard across platforms that lets us compare apples to apples that it's even more difficult to figure out what to charge advertisers who want to reach big YouTuber audiences. My sorta educated guess would be that you can buy specific streams/channels and pay higher for that specific privilege, or a given advertiser just wants X number of impressions and YouTube just serves that up however they can based on the advertiser's demands.
How that works into this strike...not sure. Clearly distributors are going to want to pay as little as possible for content, and writers want to make as much as they can for their contributions. I'm not sure how to quantify what a given show is worth to a service but it seems to me there has to be some level of baseline metrics used to measure all of that.
How that works into this strike...not sure. Clearly distributors are going to want to pay as little as possible for content, and writers want to make as much as they can for their contributions. I'm not sure how to quantify what a given show is worth to a service but it seems to me there has to be some level of baseline metrics used to measure all of that.
Very telling is their reply to our proposals to maintain the presence of writers on set and in editing where writing duties always continue well after a script is published. They countered with an unsalaried internship for younger writers. Free work was their reply. #WGAStrong https://t.co/sN43LwnlUh
— David Simon (@AoDespair) May 2, 2023
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