If a position has low pay, then that means there is either a large supply, small demand, or both. By nature, that means the position is easily replicable.tysker said:I didn't mean it to be trivializing, in fact, quite the opposite. My comment was aimed more at those who, imo, mistakenly believe that certain unskilled jobs, such as driving a city bus (which was specifically mentioned), inherently possess less replicable value and skill compared to professions like writing and acting.Coog97 said:Not trying to trivialize the impact of this on people's lives, but this made me laugh.tysker said:
I hope the writers don't have to revert to unskilled jobs like bartending, waiting tables, and bus driving just to pay bills
Writers Guild strike 2023
145,615 Views |
1612 Replies |
Last: 9 mo ago by uujm
While I directionally agree with you I would argue that productivity relative to wages is the real issue here.
The Baumol effect is hitting the entertainment industry. It's a labor-intensive field that is also undergoing a swift change in productivity. Wages, like prices, are relative. Writers and actors may viewed as less important (i.e. productive) than other members of the industry (e.g, AI, VFX, animators) to create the same good.
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/05/the-baumol-effect.html
Also, wages lag the economy. This is why unions always seem to be looking backward during negotiations and it is especially apparent in times when technology-led productivity disruption.
eta: I should add, a major difference in entertainment is the copywrite laws. Creators get monopoly power over their production. As do in some ways, bartenders and waiters. Bus drivers, less so.
The Baumol effect is hitting the entertainment industry. It's a labor-intensive field that is also undergoing a swift change in productivity. Wages, like prices, are relative. Writers and actors may viewed as less important (i.e. productive) than other members of the industry (e.g, AI, VFX, animators) to create the same good.
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/05/the-baumol-effect.html
Also, wages lag the economy. This is why unions always seem to be looking backward during negotiations and it is especially apparent in times when technology-led productivity disruption.
eta: I should add, a major difference in entertainment is the copywrite laws. Creators get monopoly power over their production. As do in some ways, bartenders and waiters. Bus drivers, less so.
I agree, but I would add that static wages would not be a problem if the cost of living wasn't going up. And in California they are going up REALLY FAST. THAT is real reason they are suffering. Not because of "evil" or "greedy" studios or any of that nonsense. These people have a beef with the wrong people.tysker said:
While I directionally agree with you I would argue that productivity relative to wages is the real issue here.
The Baumol effect is hitting the entertainment industry. It's a labor-intensive field that is also undergoing a swift change in productivity. Wages, like prices, are relative. Writers and actors may viewed as less important (i.e. productive) than other members of the industry (e.g, AI, VFX, animators) to create the same good.
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/05/the-baumol-effect.html
I write software, and my employer owns EVERYTHING I write. In fact, if I write software at home off the clock, and want to sell it, then I am still supposed to get the nod from my employer to do so. Yet I make plenty. So that itself is not the issue.Quote:
Also, wages lag the economy. This is why unions always seem to be looking backward during negotiations and it is especially apparent in times when technology-led productivity disruption.
eta: I should add, a major difference in entertainment is the copywrite laws. Creators get monopoly power over their production. As do in some ways, bartenders and waiters. Bus drivers, less so.
The issue is risk. I could quit my employer and write software on my own and get 100% of the ownership. But then 100% of the risk is mine. If my software doesn't sell, then I get nothing and loose all of my past investment. But in exchange of a steady, near guaranteed, paycheck, I lose the ability to make millions off of my software. Clearly, I accepted that trade off. Well the same applies for writers. There is nothing keeping them from going Sylvester Stallone and bearing the full risk of their work, and reaping the full reward.
lolLMCane said:AustinAg2K said:
As a consumer, I actually think AI is going to improve the end product. Not because I think AI can write a better script, but because it won't let the writers be lazy. Right now, AI can only regurgitate the same basic scripts as it has been trained on. It's not really coming up with anything original. A lot of lazy/bad writers do that, too. Those are the ones who will be in trouble. Writers will be force to come up with something original, or else they will be replaced by AI.
Media, news, journalists, TV anchors, TV writers
all will be replaced by AI
it's just a question of time.
sure, you may have an outstanding human manage to survive, but in general the news stations can put up a hologram of a hot female with the bot speaking and pay them ZERO dollars.
for even a better "speaker" with zero mistakes.
I can't believe this weekend I was listening to XM College Football early in the morning and the dummy READING THE SCORES got two of them wrong! he was literally reading a piece of paper and still messed it up!
NM
I just listened to an interview with Fran Drescher on NPR, and it occurs to me that she's likely the whole reason the studios walked away from negotiations... I mean, can you imagine being locked in a room with that voice for hours?
They also had a quote from one of the studios recent financial report where they essentially saying to expect lowered revenue because this thing is going on until at least Christmas.
I do feel bad for all the people that work on productions that aren't actors or writers. They are out of work with no say in any of it. I wonder what sort of backlash there will be against the strikers or studio from cameramen and key grips.
They also had a quote from one of the studios recent financial report where they essentially saying to expect lowered revenue because this thing is going on until at least Christmas.
I do feel bad for all the people that work on productions that aren't actors or writers. They are out of work with no say in any of it. I wonder what sort of backlash there will be against the strikers or studio from cameramen and key grips.
And I'm sure they're not paid on their level either
AustinAg2K said:
I just listened to an interview with Fran Drescher on NPR, and it occurs to me that she's likely the whole reason the studios walked away from negotiations... I mean, can you imagine being locked in a room with that voice for hours?
They also had a quote from one of the studios recent financial report where they essentially saying to expect lowered revenue because this thing is going on until at least Christmas.
I do feel bad for all the people that work on productions that aren't actors or writers. They are out of work with no say in any of it. I wonder what sort of backlash there will be against the strikers or studio from cameramen and key grips.
Whoever said this is lasting until at least Christmas has no idea what they're talking about. Sure, it *could* last until Christmas, but there is zero indication so far one way or the other, and studio heads/employees are just as clueless in that regard as everyone else. Right now, literally no one knows anything.
Also, camera men and key grips are represented by IATSE, which has been in lockstep with the WGA and SAG every step of the way. IATSE representation has been at every major guild meeting, has co-signed WGA and SAG press releases, thousands of its members have refused to cross most picket lines, and have been picketing alongside WGA and SAG for months now. Yes, it's horrible that IATSE members are collateral damage in all of this, but A) IATSE has a multi-million dollar emergency fund for its members as well, B) the IATSE contract is up for renewal next year, so showing solidarity now means solidarity in return when they're negotiating next year, and C) camera men and key grips can still work on commercials, photo shoots, and any film or TV shoots financed by companies like A24, Neon, etc, who have already agreed to all of the guilds' terms. Obviously, those kinds of shoots can only serve a fraction of IATSE members, but it's something.
ABATTBQ11 said:
And I'm sure they're not paid on their level either
Many camera men and key grips make far more than most writers/actors.
Do they earn residuals like writers? Internet gave me conflicting answers
Not that I'm aware of. But in return, they have much more stable/steady employment.
Where did that money come from?Quote:
IATSE has a multi-million dollar emergency fund for its members as well
aTmAg said:Where did that money come from?Quote:
IATSE has a multi-million dollar emergency fund for its members as well
Dues?
Dues and donations most likely.
Man residuals really seem like the double edged sword driving a lot of this conflict. Sure they are great if you have a hit, but useless if you don't. They enable smaller upfront cost so that more things get made, but also ensure that writers and most actors are underpaid for doing their jobs. Then streaming has completely changed everything and made residuals tiny regardless of hit status, but it seems like the upfront payments are more at least for the big stars.TCTTS said:
Not that I'm aware of. But in return, they have much more stable/steady employment.
Reminds me of waiters relying on one good night of tippers to make up for a week of bad tippers instead of them actually earning a good wage from their employer instead of outsourcing that compensation to tippers or residuals.
In the long run killing residuals might be the best thing for writers and non star actors to ensure more stable and better upfront income. But they are all chasing the dream of living off huge residual checks from a hit for the rest of your life.
Yeah, so from the members themselves. They could have otherwise kept that money and invested it instead and they would be much better off. So they are still being screwed by their union.maroon barchetta said:aTmAg said:Where did that money come from?Quote:
IATSE has a multi-million dollar emergency fund for its members as well
Dues?
IA crew will snort that pension health and welfare money over the weekend.aTmAg said:Yeah, so from the members themselves. They could have otherwise kept that money and invested it instead and they would be much better off. So they are still being screwed by their union.maroon barchetta said:aTmAg said:Where did that money come from?Quote:
IATSE has a multi-million dollar emergency fund for its members as well
Dues?
uujm said:IA crew will snort that pension health and welfare money over the weekend.aTmAg said:Yeah, so from the members themselves. They could have otherwise kept that money and invested it instead and they would be much better off. So they are still being screwed by their union.maroon barchetta said:aTmAg said:Where did that money come from?Quote:
IATSE has a multi-million dollar emergency fund for its members as well
Dues?
Snort?
I agree. Getting rid of residuals would be much better for the average writer and actor. However, it's not better for the studios because it would mean more up front costs, and more risk. It's also not better for the A list actor. They make a ton off of residuals, and I'm pretty sure they are the ones essentially running the union, so getting rid of residuals is never going to happen.Quad Dog said:Man residuals really seem like the double edged sword driving a lot of this conflict. Sure they are great if you have a hit, but useless if you don't. They enable smaller upfront cost so that more things get made, but also ensure that writers and most actors are underpaid for doing their jobs. Then streaming has completely changed everything and made residuals tiny regardless of hit status, but it seems like the upfront payments are more at least for the big stars.TCTTS said:
Not that I'm aware of. But in return, they have much more stable/steady employment.
Reminds me of waiters relying on one good night of tippers to make up for a week of bad tippers instead of them actually earning a good wage from their employer instead of outsourcing that compensation to tippers or residuals.
In the long run killing residuals might be the best thing for writers and non star actors to ensure more stable and better upfront income. But they are all chasing the dream of living off huge residual checks from a hit for the rest of your life.
And even though he seems like a dick, I feel like aTmAg is write about getting rid of the union being better for everyone, but that's never going to happen either.
If the AMPTP can't get their sh*t together and on the same page, hopefully the legacy studios start breaking off soon and making their own deals with the guilds. This was always a possibility, but at this point almost seems like an inevitability…
These legacy studios... Netflix, Apple and Amazon are gonna crush'em if they don't come to their senses (and soon)
— Conor Patrick 🔺 (@cpatrickdood) September 8, 2023
TCTTS said:
If the AMPTP can't get their sh*t together and on the same page, hopefully the legacy studios start breaking off soon and making their own deals with the guilds. This was always a possibility, but at this point almost seems like an inevitability…These legacy studios... Netflix, Apple and Amazon are gonna crush'em if they don't come to their senses (and soon)
— Conor Patrick 🔺 (@cpatrickdood) September 8, 2023
I don't know. That really reads more like propaganda and wishful thinking to me.
The Unforgiven said:
This dude is full of so much sh*t. He leaves out a number of crucial caveats, clearly has an ax to grind, and argues in all around bad faith, in point after point. Straight up, he has no idea what he's talking about.
People actually put stock in this type of surface-level, clickbait outrage?
AustinAg2K said:TCTTS said:
If the AMPTP can't get their sh*t together and on the same page, hopefully the legacy studios start breaking off soon and making their own deals with the guilds. This was always a possibility, but at this point almost seems like an inevitability…These legacy studios... Netflix, Apple and Amazon are gonna crush'em if they don't come to their senses (and soon)
— Conor Patrick 🔺 (@cpatrickdood) September 8, 2023
I don't know. That really reads more like propaganda and wishful thinking to me.
Of course it's propaganda, but that doesn't mean it's without truth.
I get it that you are all in on with the the writers and actors. They cannot ask for too much. They can do no wrong. They are the perfect angels in all of this, and they are fighting a war like we have never seen. You have never once said anything in a negative light of all of this. There has to be at least one thing that they are asking too much for. Or something they shouldn't have.
I don't care who wins this between the writers/actors or the studios. When all is said and done, the consumers are going to be big losers. The cost of streaming services, movies, cable, and more will just have to go up to cover the new pay increases. However, we are not going to get a better product out of it. With inflation still being a big issue, this doesn't bring down costs for the rest of the country.
Still coming out of a slow economy during the pandemic, with the highest inflation since the early 80's, and less good movies and shows, now you want to strike. Where is the average family/person going to find more money to pay the increased cost for less quality product. All it does is increase inflation overall, which will cause the average family/person to cancel some of their entertainment budget. I know you will say, well the studios shouldn't raise the cost on their products. However, that is not the way the world works.
The consumers always lose out when there is a strike. They are the ones that actually pay the salaries of these writers and actors.
I don't want either the studios or the actors/writers to win this thing because they have produced a lot of worthless stuff the last few years. I am fine with all of the other entertainment options because i still have a huge backlog of shows, movies, books, and video games to get through along with podcasts, YouTube, Twitch, sports, and live music. Like a lot of other people. Produce better stuff, and the average person would care more.
I don't care who wins this between the writers/actors or the studios. When all is said and done, the consumers are going to be big losers. The cost of streaming services, movies, cable, and more will just have to go up to cover the new pay increases. However, we are not going to get a better product out of it. With inflation still being a big issue, this doesn't bring down costs for the rest of the country.
Still coming out of a slow economy during the pandemic, with the highest inflation since the early 80's, and less good movies and shows, now you want to strike. Where is the average family/person going to find more money to pay the increased cost for less quality product. All it does is increase inflation overall, which will cause the average family/person to cancel some of their entertainment budget. I know you will say, well the studios shouldn't raise the cost on their products. However, that is not the way the world works.
The consumers always lose out when there is a strike. They are the ones that actually pay the salaries of these writers and actors.
I don't want either the studios or the actors/writers to win this thing because they have produced a lot of worthless stuff the last few years. I am fine with all of the other entertainment options because i still have a huge backlog of shows, movies, books, and video games to get through along with podcasts, YouTube, Twitch, sports, and live music. Like a lot of other people. Produce better stuff, and the average person would care more.
Clearly, you're having a conversation with yourself here, because it's certainly not with me. So many projections and conclusions being jumped to, so many words put in my mouth. I don't even know where to start.
The Unforgiven said:
I get it that you are all in on with the the writers and actors. They cannot ask for too much. They can do no wrong. They are the perfect angels in all of this, and they are fighting a war like we have never seen. You have never once said anything in a negative light of all of this. There has to be at least one thing that they are asking too much for. Or something they shouldn't have.
I don't care who wins this between the writers/actors or the studios. When all is said and done, the consumers are going to be big losers. The cost of streaming services, movies, cable, and more will just have to go up to cover the new pay increases. However, we are not going to get a better product out of it. With inflation still being a big issue, this doesn't bring down costs for the rest of the country.
Still coming out of a slow economy during the pandemic, with the highest inflation since the early 80's, and less good movies and shows, now you want to strike. Where is the average family/person going to find more money to pay the increased cost for less quality product. All it does is increase inflation overall, which will cause the average family/person to cancel some of their entertainment budget. I know you will say, well the studios shouldn't raise the cost on their products. However, that is not the way the world works.
The consumers always lose out when there is a strike. They are the ones that actually pay the salaries of these writers and actors.
I don't want either the studios or the actors/writers to win this thing because they have produced a lot of worthless stuff the last few years. I am fine with all of the other entertainment options because i still have a huge backlog of shows, movies, books, and video games to get through along with podcasts, YouTube, Twitch, sports, and live music. Like a lot of other people. Produce better stuff, and the average person would care more.
I'm curious, would you wait for the economy to improve before asking your own company for a raise? Even if you were making what you felt were below market wages or benefits?
The true market wages are would they would get individually without a union. People only join or establish unions when they want more than the market wage. So by nature, they are not asking for market wage, they are asking for more.
Yeah, I would wait because if we are in an environment where there is a strong possibility of layoffs, you wouldn't want to give your employer any ammo to include you in a layoff. Sometimes you have to use common sense and learn to read the room. If i know my company is struggling and the economy is struggling then i ask for a raise, that is a dumb@$$ move. That employer isn't going to take me serious. All of us on here probably feel like we all deserve a raise, no matter what we make currently. I'd rather have my current paycheck than no paycheck. I definitely, wouldn't stop working, go to my room, and cry that I am not getting my way.
Wrote it earlier, and I know it isn't an original thought but the AMPTP has become such a large and diverse collection of studios with such different business models, that I don't see how they can come to any agreements amongst themselves, much less agree with the WGA. This isn't like the United Auto Workers (UAW) trying to come up with some agreement with Ford, it's like the UAW trying to come up with some agreement with every auto, boat, motorcycle, and tricycle manufacturer and distributor.
What I expect to see is the WGA doing many more individual deals now with studios.
What I expect to see is the WGA doing many more individual deals now with studios.
One thing that is hilarious about whole thing is that one of their complaints is about getting replaced with AI. That's like burger flippers going on strike because their jobs being automated away. What better way to prove your employers correct than that?
I guarantee that the money that the studios would have spent on writers is now being invested in improving AI technology. These strikes are actually accelerating their replacement.
Fools.
I guarantee that the money that the studios would have spent on writers is now being invested in improving AI technology. These strikes are actually accelerating their replacement.
Fools.
You said the video i posted is clickbait. I am sure some of it could be called click bait, that is YouTube, but that doesn't mean there is no truths in that video. Then in the tweet that you posted another poster said it was propaganda and wishful thinking. You immediately say it is propaganda and true.
To me both are the same, but from different sides. You seem to never consider the other side. I don't remember every post you made on this side, but i would say at lest 95% of your posts are: rah rah go union go. Beat the Studios rah rah
That is fine. I get it that you are buddies with lots of writers and actors. You identify more with them then studio execs and non-union employees. I get that. However, have you ever consider they may be asking a little too much, or that the studios have a good point on something. I am sure both sides are right on some of the stuff but not all.
I agree with the union's more on the AI stuff. There is so many questions and unknowns at this point with AI. However, i briefly heard on a show i was watching in the background that a judge ruled in a case that AI generated product couldn't be copyrighted or patented because it wasn't created by a person or group of people. That is an interesting view of it. If that is what it turns out to be, that can keep companies from depending on it.
To me both are the same, but from different sides. You seem to never consider the other side. I don't remember every post you made on this side, but i would say at lest 95% of your posts are: rah rah go union go. Beat the Studios rah rah
That is fine. I get it that you are buddies with lots of writers and actors. You identify more with them then studio execs and non-union employees. I get that. However, have you ever consider they may be asking a little too much, or that the studios have a good point on something. I am sure both sides are right on some of the stuff but not all.
I agree with the union's more on the AI stuff. There is so many questions and unknowns at this point with AI. However, i briefly heard on a show i was watching in the background that a judge ruled in a case that AI generated product couldn't be copyrighted or patented because it wasn't created by a person or group of people. That is an interesting view of it. If that is what it turns out to be, that can keep companies from depending on it.
The Unforgiven said:
You said the video i posted is clickbait. I am sure some of it could be called click bait, that is YouTube, but that doesn't mean there is no truths in that video. Then in the tweet that you posted another poster said it was propaganda and wishful thinking. You immediately say it is propaganda and true.
To me both are the same, but from different sides. You seem to never consider the other side. I don't remember every post you made on this side, but i would say at lest 95% of your posts are: rah rah go union go. Beat the Studios rah rah
That is fine. I get it that you are buddies with lots of writers and actors. You identify more with them then studio execs and non-union employees. I get that. However, have you ever consider they may be asking a little too much, or that the studios have a good point on something. I am sure both sides are right on some of the stuff but not all.
I agree with the union's more on the AI stuff. There is so many questions and unknowns at this point with AI. However, i briefly heard on a show i was watching in the background that a judge ruled in a case that AI generated product couldn't be copyrighted or patented because it wasn't created by a person or group of people. That is an interesting view of it. If that is what it turns out to be, that can keep companies from depending on it.
That last point is a really good one and would really help the writers. A studio isn't going to use an AI generated script if it can't be copywrited. If they did, then anyone could come along and make essentially the same movie.
I've lost a lot of business this year to people using AI to write their own articles / blogs, or asking me to "just use AI" and then edit it for them. They seem staggered to realize that there might be 50 people out there generating the same content and also claiming it to be their own work. Good ruling by the courts.AustinAg2K said:The Unforgiven said:
You said the video i posted is clickbait. I am sure some of it could be called click bait, that is YouTube, but that doesn't mean there is no truths in that video. Then in the tweet that you posted another poster said it was propaganda and wishful thinking. You immediately say it is propaganda and true.
To me both are the same, but from different sides. You seem to never consider the other side. I don't remember every post you made on this side, but i would say at lest 95% of your posts are: rah rah go union go. Beat the Studios rah rah
That is fine. I get it that you are buddies with lots of writers and actors. You identify more with them then studio execs and non-union employees. I get that. However, have you ever consider they may be asking a little too much, or that the studios have a good point on something. I am sure both sides are right on some of the stuff but not all.
I agree with the union's more on the AI stuff. There is so many questions and unknowns at this point with AI. However, i briefly heard on a show i was watching in the background that a judge ruled in a case that AI generated product couldn't be copyrighted or patented because it wasn't created by a person or group of people. That is an interesting view of it. If that is what it turns out to be, that can keep companies from depending on it.
That last point is a really good one and would really help the writers. A studio isn't going to use an AI generated script if it can't be copywrited. If they did, then anyone could come along and make essentially the same movie.
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