I got the impression that if the blood didn't sit there for very long, it wouldn't have soaked through. The area they dug up did have a crack in it, so if she was killed in the garage either blood just didn't get in the crack or just pouring bleach in the crack makes the blood undetectable.

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I wonder what made them fear for their safety...believing that the cops planted the evidence?

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A juror was a father of a county sheriff's deputy.

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How the hell did he get on the jury? My understanding is that anyone with fairly close familial relations with law enforcement often don't get selected by the defense due to potential bias.

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I wonder what made them fear for their safety...believing that the cops planted the evidence?

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A juror was a father of a county sheriff's deputy.

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How could the father not be dismissed for conflict of interest, given the dynamics of the case?

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I got the impression that if the blood didn't sit there for very long, it wouldn't have soaked through. The area they dug up did have a crack in it, so if she was killed in the garage either blood just didn't get in the crack or just pouring bleach in the crack makes the blood undetectable.

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I think when you bleach blood, it will still show up in luminol tests for the presence of blood, but DNA will be destroyed.

If the juror really was a father of a cop, I've heard that here and a few other places, none all that reputable. It had to have been hidden from Avery's attorneys right? Would that be grounds for a mistrial?

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If the juror really was a father of a cop, I've heard that here and a few other places, none all that reputable. It had to have been hidden from Avery's attorneys right? Would that be grounds for a mistrial?

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Is Steven Avery's lawyer a reputable enough source? About 5 minutes into this interview. Father of a sheriff's deputy and the wife of a county clerk on the jury.

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The documentary makes a compelling story, but it is only one side.

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This is a common comment. I dont necessarily disagree, but its a bit unfair for Kratz to criticize the filmakers on the way it was put together and presented. (literally zero narration)


1) Naturally all the footage and commentary from the defense adds more weight to one perspective. But that is because, the defense agreed to share their perspective, the prosecution DECLINED to share theirs. (the viewer hears much more strategy from defense then prosecution for that reason alone)

2) The Halbach family was not a part of the production, and the Avery family willing participated.

3) In terms of court coverage and evidence explored, the filmakers did a good job showing the most significant content on both sides rather objectively.

4) The underlying theme was about the judicial system and its initial failing of Avery. Related to that, was the subsequent Teresa case in which the conflict of interest, suspicious Manitowoc invlovement, and probable planting of evidence became too obvious and significant a variable that it subconsciously dominated the viewer.

IMO, this film is more about highlighting major topics of due process, fair trial, innocence until proven guilt, and integrity/objectivity in investigation or evidence testing...than it is about 1 man's character or guilt.

Law enforcement around the country needs to know that if you compromise ANY PART investigation to plant guilt rather that prove it, then you compromise the entire trial. In this case, the prosecution literally convinced a jury that it "didnt matter if the key was planted". That is an embarrassing travesty that will continue to gain traction over the coming months....this story is far from over.

Going forward major indicator of guilt for me is whether Steve himself speculates or mentions Bobby or Scott with all the public speculation. If not, that may be an indication he is the one indeed guilty and just banking solely on the corruption/mistrial angle.

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One thing I just thought of. Doesn't burning a human smell really bad? I wonder why nobody smelled anything. I'm not an expert on burning human bodies, but perhaps my theory on two burnings answer that? Perhaps it smells bad early on, but the second burning doesn't smell much anymore?

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I have a feeling that the Avery's burn a lot of stuff that you're probably not supposed to burn. And I'd bet a lot of that stuff smells really bad.

I agree with a decent portion of your theory. I think Brendan had more to do with it though. I also think the kill shot was likely in the garage and he helped Steven clean it up with bleach.

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One thing that doesn't jive with that, is the fact that it would be damn hard to clean microscopic blood splatter off of all that crap he had stored in the garage.

Maybe you are right on Brandan's involvement. Maybe he helped Avery dump the body from the barrel into the burn pit or something like that.

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Yeah, but I think the confession also talks about burning sheets and more. I think Steve raped her on a mattress, maybe not the one in his room, but even if it was, he raped her on that and they burned the mattress as well.

I need to read Brendan's full confession transcript that I posted earlier on the thread. I skimmed it but haven't really dug into it hard. I think poor Brendan is too stupid to know what he was doing, but I think he most likely had a role in it.

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I'd think there would be mattress springs and crap in the fire if they burned a mattress. I also think that if her throat was slit, there would be blood somewhere in the trailer. Surely all over the mattress and on the floor when they dragged the mattress out of the house. I suspect that either she was only raped in the bedroom (and therefore they only had to dispose of the sheets) or nothing happened in the bedroom at all. There were no scratch marks on the posts, or any of that.

I have to read the full confession too. I suspect that at parts he was being truthful and later on he was making crap up. The parts that don't match evidence, I'd throw out. Like the shooting her in the head and all of that crap after they prodded him didn't sound credible at all to me. If I remember correctly, the part about seeing her in the fire was not "planted" in his brain. But again, I'd have to read the transcript (or watch it) to get a better feel.

According to SA's attorneys, the documentary also shows evidence that a judge disallowed that was not favorable to SA.

The problem with the argument that he (with our without brendan's help) cleaned up the mess in either the trailer or the garage is that the photographs at the time of the searches show that BOTH were complete cluttered sh*t holes that hadn't seen a broom in 50 years, let alone bleach. If someone had run a swiffer over that garage floor it would have stood out like a sore thumb.

i need to go back and review the evidence about what was found in the pit, and what was in the barrel.

Brendan said in his initial statements that he and Steven drove around and picked up a cabinet and other crap in the yard to throw in the bonfire Steven invited Brendan to that night. The fact they had a fire pit and burn barrels lying around make me think these people were constantly burning all kinds of things. Drive past any auto salvage yard, or house where people have multiple wrecks in the yard and you'll always see fires, some that stink to high heaven. (I grew up in N. Alabama where "fixin' wrecks" had to be the number one industry....every house out in the county had dozens of them, and fires were always burning)

There's a half dozen shady characters living on that property, with access to the yard and the burn pit/barrel. I think suspicion is correctly pointed in the direction of all of them, including Steven Avery, and the cops just decided to "help" their case along for the suspect they believed did it.

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I also think that if her throat was slit, there would be blood somewhere in the trailer.

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This is an extremempy important contradiction of events between the 2 trials.

In Steve's trial, the prosecution concedes that her throat was NOT slit in the trailer. Kratz goes as far as to say "she was killed in the garage, there shouldnt be (any blood in trailer)"


However, in Brendan's trial everything hinged on that confessed circumstances of rape and throat slitting IN trailer. They showed his coerced 1st grade drawing on the bed.

When the juries are different people and only allowed to consider "evidence" seperately and independently, I guess that can happen. Not sure how judges and the appeals courts view an inconsistency of that magnitude?

I would not want to be one of these judges....I bet they got security out the azz right now

A lot of people are trying too hard to be objective. The film was not as biased as many are saying it was. The "omitted" evidence from the documentary is very minor all things considered. Who cares if you found part of her jeans in a burn pile, you found her effing bones.

Also, I said it a few pages ago and will say it again, the argument of "he probably still did it" has no real basis except that people are biased because of his wrongful felony conviction.

The lack of evidence that he killed her, coupled with the police involvement to frame and plant, FAR outweighs any evidence such as a bullet fragment or a DNA under a hood latch.

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In Steve's trial, the prosecution concedes that her throat was NOT slit in the trailer. Kratz goes as far as to say "she was killed in the garage, there shouldnt be (any blood in trailer)"

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Yet no blood in the garage, either.

If she was shot in the head and the bullet exited (as it would have had to do for it to later be found 4 months later), it would be a very bloody scene.

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The lack of evidence that he killed her, coupled with the police involvement to frame and plant, FAR outweighs any evidence such as a bullet fragment or a DNA under a hood latch.

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Len Kachinsky in the news

For SA to have shot her with the bullet that was "found," either

1) SA shot her in the garage, somehow cleaned the entire garage of all blood and DNA (imagine blood splatter on all the clutter) to the point that none seeped through cracks, and never retrieved the bullet that somehow was crushed. Not to mention after his meticulous cleaning, he left her and his blood in her car and attempted to hide it on his own lot.

OR

he shot her elsewhere on the lot, searched for and miraculously found the exited bullet, crushed it, didn't clean it, and threw it in his garage in hopes that it would not be found.

Eh.

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One thing I just thought of. Doesn't burning a human smell really bad? I wonder why nobody smelled anything. I'm not an expert on burning human bodies, but perhaps my theory on two burnings answer that? Perhaps it smells bad early on, but the second burning doesn't smell much anymore?

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I have a feeling that the Avery's burn a lot of stuff that you're probably not supposed to burn. And I'd bet a lot of that stuff smells really bad.

I agree with a decent portion of your theory. I think Brendan had more to do with it though. I also think the kill shot was likely in the garage and he helped Steven clean it up with bleach.

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One thing that doesn't jive with that, is the fact that it would be damn hard to clean microscopic blood splatter off of all that crap he had stored in the garage.

Maybe you are right on Brandan's involvement. Maybe he helped Avery dump the body from the barrel into the burn pit or something like that.

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Yeah, but I think the confession also talks about burning sheets and more. I think Steve raped her on a mattress, maybe not the one in his room, but even if it was, he raped her on that and they burned the mattress as well.

I need to read Brendan's full confession transcript that I posted earlier on the thread. I skimmed it but haven't really dug into it hard. I think poor Brendan is too stupid to know what he was doing, but I think he most likely had a role in it.

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I'd think there would be mattress springs and crap in the fire if they burned a mattress. I also think that if her throat was slit, there would be blood somewhere in the trailer. Surely all over the mattress and on the floor when they dragged the mattress out of the house. I suspect that either she was only raped in the bedroom (and therefore they only had to dispose of the sheets) or nothing happened in the bedroom at all. There were no scratch marks on the posts, or any of that.

I have to read the full confession too. I suspect that at parts he was being truthful and later on he was making crap up. The parts that don't match evidence, I'd throw out. Like the shooting her in the head and all of that crap after they prodded him didn't sound credible at all to me. If I remember correctly, the part about seeing her in the fire was not "planted" in his brain. But again, I'd have to read the transcript (or watch it) to get a better feel.

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Re-read the transcript from 2 pages back that I had linked earlier in the thread that someone brought back up. Doesn't take long. I just re-read that whole transcript.

That one seems pretty honest of Brendan. I think that might be the most accurate account of what actually happened, but I do think Brendan was probably keeping himself out of bits and pieces of it.

Glad I read that in full instead of skimming. Discusses him seeing parts of her in the barrel, Steve telling Brendan that he stabbed her in her car, she tried to fight him off in the car scratching him, him taking the car out to the pit(different from the burn barrel), etc.

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Glad I read that in full instead of skimming. Discusses him seeing parts of her in the barrel, Steve telling Brendan that he stabbed her in her car, she tried to fight him off in the car scratching him, him taking the car out to the pit(different from the burn pit), etc.

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Was her blood in the car? I thought only his blood was in the car.

Brendan said so many different things at so many different times, any statement he has made is about as unreliable as possible. I don't think you can put stock in anything he has ever said. Even if it sounds like he is telling the truth.

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Glad I read that in full instead of skimming. Discusses him seeing parts of her in the barrel, Steve telling Brendan that he stabbed her in her car, she tried to fight him off in the car scratching him, him taking the car out to the pit(different from the burn pit), etc.

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Was her blood in the car? I thought only his blood was in the car.

Brendan said so many different things at so many different times, any statement he has made is about as unreliable as possible. I don't think you can put stock in anything he has ever said. Even if it sounds like he is telling the truth.

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They found her blood in the trunk...said the blood pattern came from bloody hair resting on the spot

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Glad I read that in full instead of skimming. Discusses him seeing parts of her in the barrel, Steve telling Brendan that he stabbed her in her car, she tried to fight him off in the car scratching him, him taking the car out to the pit(different from the burn pit), etc.

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Was her blood in the car? I thought only his blood was in the car.

Brendan said so many different things at so many different times, any statement he has made is about as unreliable as possible. I don't think you can put stock in anything he has ever said. Even if it sounds like he is telling the truth.

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They found her blood in the trunk...said the blood pattern came from bloody hair resting on the spot

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Yep. and Brendan mentions Steve said he tied her up. So he probably threw her in the back and drove it out to the gravel pit.

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photographs at the time of the searches show that BOTH were complete cluttered sh*t holes that hadn't seen a broom in 50 years, let alone bleach. If someone had run a swiffer over that garage floor it would have stood out like a sore thumb.

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These are the finer points possibly overlooked, and not presented in the documentary. There are many more finer issues like this that the filmakers could have easily let flood in if they really had the "agenda" they are accused of.

IMO, the circumstances around:
1) the bullet being "found" AFTER it was discovered Halbach had bullet hole in skull, they got the warrant based on that fact....so no wonder they "found" a bullet, if only they would have known sooner and planted bullet earlier. It would have played much better to find bullet with DNA BEFORE discovery of bullet hole on skull.

2) the bullet being "found" by a Manitowoc officer AFTER being extensively searched Nov 05 - Feb 06.

3) extremely shady direction from Fassbender to ballistics rep and the testing/contamination anomoly in lab

4) ZERO DNA anywhere else in garage other than a tiny bullet fragment

5) ZERO signs of decontamination effort, and instead stationary materials scattered and dust/other residuals present on surface.

ALL put the bulllet in the "planted" category for me.

As someone pointed out you could easily find a bullet from his gun searching the property. I doubt there was a check in log at the Teresa residence, to snatch DNA via toothbrush, hair, tampon etc...or the trunk of RAV4 Lenk lied about visiting

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Glad I read that in full instead of skimming. Discusses him seeing parts of her in the barrel, Steve telling Brendan that he stabbed her in her car, she tried to fight him off in the car scratching him, him taking the car out to the pit(different from the burn pit), etc.

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Was her blood in the car? I thought only his blood was in the car.

Brendan said so many different things at so many different times, any statement he has made is about as unreliable as possible. I don't think you can put stock in anything he has ever said. Even if it sounds like he is telling the truth.

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They found her blood in the trunk...said the blood pattern came from bloody hair resting on the spot

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Yep. and Steve mentions he tied her up. So he probably threw her in the back and drove it out to the gravel pit.

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When did Steve say he tied her up?

Her blood was in the back of the Rav-4, in patterns consistent with hair and her scalp. It was not an obvious q-tip swipe of blood.

apologies. I meant Brendan

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For SA to have shot her with the bullet that was "found," either

1) SA shot her in the garage, somehow cleaned the entire garage of all blood and DNA (imagine blood splatter on all the clutter) to the point that none seeped through cracks, and never retrieved the bullet that somehow was crushed. Not to mention after his meticulous cleaning, he left her and his blood in her car and attempted to hide it on his own lot.

OR

he shot her elsewhere on the lot, searched for and miraculously found the exited bullet, crushed it, didn't clean it, and threw it in his garage in hopes that it would not be found.

Eh.

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He shot his gun all the time from his garage. I don't think it would be hard to find something that he shot, pull the bullet and contaminate it with her blood from the car.

Reporter who covered the trial is live tweeting his reactions to the doc

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One thing I just thought of. Doesn't burning a human smell really bad? I wonder why nobody smelled anything. I'm not an expert on burning human bodies, but perhaps my theory on two burnings answer that? Perhaps it smells bad early on, but the second burning doesn't smell much anymore?

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I have a feeling that the Avery's burn a lot of stuff that you're probably not supposed to burn. And I'd bet a lot of that stuff smells really bad.

I agree with a decent portion of your theory. I think Brendan had more to do with it though. I also think the kill shot was likely in the garage and he helped Steven clean it up with bleach.

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One thing that doesn't jive with that, is the fact that it would be damn hard to clean microscopic blood splatter off of all that crap he had stored in the garage.

Maybe you are right on Brandan's involvement. Maybe he helped Avery dump the body from the barrel into the burn pit or something like that.

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Yeah, but I think the confession also talks about burning sheets and more. I think Steve raped her on a mattress, maybe not the one in his room, but even if it was, he raped her on that and they burned the mattress as well.

I need to read Brendan's full confession transcript that I posted earlier on the thread. I skimmed it but haven't really dug into it hard. I think poor Brendan is too stupid to know what he was doing, but I think he most likely had a role in it.

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I'd think there would be mattress springs and crap in the fire if they burned a mattress. I also think that if her throat was slit, there would be blood somewhere in the trailer. Surely all over the mattress and on the floor when they dragged the mattress out of the house. I suspect that either she was only raped in the bedroom (and therefore they only had to dispose of the sheets) or nothing happened in the bedroom at all. There were no scratch marks on the posts, or any of that.

I have to read the full confession too. I suspect that at parts he was being truthful and later on he was making crap up. The parts that don't match evidence, I'd throw out. Like the shooting her in the head and all of that crap after they prodded him didn't sound credible at all to me. If I remember correctly, the part about seeing her in the fire was not "planted" in his brain. But again, I'd have to read the transcript (or watch it) to get a better feel.

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Re-read the transcript from 2 pages back that I had linked earlier in the thread that someone brought back up. Doesn't take long. I just re-read that whole transcript.

That one seems pretty honest of Brendan. I think that might be the most accurate account of what actually happened, but I do think Brendan was probably keeping himself out of bits and pieces of it.

Glad I read that in full instead of skimming. Discusses him seeing parts of her in the barrel, Steve telling Brendan that he stabbed her in her car, she tried to fight him off in the car scratching him, him taking the car out to the pit(different from the burn barrel), etc.

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I'll check it out... It sounds from your quick description, that maybe my theoretical explanation might fit.

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I'll check it out... It sounds from your quick description, that maybe my theoretical explanation might fit.

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Yep. it definitely puts yours pretty close, imo.

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A lot of people are trying too hard to be objective. The film was not as biased as many are saying it was. The "omitted" evidence from the documentary is very minor all things considered. Who cares if you found part of her jeans in a burn pile, you found her effing bones.

Also, I said it a few pages ago and will say it again, the argument of "he probably still did it" has no real basis except that people are biased because of his wrongful felony conviction.

The lack of evidence that he killed her, coupled with the police involvement to frame and plant, FAR outweighs any evidence such as a bullet fragment or a DNA under a hood latch.

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The only omitted evidence that has really struck a chord with me is that Steven requested Halbach specifically and got her there under false pretenses, called her three times that day and has been accused of sexually abusing his relatives.

The other stuff that puts me in the "he probably did it" camp was in the documentary, but I think was severely undersold or glossed over.

A) He was hated by police even before the lawsuit and the 1985 conviction
B) Not only did he write death threats to his ex-wife, he included those threats in letters to his children. That's really ****ed up.
C) Animal cruelty is obviously a big red flag. Having him tell his side of this charge and not mentioning that he soaked the cat in oil or gasoline might be the most dishonest part of the whole series to me. That of course is a classic sign of a killer, but it also pokes a gaping hole in his, "I always admit it when I've done something wrong" line.

None of those things connect him directly to the murder, but they paint the picture of an awful human being. All of those things combined with his house being the last known whereabouts make me pretty confident that he did it. Of course this a very different question than should he have been convicted.

I just don't know enough about legal procedures to say whether or not there should have been a mistrial. Having that very public press conference from an ill-gotten confession was an extremely dirty trick. It makes sense that it could be grounds for a mistrial, but how do you put that genie back in the lamp?

The DA's character is a part of why it's very believable to me that the cops planted the key and the bullet and maybe the car. I don't think he was directly involved in that, but I think he put tons of pressure on the cops to make sure they had enough evidence for a conviction. And he was definitely interested in winning instead of finding out the truth of what happened.

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I still don't see how anyone thinks Brendan is a credible witness.

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I don't see how Brendan is still locked up.