Holy ****
Just finished 4 and 5
Rethinking everything.
Just finished 4 and 5
Rethinking everything.
Making a Murder - Netflix Original Series
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Last: 1 yr ago by Pluralizes Everythings
unmade bed
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quote:There is actually a lot of pro-defense stuff that wasn't in the documentary. If you read the interviews with that scumbag prosecutor, he doesn't really have any hard evidence that Avery did it that wasn't in the docu.
Yeah, I admit I have 7 more hrs to go and will keep watching with an open mind, but keeping in mind I am basically watching the defenses unrefuted theory of the case, so I won't just accept what is presented without question.
Pro-defense stuff not in MAM:
- There was deer blood all over the garage. It clearly hadn't been cleaned.
- The sheriff talked about being really rough with that book case in shaking it around to get that key to fall out, then took a pic right after they saw it. Shaking it violently didn't knock those papers or remote off?
- The defense questioned Bobby Dassey about how he said that Avery made the joke about hiding the body on Nov 3rd (before it was found.) He later agreed that the joke wasn't on that date because he was working and didn't see Avery on the 3rd.
- The gun expert could not conclusively identify the .22 bullet as coming from Avery's gun. They could only say it was a .22 bullet and Avery had a .22 gun. There was also no DNA or blood blow back you would expect with a close range shot.
- A propane truck driver saw a green SUV leaving the Avery property between 3:30-4.
- A forensic anthropologist testified that an open fire such as in Avery's pit wouldn't have generated enough heat to burn the body and bones the way they were burnt. You need 1.5-2.5 hours at 1700 degrees.
- Manitowoc County Sheriff Robert Hermann owns a competing auto salvage yard with his brother, Todd.
- All of Steven's conversations in jail (phone calls, meetings, etc) were recorded and he never once implicated himself. He isn't exactly a brilliant dude.
- Blaine Dassey testified that Bobby Dassey was asleep when he got home from school at 3:40. This contradicts Bobby's testimony that he went hunting at 2:30 and saw Teresa then.
- The clerk admitted under oath that not everyone signed the log book that went into the evidence room.
- The tech that found Avery's DNA under the hood admitted in court that they didn't change their gloves after handling other evidence against protocol. The amount of DNA found was miniscule.
- The County Coroner testified that sheriffs refused to allow her near the body recovery site, which is against the law. She had also received calls from the Manitowoc County executive and the county's top attorney not to investigate the case. However, Mantowoc County allowed their sheriffs to continue to investigate.
- The key was never dusted for prints.
- The expert that screwed up the DNA test on the bullet was also the very same woman that testified in Steven Avery's rape case in 1985 that the hair found on the victim came from Steven.
- She also was told to run the DNA test that exonerated Avery, but delayed running it for over a year.
The Prosecutor's list of things left out (things that have nothing to do with the case left out):
- Avery called and asked for Teresa. He also called her three times that day.
- Teresa said she would never go back to Avery's place (unsubstantiated and she willingly chose to go back to his place.)
- Teresa's phone, purse and camera were found burnt in Avery's burn barrel. (Not sure how that implicates him and not a half dozen other people on his property.)
- There were tire radial wires among the bones. (Not sure how that implicates him and not a half dozen other people on his property.)
- A tooth and the rivet from her jeans were found in the fire pit with the bones (again, not sure how that implicates him more than just finding the bones there, but the guy wanted it mentioned.)
- He says ballistics matched the gun found in Avery's house to the bullet, but the ballistics expert testified it was inconclusive.
quote:If this is true, the bullet in the garage had to have been planted
I think he shot her 1 time in the head. Not sure where. Probably in the fire pit.
Last night, I decided to have some KFC just so I could throw a few bones into the fireplace where they burned for at least 5 hours. The bones were obviously much smaller than human bones, and wasn't protected in flesh, but they still survived pretty well. They didn't disintegrate on their own, but remained whole. I didn't stick my hand in there or anything, but I smashed one with a fire poker and they do now seem very brittle. I'll grab it out of the ashes today when I get home from work.
I'd say that a fire place (which may be hotter than an open fire in Wisconsin winter), is capable of burning bone to ashes given enough time, but I think that for something the size of a intact human, it would take a lot longer than 4-5 hours. Especially considering that Brendan said something about seeing it intact (and pink/peach colored). Maybe if he burned it longer throughout the night, and kept chopping it up with a shovel or something.
Another thing I cannot explain is why there would be hip bone in the quarry. For that to be the case, she would have to be really crispy there. Then there would be no reason burn her at all in the burn pit, but just leave everything at the quarry. Maybe he started burning her at the quarry, figured it was going to take too long couldn't be out there all night, and then used the shovel to cut her in half (chipping off hip bone in the process) so that he could scoop her into the burn barrel to carry back to his property to continue burning her more? But that wouldn't explain the color of the body in Brendan's testimony. She would have been black or something by that point.
I'd say that a fire place (which may be hotter than an open fire in Wisconsin winter), is capable of burning bone to ashes given enough time, but I think that for something the size of a intact human, it would take a lot longer than 4-5 hours. Especially considering that Brendan said something about seeing it intact (and pink/peach colored). Maybe if he burned it longer throughout the night, and kept chopping it up with a shovel or something.
Another thing I cannot explain is why there would be hip bone in the quarry. For that to be the case, she would have to be really crispy there. Then there would be no reason burn her at all in the burn pit, but just leave everything at the quarry. Maybe he started burning her at the quarry, figured it was going to take too long couldn't be out there all night, and then used the shovel to cut her in half (chipping off hip bone in the process) so that he could scoop her into the burn barrel to carry back to his property to continue burning her more? But that wouldn't explain the color of the body in Brendan's testimony. She would have been black or something by that point.
The forensics anthropologist said it would take 1.5 to 2.5 hours at 1700 degrees to get the bones to be where halbach's bones were.
quote:Which one? The defense expert witness or the prosecution expert witness? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the defense witness said that there is no way the bones could have reached that stage in an open flame in that amount of time. So it's a he said/she said.
The forensics anthropologist said it would take 1.5 to 2.5 hours at 1700 degrees to get the bones to be where halbach's bones were.
If the anthropologist said that it would take 1.5-2.5 hours for a intact body to reach that stage at the same temp as my fireplace, then I call total BS on that based on my experience yesterday. I bet if I threw an entire leg of ham in there, it would have taken forever.
quote:quote:Which one? The defense expert witness or the prosecution expert witness? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the defense witness said that there is no way the bones could have reached that stage in an open flame in that amount of time. So it's a he said/she said.
The forensics anthropologist said it would take 1.5 to 2.5 hours at 1700 degrees to get the bones to be where halbach's bones were.
If the anthropologist said that it would take 1.5-2.5 hours for a intact body to reach that stage at the same temp as my fireplace, then I call total BS on that based on my experience yesterday. I bet if I threw an entire leg of ham in there, it would have taken forever.
Defense witness. 1700 is pretty hot for an open flame. Tires are an accelerant but still.
If Avery was going to melt her, why wouldn't be have thrown hey in his smelter? Police examined it and ruled it had not been used. A fire pit makes no sense when he has a smelter he regularly uses.
Where was the smelter located?
I think the better question was how big was it? A smelter that is big enough to contain an entire human body would have to be large (and damn expensive). And sawing a body into parts as a big (and nasty) step to take and damn hard to hide.
Keep in mind chicken bones from fried chicken are a lot different from a recently killed human. First, bird bones are hollow to save weight. Second, fried chicken bones have been precooked for about 15 minutes in really hot oil (plus a secret blend of 11 herbs and spices).
But yeah, even fried chicken bones are hard to burn.
But yeah, even fried chicken bones are hard to burn.
Maybe Steven Avery added 11 herbs and spices first.
quote:
I think the better question was how big was it? A smelter that is big enough to contain an entire human body would have to be large (and damn expensive). And sawing a body into parts as a big (and nasty) step to take and damn hard to hide.
Big enough for the police to have investigated it and ruled it out.
Not to derail this thread, but Texas State U has a forensic anthropology program for stuff like this. One facility they have is a 26 acre site where they leave dead bodies to decompose naturally to help understand the process.
I find that gross, creepy, and fascinating all at the same time.
I find that gross, creepy, and fascinating all at the same time.
quote:
Maybe Steven Avery added 11 herbs and spices first.
I have worked with enough people from Wisconsin and spent enough time there to believe no one there knows anything about seasoning food (or corpses)
Weird. Steven's first ex-wife is now married to Peter Dassey, Brendan's dad. That has to be awkward.
quote:
Weird. Steven's first ex-wife is now married to Peter Dassey, Brendan's dad. That has to be awkward.
Maybe the investigator wasn't wrong about all the incest with the Avery's.
Teresa's father died when she was eight and her mom then married her dead husband's brother. So Teresa's 1st cousins were also her step brothers.
If your mom married your uncle, do you still call him Uncle?
I don't think the investigator was wrong at all about the incest stuff.
I think the one thing that got glossed over the most in the documentary is just exactly what kind of situation the Avery/Dassey clan really is or was back then. Not going into it helps make Steven and Brendan look better, and it also helps viewers naturally suspect others because of a lack of information on them.
I think the one thing that got glossed over the most in the documentary is just exactly what kind of situation the Avery/Dassey clan really is or was back then. Not going into it helps make Steven and Brendan look better, and it also helps viewers naturally suspect others because of a lack of information on them.
quote:If one were willing to chop a body up, then you wouldn't need a big one, but that gets into Jeffery Dahmer territory there. Most murderers aren't willing to go that far. It's doubtful Steven Avery was.quote:
I think the better question was how big was it? A smelter that is big enough to contain an entire human body would have to be large (and damn expensive). And sawing a body into parts as a big (and nasty) step to take and damn hard to hide.
Big enough for the police to have investigated it and ruled it out.
Incest ain't just an Appalachian thing.
quote:I agree. I'm trying to find info on it. Found this cool map of the area, though.quote:If one were willing to chop a body up, then you wouldn't need a big one, but that gets into Jeffery Dahmer territory there. Most murderers aren't willing to go that far. It's doubtful Steven Avery was.quote:
I think the better question was how big was it? A smelter that is big enough to contain an entire human body would have to be large (and damn expensive). And sawing a body into parts as a big (and nasty) step to take and damn hard to hide.
Big enough for the police to have investigated it and ruled it out.
Just the salvage yard:
Google Sat view: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Avery's+Auto+Salvage/@44.2534579,-87.6926831,561m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x88032f8641fb3e73:0xb85fa553298bb0bf?hl=en
I looked it up on Google earth last week. I noticed the Avery Auto Salvage sign on 147 shows up in satellite view, but it looks like it has been taken down in street view
I think they alleged that he did dismember her. Some of the evidence for the mutilation charge was that there were saws and tools in the fire pit.
I've wondered if she was killed somewhere else in a bloody fashion, left there for a few days. Then after a few days, he moves her (in her car) to the garage where he dismembers her before burning her and that's what Brendan helps clean up. There would still be lots of blood, but not nearly as much of a cleanup job as gunshot splatter. A believable amount of cleanup I would think.
Maybe he started to dismember her at the quarry and then realized it would be a long process, so he burned what he had done there and then finished it off in the garage.
I've wondered if she was killed somewhere else in a bloody fashion, left there for a few days. Then after a few days, he moves her (in her car) to the garage where he dismembers her before burning her and that's what Brendan helps clean up. There would still be lots of blood, but not nearly as much of a cleanup job as gunshot splatter. A believable amount of cleanup I would think.
Maybe he started to dismember her at the quarry and then realized it would be a long process, so he burned what he had done there and then finished it off in the garage.
There would be a lot more blood in the car if they dismembered her then moved her in it
After reading the Clay Travis take, count me in the Avery might have done it camp.
The fire was Oct. 31st. Not a couple days later.
Right, the only way it works is if he had another fire a couple of days later. That probably would have come out in the testimony, but I could see that as a question that never got asked.
And with that theory, she would have largely bled out, so less blood is what I'm thinking. It's definitely a stretch though.The partial remains at the quarry just don't make any sense.
And with that theory, she would have largely bled out, so less blood is what I'm thinking. It's definitely a stretch though.The partial remains at the quarry just don't make any sense.
quote:
I've wondered if she was killed somewhere else in a bloody fashion, left there for a few days. Then after a few days, he moves her (in her car) to the garage where he dismembers her before burning her and that's what Brendan helps clean up. There would still be lots of blood, but not nearly as much of a cleanup job as gunshot splatter. A believable amount of cleanup I would think.
Not if he drained her. He was a hunter. Hang. Drain. Then cut a couple days later.
That would be more believable
The Clay Travis piece did nothing for me. A good portion of his article was regurgitated from Kratz statements which were weak and/or barely relevant. He also creates strawman arguments that few people are using.
1. The police killed her. No one is saying that the police killed her.
2. There was a vast conspiracy by the cops. I don't think the conspiracy was vast. At most I think it was two or three people - Lenk, Colborn, and maybe Peterson and/or Kachinsky. The rest of these people were either incompetent and/or blinded by loyalty.
1. The police killed her. No one is saying that the police killed her.
2. There was a vast conspiracy by the cops. I don't think the conspiracy was vast. At most I think it was two or three people - Lenk, Colborn, and maybe Peterson and/or Kachinsky. The rest of these people were either incompetent and/or blinded by loyalty.
I think it's most likely that Avery killed her, the cops knew he killed her, but were afraid he would get off due to lack of evidence (and due to sympathy of his first 18 years in prison), and therefore planted evidence, including the car on his property.
quote:
I think it's most likely that Avery killed her, the cops knew he killed her, but were afraid he would get off due to lack of evidence (and due to sympathy of his first 18 years in prison), and therefore planted evidence, including the car on his property.
That's the middle ground between the truth and lies that I choose to believe as well.
I think Scott & Bobby are just as likely if not more likely to be the killers than Steve.
Clay Travis' article was poorly researched and thrown together. He likes to be the contrarian so he probably started it with the premise that he would go against the popular opinion from the start.
Clay Travis' article was poorly researched and thrown together. He likes to be the contrarian so he probably started it with the premise that he would go against the popular opinion from the start.
quote:
I think it's most likely that Avery killed her, the cops knew he killed her, but were afraid he would get off due to lack of evidence (and due to sympathy of his first 18 years in prison), and therefore planted evidence, including the car on his property.
This is what I think I posted probably 20 pages back, and still about how I feel about it.
Everything Travis brings up in his article about the documentary, the style, the presentation, who it included(and more importantly who it didn't), and what it did/didn't include was spot on.
The design of the 10 hour documentary of a trial and case that lasted months was to mold you into a frame of reference that Steven is innocent. The documentary did its job because not only on this thread, but there are millions out there who simply refuse to acknowledge that their frame of reference is changed when looking at the story due to how it was presented in the documentary.
They made you feel that way, so now you're off trying to "prove" your feeling is the correct one, ant dismissing very basic and logical aspects of the case because the last thing you naturally want to do at this point is bring it back to Steven.
That doesn't make it bad. Just means the doc was extremely effective. Great television and great discussion.
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