Finished this last night and my overall take was that Brendan was not guilty of anything other than being a mentally challenged child. As for Steven Avery... Maybe he did it and maybe he didn't, but the prosecution did NOT prove its case and the defense did an excellent job of introducing a lot of evidence that fostered doubt. As such I think it is an absolute crime that the jury returned a guilty verdict, and would love to hear how they justified that decision (especially considering the not guilty verdict on count two of mutilating the body).

Instead of investigating the dynamics around the distance of the areas bone fragments were found, the prosecution/investigation leveraged that info only for a dismemberment charge. This is the most overlooked and important circumstance in the entire case.

Additionally, you have the expert prosecution witnesses below making statements of certainty, that were essentially proven uncertain or reasonably doubtful.

1) Bone expert #1 says there is no way bones were moved to burn pile and that it was the initial and final destination of body, putting Steve in proximity. Bone expert 2 clears up that misconception with another seperate preceding real case of fragment movement happening and being unidentifiable. Bone expert #1 also clearly contradicts herself when they ask her about bones being gathered and transfered by investigators as evidence, in which case that movement is irrelevant to her theory of certainty.

2) FBI agent tests blood in car for test tube EDTA (anti-coagulant). He says its scientifically certain there was no presence of EDTA, when it appears there was never a calibration of detection levels established in the new and quick administration of test. Like any other test, it could be possible there were untraceable levels. In that case, the remaining swabs could be tested in future with testing tolerance advancement. (Steve's only DNA hope) The state or FBI would clearly be vested in not bailing out a bankrupt county or eroding public trust in law enforcement to this magnitude.

3) The ballistics expert tested a bullet fragment that very well could have been found in the garage, but it also could have been contaminated with traceable amounts Teresa's DNA if the fragment was grazed agaisnt the blood soaked carpet in her RAV4 trunk before being shiped to evidence room. Based on the way the key was "overlooked" but later found after Lenk discovered it by himself, this contamination could not be ruled out. Lenk also visited the car at night, but said he visited in daylight. Most damning was that Lenk didnt sign in on the mandatory checklist, which was not refuted and very incriminating together with his prior perjured testimony on timing of visit.

The officer's recorded "coaching" comments to ballistics expert on explicity linking bulllet to Teresa DNS instead of bullet to Avery or anyone else, dont help the prosecution's case. Nor does the contamination of the test with the ballistic lady's DNA. They deviated from the required contamination protocol without establishing that the protocol was outdated or not a relevant control, because it established a murder location.

*I wouldn't be surprised if there were some very bad things going on within the family on that "compound". One investigator testified to sexual molestation as a motive for his coerced confession of Brendon (huge no no). So I would not rule out that type of build up as a motive for Bobby/Scott to directly throw Steve under bus, or law enforcement to indirectly condem Steve by "enhancing" the case. It is probable (and confirmed by 1 juror) that these real recognitions on Steve's character by the jury, promoted false assumptions on the murder of Teresa. Its certain that contradicting testimony, conflict of interest, illegal/questionable evidence gathering/processing, and unethical media interaction from the prosecution all superceded Steve's right to a fair trial or appeal. That is the concern regarding the bigger picture on law enforcement and our judicial system as it relates to a citizen's constitutional rights to due process and innocence until proven guilt. Guilt was not proven, it was placed....whether suspensions are correct or not, that is wrong and extremely troubling.

and if Avery was a black man, you can bet Eric Holder and the DOJ would be all over these cops and this case.....can you imagine a white redneck cop planting a key on a black guy suing for millions?!

Not to mention the different jury of "peers" that would have been selected.

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and if Avery was a black man, you can bet Eric Holder and the DOJ would be all over these cops and this case.....can you imagine a white redneck cop planting a key on a black guy suing for millions?!

Not to mention the different jury of "peers" that would have been selected.

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Our justice and law enforcement system problems go beyond political affiliation. We need to stop trying to score political points with individual cases and deal with the broader issues regarding the integrity of our legal system. I believe a huge part of that is accountability for our law enforcement officers, lawyers and judges.

I'm so tired of people trying to turn everything into a narrow political issue for their team. That is what is great about this documentary. It's not about Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin. It's not about black people or white people or Republicans or Democrats.

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and if Avery was a black man, you can bet Eric Holder and the DOJ would be all over these cops and this case.....can you imagine a white redneck cop planting a key on a black guy suing for millions?!

Not to mention the different jury of "peers" that would have been selected.

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Our justice and law enforcement system problems go beyond political affiliation. We need to stop trying to score political points with individual cases and deal with the broader issues regarding the integrity of our legal system. I believe a huge part of that is accountability for our law enforcement officers, lawyers and judges.

I'm so tired of people trying to turn everything into a narrow political issue for their team. That is what is great about this documentary. It's not about Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin. It's not about black people or white people or Republicans or Democrats.

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Just because you don't like it doesn't make his statement any less true.

I feel like we're very close to the slope...can everyone please not let this turn into a cross-politics thread? In fact, I think there is a thread about the show on the Politics board for anyone interested in discussing that aspect of it.

We've done so good for so long.

What an incredible case. Ive caught up on this thread for the most part and wanted to give my opinion.

1. I find Brendans multiple testimonies to be very confusing. The transcript link posted earlier in this thread from November 27th (I think), is the most believable story of any of Brendans. He gets home, goes through his normal routine, and then sees the body in the fire that night. The clothes he sees in the pit conflicts with what Mr. Schmidt says she was wearing though. He also says she was stabbed in the back of her car (Which seems plausible standing alone), but there was not blood from a stab wound that was found in her car and the carpet wasn't missing. So I have to believe that is unlikely.

2. Brendans brother and step-dad are really concerning. Like mentioned earlier, they are each others alibi, their stories have been proven to be lies (or at a minimum flawed), and they seem to have it out for Steven despite their mother/wife (Barb) seemingly liking him just fine. Seems especially that the stepdad/bf guy had it out for Steven. They clearly had access to everything on those properties to pull this off themselves. Brendans brother claims to be home and see her in the yard, then leaves to go hunting. If that part is true, then that establishes that he knew where she was and could have caught her on her way out.

3. The cops ruined this case clearly. This would have been a MUCH more convincing murder case had the cops just gotten out of the way. Unfortunately, with the terrible evidence the cops had, I have to say Steven should have been found NOT GUILTY. Not innocent, but certainly not enough to convict him.

I just still can't get over the circumstantial evidence that ultimately convicted Avery and ZERO evidence that convicted the kid.

So the State of Wisconsin wants us to believe that Avery is a super advanced murderer capable of shooting a woman multiple times, dismembering her, and burning her remains at the property and only leaving a few pieces of DNA traces?

Let's be honest it would take that guy a month to figure out a Keurig Coffee maker much less how to decontaminate and hide all of the evidence.

So then i try to play devil's advocate and say he was indeed smart enough to get rid of all DNA evidence from his house and garage (which interviewed experts say would have been next to impossible). So he pulls that off and then is stupid enough to leave bones in his burn pile and put the car in almost plain view in his family's junk yard?

No matter how I look at the case presented I can not agree with the state with the facts they attempted to prove that she was a. murdered in the garage and dismembered there and b. that she was tied up to the bed, raped, stabbed, throat cut, and strangled.

Neither of those are believable given the evidence.

Seen most of that before, but outside of the DNA under the hood, none of that really does as much for me as it seems to do for Kratz.

I think the weakest part of his points is we are expected to believe that she was so creeped out by him but still went to Avery Rd., saw his trailer (if she somehow didn't recognize the address), and stuck around to take pictures?

As I'm sure everybody has said, and I'm sure there is already a subreddit discussing it, but

if she was killed the way they described against SA (in the Garage) wouldn't there be tons of blood in that concrete? And didn't they did dig up the concrete looking for blood, no evidence.

Also, if they found SA guilty, then that means she was shot in the garage or killed in the garage. Then how in the hell only a couple weeks later, find BD guilty when in that case they said she was locked up on the bed, slit throat. Should be a blood soaked mattress. Nothing.

Thats the part that im finding confusing.

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9. Ballistics said the bullet found in the garage was fired by Avery's rifle, which was in a police evidence locker since 11/6if the cops planted the bullet, how did they get one fired from HIS gun? This rifle, hanging over Aver's bed, is the source of the bullet found in the garage, with Teresa's DNA on it. The bullet had to be fired BEFORE 11/5did the cops borrow his gun, fire a bullet, recover the bullet before planting the SUV, then hang on to the bullet for 4 months in case they need to plant it 4 months later???

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If you are turning that property upside down, it wouldnt be hard to find a bullet fragment from Avery's gun. The question is why is Teresa's DNA on the bullet fragment, the ONLY DNA of hers in the entire garage???

1) The ONLY DNA of Teresa available onsite to be harvested was in the back of her car. (blood was never found anywhere else)

2) Now consider that Lt. Lenk signed OUT of car log at 10:41 PM on 11/05/05. (no record of him signing IN upon his arrival at 6:30 or 7PM)


3) The information that Teresa was shot in the head was not discovered until shortly before the March 2006 search warrants.

4) No bullet fragments were found in any search of garage between Nov 2005 to Feb 28th, 2006. Lenk signed into garage suspiciously between the lines on 03/01/06 after a new warrant based on headshot. The bullet fragment was officially located on 03/02/06 by Manitowoc County officer Dave Remiker (he knew right where to look).


5) Fassbender told the ballistic expert to "try to put her in his house or garage". Ballistic expert did not disclose that she deviated from the contamination protocol to place Teresa in garage via bullet.

To me that all sounds very familair to the Key that was mysteriously discovered. Kratz more or less concedes the Key was planted in his closing arguement to jury, and also doesnt mention this "lynch pin" car key in his 9 bullet points.


This guy was being sued civilly for millions. He was also on site and at the specifc location and time that both the key and the bullet were discovered. All this after it was publicly announced Manitowoc officers would have minimum involvement due to "conflict".