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Because they wanted to rape and kill her and put the bones behind Avery's house. So they got their stupid mom/wife to get the stupid guy the police hated to call and ask for the cute girl.

If you are planning the rape/murder of someone, are you going to get on the record calling a third person to get that person to come to your house?

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Wow.. you are really stretching. So they hatch this complicated plan merely to get back at Steve Avery? Or to kill this particular girl? Or to kill any girl? That's a lot of risk, don't you think? All it takes is for Steve to tell them on the phone, that "My brother asked me to ask for that girl to take a picture of his car" and their plan is blown. Or to have somebody else in the family witness it, for them to leave some of their DNA in the car, have some of her DNA left on them, etc. If Steve called her on his behalf, wouldn't he tell her, "oh.. you probably meant to talk to my brother, he lives over there." rather than host her himself? What did they do with the car between the time they killed her, and planted it on the property? What if somebody found it? How could they count on the police planting evidence against Steve Avery? Common sense would dictate that they would investigate it legit which would put them at considerable risk.

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I don't think it is that complicated.

"Hey Barb - let's get that minivan we don't use out of the yard. Get Steve to sell it on AutoTrader."
"Yeah"
"Yeah"
"Yeah"

I don't think Scott and Bobby are smart enough to plant evidence other than burning and moving the bones.

Scott was supposed to be at work when she came. It would make sense for Steve to be the one to get the sell sheet from her, especially since he had sold multiple cars through autotrader and worked full time at the junkyard.

I think Clarke95 is right and it was probably a crime of opportunity.

But I find it less plausible that the guy standing to make dozens of millions of dollars would commit that crime after calling and specifically asking a third party witness for the victim to come to his house.

And judging by the new lawyer's tweets, I think they seem to suspect the ex-boyfriend that broke into Teresa's voicemail and erased the VMs. I forgot where I read it, but the last call she received when we know she was alive had some code associated with it that made it look like she blocked the caller. I don't know if I can verify that.

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It makes absolutely zero sense. The family is full of dumbasses. For you to be right, they would have to be masterminds.

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I don't think anyone planned it ahead of time. Kratz' theory that Avery called autotrader to get her to his junkyard so he could kill her makes no sense.

But Scott having Avery sell the car and using that to set him up makes as much sense as Avery calling to get her sent there. And Scott has more motive than Avery.

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My contention is that he called her in order to pick her up, not kill her. She said hell no, he got angry, and he killed her. It's not that complicated.

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Avery is dumb, but there is no way he thought a young, cute 25 year old photographer was going to go out with him.

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No, this makes zero sense. This is where he'd have to be a mastermind and have everything fall his way perfectly in order to avoid life in prison. The notion that he had more motive is also laughable.

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The other males in the Avery compound had the same motive as Avery - rape of an attractive young woman. But Scott/Bobby also hated Avery. That would be more motive. Not laughable at all.

The person that had more motive than that was the ex-boyfriend that had stalkerish tendencies and broke into her voicemail and deleted her VMs.

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My contention is that he called her in order to pick her up, not kill her. She said hell no, he got angry, and he killed her. It's not that complicated.

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Avery is dumb, but there is no way he thought a young, cute 25 year old photographer was going to go out with him.

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No, this makes zero sense. This is where he'd have to be a mastermind and have everything fall his way perfectly in order to avoid life in prison. The notion that he had more motive is also laughable.

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The other males in the Avery compound had the same motive as Avery - rape of an attractive young woman. But Scott/Bobby also hated Avery. That would be more motive. Not laughable at all.

The person that had more motive than that was the ex-boyfriend that had stalkerish tendencies and broke into her voicemail and deleted her VMs.

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You are so willing to write off the confession from prisoners that Avery said he wanted to build a torture chamber and kill women yet you are so willing to do come up with any theory other than Steven killing her


If you're looking at it purely from a defense lawyers POV then fine, but if you are just looking at all the info, then you're being very selective on what you want to believe.

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You are so willing to write off the confession from prisoners that Avery said he wanted to build a torture chamber and kill women yet you are so willing to do come up with any theory other than Steven killing her

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It isn't a confession. It was the unsubstantiated statement from a felon.

I'm not ruling out that Steven killed her. But I think it is just as likely that someone else did. Other than the ex-boyfriend, no one really has strong motive.

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If you're looking at it purely from a defense lawyers POV then fine, but if you are just looking at all the info, then you're being very selective on what you want to believe.

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I don't think it is that ridiculous to not believe Brendan's confessions or uncorroborated hearsay from convicted felons.

I don't see how I am being selective other than not blinding accepting the evidence that is tainted in doubt in some way (the key, his blood, his DNA under the latch, the bullet.)

I think it is important to look at it like a jury should. Avery has a presumption of innocence. I agree with his attorneys that he did not have that in this case.

If we took the word of every person in prison, the places would be empty. To use the words of Ken Kratz, if you are going to take the word of a convicted felon, do so at your own peril.

As has been pointed out, there plenty of motive to go around among the men that lived on the Avery property. As soon as the cops found out Teresa Halbach had been there shortly before she was reported missing, the cops pretty much focused solely on Steven Avery and barely looked at the others. There are to many peculiarities and oddities around the physical evidence as to cast doubt on the certainty of the conviction of Steven Avery.

Guitarsoup has kept discussion civil for a long time. Now we have people calling his argument laughable. Please don't make texags suck. This has been a good discussion so far.

Who has called soup stupid? Granted I've been paying more attention to the game tonight so I may have missed it

If Steven Avery wanted to build a torture device for women, you would have thought he would have built it ready for someone like Teresa Halbach. I wonder where he hid it.

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Who has called soup stupid? Granted I've been paying more attention to the game tonight so I may have missed it

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I edited my post to clarify it was "laughable"

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If Steven Avery wanted to build a torture device for women, you would have thought he would have built it ready for someone like Teresa Halbach. I wonder where he hid it.

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Probably in the smelter that totally wasn't used, even though it was easily the best place to completely dispose of a body.

I think means and opportunity are more important for the murder.

I think motive is more in play for the potential cover up.

Steven may not have thought Teresa was in to him, but it doesn't mean he didn't want to see an attractive woman at his place while his gf was in jail.

The ex Bf is shady, but if he killed her the burned her body and put it in SA's burn pit that would be some serious psycho sh*t.

Interesting story about the father of a cop that was a juror. He was also a sheriff's volunteer during Avery's rape trial.

http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/makingamurdererjurorvolunteer.html

In jury selection, Wardman was asked if his sergeant son "had any involvement in the Steven Avery case?"
Wardman replied, "Yeah. He's standing outside the door."
He was asked, "Okay. So, um, so he's had duduties here in in the courthouse, right?"
Wardman: "Yes."

This may have been because, during questioning, Wardman, who used to work in a foundry, said that he had been arrested once for OWI 10 years ago, during which an officer from another agency took $3 cash he had and then lied under oath about Wardman "robbing" him, suggesting Wardman might be open to a framing defense despite his ongoing ties to the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department. Asked if he thought officers could plant evidence or alter evidence, he said in jury selection "depends if they didn't like him." He also said he had "no opinion" about Avery's guilt or innocence and that he believed he could give Avery a fair shake.
"I ain't really got no view," he said.

"Do you think that, um do you think the police officers would come into court and lie?" Wardman was asked during jury selection. "Yeah," he said. "Because they can get away with it. Some judges believe them." Juries, too, he agreed.

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I think means and opportunity are more important for the murder.

I think motive is more in play for the potential cover up.

Steven may not have thought Teresa was in to him, but it doesn't mean he didn't want to see an attractive woman at his place while his gf was in jail.

The ex Bf is shady, but if he killed her the burned her body and put it in SA's burn pit that would be some serious psycho sh*t.

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If the ex did it, I doubt he moved the body onto the Avery lot. Burn it at the quarry where the charred bones were found, maybe. But he is about the only person with a motive that didn't have easy and unsuspicious access to the salvage yard.

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Clearly you are desperate to find somebody other than Steven Avery to blame her murder on. If not Scott/Bobby than maybe the ex-boyfriend. If not him, then who's next?

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I'm not desperate to find anyone else. There were numerous people with the same opportunity and motive as Avery that cannot be discounted as a suspect. I'm not willing to exclude any of them as suspects, including Avery.

Calm down.

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Guitarsoup has kept discussion civil for a long time. Now we have people calling his argument laughable. Please don't make texags suck. This has been a good discussion so far.

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It was a nice request, Burdizzo. Thanks for the effort. It is a shame we can't all follow your decorum.

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In summary, Avery was smart enough to scrub his garage of every trace of a murder except for one bullet, spread the remains over three burn areas, but not smart enough to see $36 million staring him in the face.

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He scrubbed the garage completely clean, except for his own DNA and deer blood, both of which were found all over the garage.

He somehow selectively only cleaned out her DNA, while leaving the entire garage to look like an absolute pigsty.

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In summary, Avery was smart enough to scrub his garage of every trace of a murder except for one bullet, spread the remains over three burn areas, but not smart enough to see $36 million staring him in the face.

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He scrubbed the garage completely clean, except for his own DNA and deer blood, both of which were found all over the garage.

He somehow selectively only cleaned out her DNA, while leaving the entire garage to look like an absolute pigsty.

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He didn't murder her on his property. Had to be somewhere else.

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In summary, Avery was smart enough to scrub his garage of every trace of a murder except for one bullet, spread the remains over three burn areas, but not smart enough to see $36 million staring him in the face.

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He scrubbed the garage completely clean, except for his own DNA and deer blood, both of which were found all over the garage.

He somehow selectively only cleaned out her DNA, while leaving the entire garage to look like an absolute pigsty.

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He didn't murder her on his property. Had to be somewhere else.

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It seems peculiar he would kill her somewhere else and bring her remains back to the burn pit in his backyard.

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In summary, Avery was smart enough to scrub his garage of every trace of a murder except for one bullet, spread the remains over three burn areas, but not smart enough to see $36 million staring him in the face.

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He scrubbed the garage completely clean, except for his own DNA and deer blood, both of which were found all over the garage.

He somehow selectively only cleaned out her DNA, while leaving the entire garage to look like an absolute pigsty.

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He didn't murder her on his property. Had to be somewhere else.

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It seems peculiar he would kill her somewhere else and bring her remains back to the burn pit in his backyard.

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Agree. That makes no sense.

Why would Avery kill her at the quarry [where her charred pelvis was] where he had some nice solitude, burn her there, then bring her back to his garage to reburn, then just leave the ashes/bones right there feet from his bedroom?

He tried burning her at the quarry, but that was harder and took longer than he expected. It would look weird for him to be out there all night, so he put her remains in the barrel, drove them to the burn pit and finished the job under the guise of burning trash and "evening out his lawn".

IIRC were the bones not moved?

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IIRC were the bones not moved?

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Bones were found in three different locations. They had to be moved.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3394135/Making-Murderer-Steven-Avery-s-prison-fianc-e-reveals-split-refuses-convert-Christianity-says-convinced-innocent.html

Interview with his jailhouse ladyfriend.

Some really far out there theories. This was blogged in 2009 about a mysterious German man.

http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html


Of course, it could be the Zodiac Killer, too.

His former fianc seems very level-headed. Great article in the Daily Mail.

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He tried burning her at the quarry, but that was harder and took longer than he expected. It would look weird for him to be out there all night, so he put her remains in the barrel, drove them to the burn pit and finished the job under the guise of burning trash and "evening out his lawn".

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But no evidence of a transport of any charred remains in the RAV4. I would imagine it would have to be in the RAV4 since her blood is present there.

If it is not in the RAV4 then it had to be a 2 person job and some charred remains would have to be in the 2nd vehicle. Who had the capabilities of working in twos?
Steven Avery and nephew?
Some of SA family (brothers/nephew combination)
Any combination of cops?
Ex bf and her Roomate or brother?


Now look at who had access to the Avery property for 8 days?

Cops and search party.... Just saying. It's a real whodunit?

I think she was transported in the burn barrel from the quarry to the burn pit. That is why her DNA was in there too. He probably would use his truck for that and her Rav 4 was hidden in the woods. The cops, suspecting Avery all along, checked near his property, found her Rav4, planted Avery's blood in it, and towed it to Avery's lot in the middle of the night.

Has anyone talked about the possibility of alien activity here?

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Some really far out there theories. This was blogged in 2009 about a mysterious German man.

http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html


Of course, it could be the Zodiac Killer, too.

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Someone needs to test those garments for Halbach's DNA.

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I think she was transported in the burn barrel from the quarry to the burn pit. That is why her DNA was in there too. He probably would use his truck for that and her Rav 4 was hidden in the woods. The cops, suspecting Avery all along, checked near his property, found her Rav4, planted Avery's blood in it, and towed it to Avery's lot in the middle of the night.

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The cops didn't find the RAV4, a volunteer search party spent 5 minutes on the 40 acre lot and found the only "hidden" car on the property.

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I think she was transported in the burn barrel from the quarry to the burn pit. That is why her DNA was in there too. He probably would use his truck for that and her Rav 4 was hidden in the woods. The cops, suspecting Avery all along, checked near his property, found her Rav4, planted Avery's blood in it, and towed it to Avery's lot in the middle of the night.

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The cops didn't find the RAV4, a volunteer search party spent 5 minutes on the 40 acre lot and found the only "hidden" car on the property.

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I'm talking before that. Colburn called in the plates for the Rav4 several days before it was found on Avery's lot. My theory is that he suspected Avery from the start, went to the area to search for signs of her, found the Rav4, called in the plates to confirm it was hers, planted Avery's blood inside, and then had it towed to Avery's lot to be found later by the search party.

And with the claims of personal attacks, this thread's conversion to https://www.reddit.com/r/makingamurderer is complete

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If it is not in the RAV4 then it had to be a 2 person job and some charred remains would have to be in the 2nd vehicle. Who had the capabilities of working in twos?

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A lot of people have pointed out what looked like tow damage on the Rav 4 when it was discovered by the search party, so it wouldn't have to be a two person job. Any of the Averys presumably had access to a tow truck and would know how to use one.

Here's something I hadn't really thought about. Is the only key we know about the one that was found in Avery's trailer? Were there keys that had been burned with her belongings?