*** GoT: House of the Dragon ***

290,651 Views | 2838 Replies | Last: 8 mo ago by The Dog Lord
Brian Earl Spilner
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The thing that stood out to me is right at the start of the scene, Rhaenyra hasn't even done anything yet, she looks at Daemon for all of two seconds, and Alicent is already giving her the death glare. Great development of her character in seconds.

Alicent sucks.
bobinator
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I guess my question for everyone is, do we like this show for what it is, or are we still thinking it's laying groundwork?

I was not super encouraged by it looking like another decent time jump is coming before/during the next episode.
The Porkchop Express
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For people blessed with dragons, they spend way too much time not flying their dragons.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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I'm enjoying it tremendously. But I also understand it's building to the real conflict, which I assume will be mostly seen in S2 and beyond.

Personally I think it's done just as good a job as S1 of GoT of setting up our characters and setting the table for the upcoming war, granted they are very different in that we have the huge time jumps.

I'm just glad we don't have any more recasting left after next episode with the kids. (Or that's what I'm assuming anyway.)
Phrasing
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The Porkchop Express said:

For people blessed with dragons, they spend way too much time not flying their dragons
Dragon fuel is expensive......
Phrasing
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

I'm enjoying it tremendously. But I also understand it's building to the real conflict, which I assume will be mostly seen in S2 and beyond.

Personally I think it's done just as good a job as S1 of GoT of setting up our characters and setting the table for the upcoming war, granted they are very different in that we have the huge time jumps.

I'm just glad we don't have any more recasting left after next episode with the kids. (Or that's what I'm assuming anyway.)
Well said. I feel the same - I have been loving it, but am ready to settle in to a fixed cast of actors and really develop their characters. Very much looking forward to the upcoming episodes and equally as bummed we only have 3 left.
Ol Jock 99
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This story is about the internal family conflict and political fallout of the Targaryen empire in the ~middle of their power. I'm really enjoying it for what it is.
HossAg
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I love this show
bobinator
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I think this is my issue. The time jumps seem like a cop out on actual character development. There's no subtlety to it like on GOT. We just fast forward from set piece to set piece, and the characters are just that way now. We don't see their slow development like on GOT.

I dunno, I'm still watching, I'm just kind of thinking out loud on here. Without a big outside thread, which we sort of had one and then Daemon already took care of it, I just kind of find myself thinking "who cares which unlikable person ultimately wins?"

In GOT there was always this backdrop of impending doom that gave more weight to the political squabbling.
emando2000
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D'Arcy's off the show life doesn't bother me but her posts are definitely political. Heteronormative involves sexual orientation and D'Arcy clearly does not align with it in her life. Rhaenyra isn't struggling with heteronormativity, she wants the throne and she's straight. She's a tomboy and desires the opposite sex in a partner. Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no indication that she has any interest in a sexual relationship in a woman. The fact that Westeros would not follow a woman queen is a completely separate issue.

Now if you're reaching and trying to make it fit into the show. I guess it works if you ignore the fact that Rhaenyra isn't homosexual.
powerbelly
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I think we will get much more character development once the time jumps end. I almost wish they had just started from episode 6 or so. That way we wouldn't even have this time jump nonsense.
Ol Jock 99
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Outside of Cole (and even him to a degree), I don't get the lack of character development argument. You have seen all the main characters grow and evolve. Yeah, it has been quick, and there are some required assumptions because of the time jump (most impacting Cole's change IMHO), but the development is there.
powerbelly
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It's happening, it's just not subtle.
Brian Earl Spilner
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I think the entirety of the reason for episodes 1-5 was just to understand how Alicent became who she became and her hatred for Rhaenyra. And I get it, cause there's no way we would understand her character the way we do now without that backstory.
CoachRTM
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bobinator said:

I think this is my issue. The time jumps seem like a cop out on actual character development. There's no subtlety to it like on GOT. We just fast forward from set piece to set piece, and the characters are just that way now. We don't see their slow development like on GOT.

I dunno, I'm still watching, I'm just kind of thinking out loud on here. Without a big outside thread, which we sort of had one and then Daemon already took care of it, I just kind of find myself thinking "who cares which unlikable person ultimately wins?"

In GOT there was always this backdrop of impending doom that gave more weight to the political squabbling.
I guess the only alternatives were :

1. Skip the backstory all-together and start the series with the king dying and the SHTF (or just before)
2. Spend 2-3 years on where we've gotten to this point - would give much more time for backstory, but probably seem really slow.

(I haven't read the books, this is me just presuming what the future story holds)

Those being the other options - I'm good with what they're doing - we're getting the necessary backstory on the major players in the world. When SHTF shortly, we have the benefit of knowing their motivations... but it didn't take us years to get there.
powerbelly
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CoachRTM said:

bobinator said:

I think this is my issue. The time jumps seem like a cop out on actual character development. There's no subtlety to it like on GOT. We just fast forward from set piece to set piece, and the characters are just that way now. We don't see their slow development like on GOT.

I dunno, I'm still watching, I'm just kind of thinking out loud on here. Without a big outside thread, which we sort of had one and then Daemon already took care of it, I just kind of find myself thinking "who cares which unlikable person ultimately wins?"

In GOT there was always this backdrop of impending doom that gave more weight to the political squabbling.
I guess the only alternatives were :

1. Skip the backstory all-together and start the series with the king dying and the SHTF (or just before)
2. Spend 2-3 years on where we've gotten to this point - would give much more time for backstory, but probably seem really slow.

(I haven't read the books, this is me just presuming what the future story holds)

Those being the other options - I'm good with what they're doing - we're getting the necessary backstory on the major players in the world. When SHTF shortly, we have the benefit of knowing their motivations... but it didn't take us years to get there.
I feel like GOT did a good job of getting us to where we needed to be without big jumps in season 1. I don't mind it, but feel like it could have been done better.
bobinator
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I mean we'll see. I'm skeptical of how much of this backstory will ultimately be necessary to understand the character motivations, but maybe.

I'm not trying to convince anyone else it's bad or anything, just found myself watching the most recent episode and thinking "do I care about this?" and was wondering where people were at on this show.
BowSowy
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bobinator said:

I mean we'll see. I'm skeptical of how much of this backstory will ultimately be necessary to understand the character motivations, but maybe.

I'm not trying to convince anyone else it's bad or anything, just found myself watching the most recent episode and thinking "do I care about this?" and was wondering where people were at on this show.
Personally, I found the show to be pretty slow up until this last week. It's weird because it has the time jumps but also felt like it moved at a glacial pace. This last episode pulled me back in, though.

I have been meaning to rewatch S1 of GOT to see if it started slow like this one did. I suspect it did, but can't really remember.
bobinator
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GOT started SUPER slow.

At the same time, it also didn't. The very first scene of GOT was the white walkers, which kind of gave the whole show a sense of peril.
Brian Earl Spilner
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I don't know how many people watch Succession, but last episode in particular felt very much like that show. They tend to jump to big, important events where all our main characters are gathered about 3-4 times per season, and I thought it was perfectly done.

Skip all the in-between and just hit on anything major we need to know in the dialogue between the characters.
canadiaggie
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bobinator said:

I guess my question for everyone is, do we like this show for what it is, or are we still thinking it's laying groundwork?

I was not super encouraged by it looking like another decent time jump is coming before/during the next episode.


It's almost like if in S1 of Game of Thrones there were 7 episodes setting up and depicting Robert's rebellion and then 8-9-10 jumped into A Game of Thrones - a good stopping point would be Ned finding out that Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella are *******s. I wouldn't have hated that btw
canadiaggie
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One of the other things to consider is that because of Fire and Blood's narrative styles, characters are like historical figures as you might read about them in a history book. I can honestly say the show has done an amazing job of bringing those characters out of "history" and making them 3D people.


With GoT I had the books to colour my perceptions of the characters and I already had an attachment to them well before the show progressed into its second season (binged all the books after S1)
PascalsWager
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George's original story is a contrived global warming allegory. So it works WAY better at setup than actual payoff. Because NOTHING matters. Nondescript, unspeaking, unclearly motivated white walkers are looming (and since they don't speak we can't ever even know why or what about them without some silly magical creature filling in the gaps). The setup is only interesting part in that you can forget that they're coming and enjoy the political intrigue in the show. But the payoff is always going to be either they kill everyone and then what was the point or they are easily overcome with the main characters surviving and then again what was the point. Can't blame D&D for that.

This story is way better. A Sharp, concise, medieval-like political thriller with dragons is WAY better.

But as I type this out, I realize that if someone put THIS budget into a 12 episode season of the actual true history of the first crusade starting at council of Clermont in 1095, it would do REALLY well!
deer corn
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I think the time jumps are a financial thing really. D&D mucked up the last season of GOT and HBO execs were probably hesitant to do more of the story to get it to a certain point to see if viewers came back...which they did, and why Season 2 was announced just after HOTD Ep 1.
The Porkchop Express
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I'm hoping if this is a big enough hit they continue it for multiple seasons up to the recent history where the dragons suddenly stopped growing. I think Tyrion has a line in the book or the show where said at some point the dragons were not getting any bigger than dogs/cats.

Since the show is named House of the Dragon, they could pluck out lots and lots of story lines to tell, especially with the time jumps already established. The Blackfyre Rebellions, the dummy who drank the wildfire thinking he would become a dragon, and then tell the whole story of Robert's Rebellion from the Targ point of view - the tragedy of Sumerhall, the Defiance of Duskendale, etc. Give me young Barristan Selmy, young Aerys, young Tywin, etc., and go straight into the Rebellion. Call back Elrond Stark to play young Ned again . I need to see a real version of Rhaegar vs. Robert in battle.

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canadiaggie
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The Porkchop Express said:

I'm hoping if this is a big enough hit they continue it for multiple seasons up to the recent history where the dragons suddenly stopped growing. I think Tyrion has a line in the book or the show where said at some point the dragons were not getting any bigger than dogs/cats.

Since the show is named House of the Dragon, they could pluck out lots and lots of story lines to tell, especially with the time jumps already established. The Blackfyre Rebellions, the dummy who drank the wildfire thinking he would become a dragon, and then tell the whole story of Robert's Rebellion from the Targ point of view - the tragedy of Sumerhall, the Defiance of Duskendale, etc. Give me young Barristan Selmy, young Aerys, young Tywin, etc., and go straight into the Rebellion. Call back Elrond Stark to play young Ned again . I need to see a real version of Rhaegar vs. Robert in battle.


The First Blackfyre Rebellion would make for a fantastic miniseries. I think they have other shows in the works that are going to cover some of the events you mentioned - there's a Dunk and Egg show in the works for sure.

javajaws
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emando2000 said:

D'Arcy's off the show life doesn't bother me but her posts are definitely political. Heteronormative involves sexual orientation and D'Arcy clearly does not align with it in her life. Rhaenyra isn't struggling with heteronormativity, she wants the throne and she's straight. She's a tomboy and desires the opposite sex in a partner. Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no indication that she has any interest in a sexual relationship in a woman. The fact that Westeros would not follow a woman queen is a completely separate issue.

Now if you're reaching and trying to make it fit into the show. I guess it works if you ignore the fact that Rhaenyra isn't homosexual.

^ This. TCTTS, I just don't get your point. If anything Rhaenyra's fight is against the patriarchy and the right of inherited rule. I just don't see how Rhaenyra the character is interested in any sort of heteronormal type of conflict. Then again, maybe I am just rusty on all my leftist buzzword definitions of the week.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin
bobinator
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I guess this is part of my issue. The only thing about this show that makes it a fantasy show is the dragons (and the sister can see the future?) and they've mostly been used as window dressing so far. Granted that GOT also took a while to really get the magic rolling, but again, supernatural threat right from the jump.

Allicent's kid claiming Vhagar was probably the coolest thing that's happened on the show so far for me.

If it's just going to be a political drama I think I'd rather it be set in the actual past than in this fantasy world, but maybe more magic is going to be involved as we get going.
StinkyPinky
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The Porkchop Express said:

For people blessed with dragons, they spend way too much time not flying their dragons.
Exactly! Especially with all of the ale and wine that is consumed. I'd be down for the daily buzzed flyovers.
The Porkchop Express
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It's the wrong word to use, because its definition and modern usage is so closely tied to sexual orientation.

More correctly, Rhaenyra and the actress who play her don't agree with traditional gender roles that were law punishable by death in the time in history that the show most clearly emulates - that only men could rule and that a woman was always going to be passed over by literally any male heir with the tiniest claim ot the throne.

The actress doesn't believe that she should find a husband and cranking out babies, which plenty of people still think is a woman's role in society. There's a connection, but gender roles is a smaller part of the overarching definition of heteronormal, so lumping the characters together like that is a stretch.
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The Porkchop Express
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Bonzer103 said:

The Porkchop Express said:

For people blessed with dragons, they spend way too much time not flying their dragons.
Exactly! Especially with all of the ale and wine that is consumed. I'd be down for the daily buzzed flyovers.
I would resolve every border war like the BS in the Stepstones with full-on dragon fire. This BS with the Brackens and the Blackwoods? come out, let's talk, now I've burned your 2 patriarchs to ash - whoever's next in line, make an agreement or your next.
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StinkyPinky
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The Porkchop Express said:

Bonzer103 said:

The Porkchop Express said:

For people blessed with dragons, they spend way too much time not flying their dragons.
Exactly! Especially with all of the ale and wine that is consumed. I'd be down for the daily buzzed flyovers.
I would resolve every border war like the BS in the Stepstones with full-on dragon fire. This BS with the Brackens and the Blackwoods? come out, let's talk, now I've burned your 2 patriarchs to ash - whoever's next in line, make an agreement or your next.
We think alike (i.e. know how to have a good time)
canadiaggie
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We got two Maegor the Cruel fans up in here clearly
Phrasing
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canadiaggie said:

We got two Maegor the Cruel fans up in here clearly
Say what you want about his methods, but the dude got **** done.......
Definitely Not A Cop
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The Porkchop Express said:

It's the wrong word to use, because its definition and modern usage is so closely tied to sexual orientation.

More correctly, Rhaenyra and the actress who play her don't agree with traditional gender roles that were law punishable by death in the time in history that the show most clearly emulates - that only men could rule and that a woman was always going to be passed over by literally any male heir with the tiniest claim ot the throne.

The actress doesn't believe that she should find a husband and cranking out babies, which plenty of people still think is a woman's role in society. There's a connection, but gender roles is a smaller part of the overarching definition of heteronormal, so lumping the characters together like that is a stretch.


You know who they could have addressed heteronormativity with if they had aligned more closely with the books in the original series? Both Cersei and Dany.

I guess they had Reek's sister though.

I would say Loras too, but the show basically nixed any kind of conflict resolution with that entire season long plotline of him being persecuted for being gay with Cersei blowing up the sept.
 
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