Seven Costanza said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Seven Costanza's point is that signing a Max with Dallas before he is a RFA and entering into RFA are the exact same things for the Mavericks and KP. With either of those options, he is signing a Max with Dallas 100% guaranteed (because if another team offers him Dallas will obviously match). So it's pointless for him to enter RFA unless he is signing the qualifying offer.

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I promise I'm not trying to be difficult and I agree with the spirit of what you're saying but there are 3 distinct options:

1) Sign QO enter 2020 as UFA
2) Don't sign QO enter 2020 as RFA
3) Sign extension this summer and avoid free agency all together

The difference between option 2 & 3, is that if KP looks like anything less than a max type player or suffers another major injury, the Mavs or any other team will be hesitant to offer that max that will currently be on the table.

--->The risk profile is what is different which may or may not lend itself to a different end result (KP signing a max deal with the Mavs vs signing a lesser deal). All of which points to what Danny said in that KP will be motivated to sign that extension and my point that this will all be moot by summertime.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but #2 is incorrect. He can decline the QO and become a RFA/sign extension this summer (which will mean he's a Mav long term). The risk for the Mavs is they will be signing him long term without seeing him return to action first. The risk for KP is that the Mavs might not be good.

Or he can take the one year QO and become unrestricted in 2020. The risk for KP is that he doesn't return to form and shows that he isn't worth a max after next season (or gets hurt again and never gets to sign a big valuable deal).

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EDIT: oh now i see, yes the timing is different. If declines to sign the QO, he will go into this summer as a RFA. You're right.

Now I'm confused about the usage of super-max or even needing the bird exception in this case. If Porzingis can sign this off-season pre-injury for roughly the same amount as he can sign next off-season post-injury, what's his incentive to wait? I think we are all in ageeement that the Mavs would max or match any amount necessary.

500,000ags said:

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Now I'm confused about the usage of super-max or even needing the bird exception in this case. If Porzingis can sign this off-season pre-injury for roughly the same amount as he can sign next off-season post-injury, what's his incentive to wait? I think we are all in ageeement that the Mavs would max or match any amount necessary.

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The incentive to wait is if Porzingis doesn't want to be in Dallas. The second he signs an extension the Mavs have control over him. If he signs the QO, the Mavs will then be unable to trade him and he can enter next summer as a FA and sign with whatever team he wants.

Okay, that makes sense.

Tomorrow is a year to the day of Porzingis tearing his ACL. By the time free agency hits Porzingis will be 17 months into a 15-18 month recovery. If at that time the Mavs feel like he has progressed health wise enough to command a max contract it probably means there weren't any major setbacks and that he'd be ready to play the day that contract is signed. The ACL tear is a concern for the picks and cap space given up (the cap space is a minor thing as the majority of the cap taken on will have disappeared by next off-season), not so much for the contract that Porzingis will receive.

Signing the QO would be stupid for Porzingis. The news that he would sign the QO after he was traded was almost certainly related to the distrust and frustration he had experienced with New York and didn't reflect on the Mavericks. New York failed miserably at putting the pieces of a championship team together, the Mavs have already made deft moves to move closer to that goal.


It'd be nice if the Mavs could clear some cap space for this off-season through Barnes to go out and acquire a defensive three point shooting PG or wing or a defensive rebounding center.

With all of the (deserved) hype about Kristaps, does anyone think Hardaway could be a present surprise in this trade? He's young, a really good FT shooter, and 19 points a game is nothing to sneeze at (although, I don't watch a lot of Knicks basketball so I don't know how much of that is just garbage points).

At minimum he's an upgrade over Matthews, right?

Seven Costanza said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Seven Costanza's point is that signing a Max with Dallas before he is a RFA and entering into RFA are the exact same things for the Mavericks and KP. With either of those options, he is signing a Max with Dallas 100% guaranteed (because if another team offers him Dallas will obviously match). So it's pointless for him to enter RFA unless he is signing the qualifying offer.

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I promise I'm not trying to be difficult and I agree with the spirit of what you're saying but there are 3 distinct options:

1) Sign QO enter 2020 as UFA
2) Don't sign QO enter 2020 as RFA
3) Sign extension this summer and avoid free agency all together

The difference between option 2 & 3, is that if KP looks like anything less than a max type player or suffers another major injury, the Mavs or any other team will be hesitant to offer that max that will currently be on the table.

--->The risk profile is what is different which may or may not lend itself to a different end result (KP signing a max deal with the Mavs vs signing a lesser deal). All of which points to what Danny said in that KP will be motivated to sign that extension and my point that this will all be moot by summertime.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but #2 is incorrect. He can decline the QO and become a RFA/sign extension this summer (which will mean he's a Mav long term). The risk for the Mavs is they will be signing him long term without seeing him return to action first. The risk for KP is that the Mavs might not be good.

Or he can take the one year QO and become unrestricted in 2020. The risk for KP is that he doesn't return to form and shows that he isn't worth a max after next season (or gets hurt again and never gets to sign a big valuable deal).

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This is correct. Thus, signing an extension with Mavs or going into RFA this summer are identical options.

The qualifying offer won't happen. It will either be a 4 year max or a 2 year max + player option. The 2 year max would be if Porzingis wants to see how he likes Dallas and keep himself flexible. I'm guessing he will take the 4 year max due to injury concerns.

NoahAg said:

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With all of the (deserved) hype about Kristaps, does anyone think Hardaway could be a present surprise in this trade? He's young, a really good FT shooter, and 19 points a game is nothing to sneeze at (although, I don't watch a lot of Knicks basketball so I don't know how much of that is just garbage points).

At minimum he's an upgrade over Matthews, right?

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Yea I can't say i watched much Knicks bball either but from what I've gathered around NBA/Mavs Twitter; Hardaway has alot of similar tendencies as Harrison Barnes (ball stopping, iso, type player). Of course it's hard to judge any player that's on the worst team in the NBA. Hopefully he'll be able to adjust to the Mavs system and benefit from having a player like Luka next to him.

The player I'm pretty excited about is Courtney Lee. I remember him from his days in Houston and loved him as a player. Now, that was ages ago and I'm sure his defensive prowess has declined substantially since then but over his career he's damn near averaged 40% from 3pt range. That immediately makes him the best sharp shooter on the roster. Definitely an asset to have.

Overall, I'm actually kinda stoked about all the players we got. Even the acquisition of Burke as a 3rd string PG (assuming Luka is now our full time 1) is pretty nice.

M.C. Swag said:

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NoahAg said:

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With all of the (deserved) hype about Kristaps, does anyone think Hardaway could be a present surprise in this trade? He's young, a really good FT shooter, and 19 points a game is nothing to sneeze at (although, I don't watch a lot of Knicks basketball so I don't know how much of that is just garbage points).

At minimum he's an upgrade over Matthews, right?

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Yea I can't say i watched much Knicks bball either but from what I've gathered around NBA/Mavs Twitter; Hardaway has alot of similar tendencies as Harrison Barnes (ball stopping, iso, type player). Of course it's hard to judge any player that's on the worst team in the NBA. Hopefully he'll be able to adjust to the Mavs system and benefit from having a player like Luka next to him.

The player I'm pretty excited about is Courtney Lee. I remember him from his days in Houston and loved him as a player. Now, that was ages ago and I'm sure his defensive prowess has declined substantially since then but over his career he's damn near averaged 40% from 3pt range. That immediately makes him the best sharp shooter on the roster. Definitely an asset to have.

Overall, I'm actually kinda stoked about all the players we got. Even the acquisition of Burke as a 3rd string PG (assuming Luka is now our full time 1) is pretty nice.

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Supposedly hardaway did really well in Atlanta.

I'm glad Mathews is gone tho.

Hardaway is one of the worst contracts in the league. He has some talent, but there is a reason why the Knicks were so desperate to get him off the books. To put it in perspective, in order to get a team to take on Hardaway and Lee in a separate deal, the Knicks would have had to give that team a future first round pick (maybe even two first round picks). And even then a team may not agree to take them on.

I'm still thrilled with the deal, but the Lee and Hardaway contracts are really really bad.

Well yea, I don't think anyone thinks he's worth his contract. Just curious to see how he fits with the team as a player though.

mavsfan4ever said:

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Hardaway is one of the worst contracts in the league. He has some talent, but there is a reason why the Knicks were so desperate to get him off the books. To put it in perspective, in order to get a team to take on Hardaway and Lee in a separate deal, the Knicks would have had to give that team a future first round pick (maybe even two first round picks). And even then a team may not agree to take them on.

I'm still thrilled with the deal, but the Lee and Hardaway contracts are really really bad.

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Interesting. The Four Pointer with Jake Kemp and Machine, in talking about this deal, discussed how it really isn't as bad as it seems- especially when it compares to Wes Matthews. Hardaway's stats for this season are generally better than Wes- he's averaging 19 points per game. And, he won't have as big a chip on his shoulder at being more of a role player than the primary ball handler/scoring option, and insist he plays at the expense of others like Wes has been known to do. But yes, his contract is longer and does go up next season and the season afterwards.

True Anomaly said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Hardaway is one of the worst contracts in the league. He has some talent, but there is a reason why the Knicks were so desperate to get him off the books. To put it in perspective, in order to get a team to take on Hardaway and Lee in a separate deal, the Knicks would have had to give that team a future first round pick (maybe even two first round picks). And even then a team may not agree to take them on.

I'm still thrilled with the deal, but the Lee and Hardaway contracts are really really bad.

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Interesting. The Four Pointer with Jake Kemp and Machine, in talking about this deal, discussed how it really isn't as bad as it seems- especially when it compares to Wes Matthews. Hardaway's stats for this season are generally better than Wes- he's averaging 19 points per game. And, he won't have as big a chip on his shoulder at being more of a role player than the primary ball handler/scoring option, and insist he plays at the expense of others like Wes has been known to do. But yes, his contract is longer and does go up next season and the season afterwards.

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The second best thing about that trade was getting rid of Matthews, his ego, and especially that horrible contract.

Matthews wasn't a horribly contract. He is a free agent after this year. Expiring contracts are never horrible and are actually assets to be used in trades.

True Anomaly said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Hardaway is one of the worst contracts in the league. He has some talent, but there is a reason why the Knicks were so desperate to get him off the books. To put it in perspective, in order to get a team to take on Hardaway and Lee in a separate deal, the Knicks would have had to give that team a future first round pick (maybe even two first round picks). And even then a team may not agree to take them on.

I'm still thrilled with the deal, but the Lee and Hardaway contracts are really really bad.

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Interesting. The Four Pointer with Jake Kemp and Machine, in talking about this deal, discussed how it really isn't as bad as it seems- especially when it compares to Wes Matthews. Hardaway's stats for this season are generally better than Wes- he's averaging 19 points per game. And, he won't have as big a chip on his shoulder at being more of a role player than the primary ball handler/scoring option, and insist he plays at the expense of others like Wes has been known to do. But yes, his contract is longer and does go up next season and the season afterwards.

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Yea, I've heard Jake act like he's impressed with Hardaway, which is just mind boggling. I would think Jake is the type of person who would understand just how bad the contracts we took on are. I'm not saying that Hardaway isn't a slight improvement over Wes, he probably is. But the length and amount of his contract make him a huge negative asset. Jake is being very short sighted with his analysis and not looking at the long term view of these contracts.

I listened to the Dunc'd On podcast covering the trade, and they both said that you could view this trade as the Knicks gaining 4 first round picks. They get two from the Mavs, and they are able to unload Hardaway and Lee, which would usually cost them two first round picks if they tried to unload them. That's how bad these contracts are.

mavsfan4ever said:

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Matthews wasn't a horribly contract. He is a free agent after this year. Expiring contracts are never horrible and are actually assets to be used in trades.

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I was referring to when Cuban gave him the max deal right after a torn Achilles.

Lee's contract isn't that bad. It's $12MM next year and then he's a free agent.

Yea it's nit nearly as bad as hardaway. But it's bad given his age and ability at this point in his career. Just think what you could do with that space this year or next if you didn't have the hardaway and Lee contracts. But I agree that it's worth it to get Porzingis. We weren't getting him without taking on those bad contracts.

Grapesoda2525 said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Matthews wasn't a horribly contract. He is a free agent after this year. Expiring contracts are never horrible and are actually assets to be used in trades.

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I was referring to when Cuban gave him the max deal right after a torn Achilles.

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Ah, gotcha. Yea the overall contract was bad.

What would you pay THJ? 14 mil? Because the contracts today look insane, but that's relative to what they were 3 years ago rather than the norm today. Chris Paul is going to be making 40 million in 2 years. 40 million. The that contract is WAY worse than THJ at 18 mil.

Between Capela, Harden, and Paul the Rockets are going to be near maxed out versus the cap and they are absolutely screwed if they can't trade some expirings to bring talent in around Harden. Mavs on the other hand will have cap space every free agency period (near max level) for the next 3 years. The Mavs don't have a bad contraxt right now. Not really, because there's only so much you can effectively spend in an off-season.

THJ's contract in some ways forces the Mavs to be disciplined for the next 3 off seasons, which is great.

And he's overpaid, but he's not a travesty of a player.

mavsfan4ever said:

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Grapesoda2525 said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Matthews wasn't a horribly contract. He is a free agent after this year. Expiring contracts are never horrible and are actually assets to be used in trades.

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I was referring to when Cuban gave him the max deal right after a torn Achilles.

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Ah, gotcha. Yea the overall contract was bad.

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Yeah most games I watched it would piss me off. I just need to vent.

Mathews would clank way too many shots at the end of close games and make us lose.

Mathews would always defend the other teams best player, try to protect a lead at the end of the game,and usually fail.

Mark followill would rave about Matthews great defense on whoever he was guarding and say "Matthews played great defense, but he just made an incredible shot!"

I'd sit there thinking......we're basically paying this guy the max to miss clutch shots and "make it difficult" on the other teams super stars, but they usually score anyway when it counts?

Great job Cuban. I'm glad that huge mistake is in New York. Please don't bring him back.

I loved the knicks trade tho. Feeling much better about things.

Grapesoda2525 said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Grapesoda2525 said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Matthews wasn't a horribly contract. He is a free agent after this year. Expiring contracts are never horrible and are actually assets to be used in trades.

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I was referring to when Cuban gave him the max deal right after a torn Achilles.

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Ah, gotcha. Yea the overall contract was bad.

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Yeah most games I watched it would piss me off. I just need to vent.

Mathews would clank way too many shots at the end of close games and make us lose.

Mathews would always defend the other teams best player, try to protect a lead at the end of the game,and usually fail.

Mark followill would rave about Matthews great defense on whoever he was guarding and say "Matthews played great defense, but he just made an incredible shot!"

I'd sit there thinking......we're basically paying this guy the max to miss clutch shots and "make it difficult" on the other teams super stars, but they usually score anyway when it counts?

Great job Cuban. I'm glad that huge mistake is in New York. Please don't bring him back.

I loved the knicks trade tho. Feeling much better about things.

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Wes before the injury could D up the best player. He would just get torched by them, but still play good defense against the 2nd or 3rd option.

PatAg said:

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Grapesoda2525 said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Grapesoda2525 said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Matthews wasn't a horribly contract. He is a free agent after this year. Expiring contracts are never horrible and are actually assets to be used in trades.

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I was referring to when Cuban gave him the max deal right after a torn Achilles.

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Ah, gotcha. Yea the overall contract was bad.

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Yeah most games I watched it would piss me off. I just need to vent.

Mathews would clank way too many shots at the end of close games and make us lose.

Mathews would always defend the other teams best player, try to protect a lead at the end of the game,and usually fail.

Mark followill would rave about Matthews great defense on whoever he was guarding and say "Matthews played great defense, but he just made an incredible shot!"

I'd sit there thinking......we're basically paying this guy the max to miss clutch shots and "make it difficult" on the other teams super stars, but they usually score anyway when it counts?

Great job Cuban. I'm glad that huge mistake is in New York. Please don't bring him back.

I loved the knicks trade tho. Feeling much better about things.

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Wes before the injury could D up the best player. He would just get torched by them, but still play good defense against the 2nd or 3rd option.

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I know

Cuban paid for the player before the injury and not the guy we got. That's why I was so frustrated about the whole thing.

Donnie mentioned he has known THJ his whole life. I forgot about the Golden State connection.

I'm not sure how to answer the question of what I would pay hardaway bc I wouldn't want hardaway on my team period, especially not at 18+ million per year. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic when I say he's the worst contract in the league. The nba podcast nerda all seem to say that.

From what I've heard he's a low efficiency chucker, the exact type of player who kills winning basketball (think Harrison Barnes type player). And he's always been that way. He's a career 41% shooter. This year he's even worse at 38%. And he's apparently a terrible defender. The people who are excited about him and who are acting like his contract isn't that bad are just looking at his points per game in my opinion. I think that's an antiquated stat to look at in today's NBA.

In my opinion hardaway is just a necessary evil that we have to put up with to get KP. Maybe rick will get him to play team ball and accept a much lesser role. But that would be completely changing who he is, so I'll believe it when I see it. But maybe there is a little hope of that happening bc he's never really been on a good team before.

I'll also admit that I haven't seen him play a ton and am going off of others' opinions. Those are opinions of guys who are pretty well respected, but maybe I will have a different opinion once I start watching him every game.

mavsfan4ever said:

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I'm not sure how to answer the question of what I would pay hardaway bc I wouldn't want hardaway on my team period, especially not at 18+ million per year. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic when I say he's the worst contract in the league. The nba podcast nerda all seem to say that.

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lol c'mon. You're way overreacting. Just off the top of my head:

• Andrew Wiggins
• John Wall
• Chris Paul
• Blake Griffin's will quickly sour
• Georgie Deng is making the same money as THJ but is 29 and a freaking backup
• Hayward's contract is looking worse and worse
• JOAKIM NOAH IS OWED MONEY FOR THE NEXT 4 YEARS LMAO

I could go on. THJ isn't even top 25 worst deals. I understand you don't like the player or contract but it's not that bad. He's 26 and about to enter his prime. And after next year, his $18m will be viewed as a trade asset. He'll be even easier to move than Wes.

Harrison Barnes' $26m option is worse to me than 3 years of THJ at $18m because THJ is only 15 months away from being a trade asset.

The Hardaway contract is not that bad. If he were a free agent this year I bet he could still get $8M - $10M as an offensive spark plug off the bench. It is not ideal to pay him $17M but he will still give the Mavs some value back. Compare that to the John Wall situation where the Wizards will pay him $160M to miss 25% of that contract then come back and play at half speed as a 30 year old. Hell, Harrison Barnes is making $24M, I doubt that he could get much more than $15M - $17M as a free agent being a 4th best starter. He is likely just as overpaid as Hardaway.

i Agree his contract is nowhere near as bad as wall, Paul, and Wiggins. Griffin could be bad in the future, but he's playing great right now. Hardaway's contract is on par with Deng (hardaway should probably be a backup player if he's not on a terrible team). I think Noah got stretched, so that's not apple to apples.

Also, almost all of the awful contracts are awful because of age and injuries. Hardaway hasn't been injured and isn't old and his contract is still really bad.

So maybe he's not top 5 worst contracts, but it's definitely close. It's hard to find many worse. It's the 3 years that's the killer. He's not going to help anyone be a great team so paying that much money to someone like that for three years really hamstrings a team. I'd much rather just owe him a ton of money next year and then be done with him.

And I agree the Barnes contract is and has been a huge overpay.

Go look at Hardaway's production with the Hawks. It's not nearly as bad as it was with the Knicks and that's more akin to what he's going to be doing with the Mavericks than anything he's done with the Knicks. He's going from being the #1 scoring option to the third option this year and the 4th option next year. Every player the Mavs acquired in this trade is getting bumped down a notch or two as far as their responsibilities. That's why I'm not as pessimistic about his future with the Mavs as you are. He's not worth 18 mil, but he's not a totally worthless player.

Ideally I'd like to see the Mavs move Barnes and MAYBE Powell before the deadline to clear space this off-season so they could go after someone like Middleton or Vucevic or both if Kristaps really does take the QO instead of the max deal. Doesn't look like that's going to happen though.

hph6203 said:

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Go look at Hardaway's production with the Hawks. It's not nearly as bad as it was with the Knicks and that's more akin to what he's going to be doing with the Mavericks than anything he's done with the Knicks. He's going from being the #1 scoring option to the third option this year and the 4th option next year. Every player the Mavs acquired in this trade is getting bumped down a notch or two as far as their responsibilities.

Ideally I'd like to see the Mavs move Barnes and MAYBE Powell before the deadline to clear space this off-season so they could go after someone like Middleton or Vucevic or both if Kristaps really does take the QO instead of the max deal. Doesn't look like that's going to happen though.

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Courtney Lee wasn't even playing for the knicks this year I think.

Supposedly Porzingis is healthy enough to play. They held Porzingis and Lee out to tank even harder.

Mavs are probably hoping Burke can offset the loss of barea. Hardaway can be a better / more likeable version of Matthews. I don't know what to expect from Lee because he's played for so many different teams and I don't think he's suited up this year.

These guys aren't spares tho. I'm hoping they can play well enough and we can win enough games to pay Atlanta back. We owe 3 first round draft picks to teams, It's time to start paying them off.

Lee can shoot! That's about all i know and care about. If Luka can find him in the corner with an open look, that 3 is good.

Porzingis is apparently healthy enough to play, but they're re-working his body composition to prevent further injury. It'll be interesting if the "not playing this year" changes if the Mavs start looking like they're going to make the playoffs. I don't think that'll happen, but there are teams that are punting on the season. Clippers, Pelicans and the Lakers look like they might fall apart.

Hopefully the Mavs can pull off the Barnes to Kings (Randolph?) trade that's had a little bit of smoke.

You can't look too much into someones stats when they are on horrible teams. Their usage rate is going to be higher, they are having to take way more shots than they would on a good team, and not be selective at all.
I predict he is going to pour points in playing with Luka, personally. His contract is still pretty crazy, but that cant be changed.

If you look at the players coming in from the Knicks they all shot way more contested shots than any of the players on the Mavs. It's crazy.