I think they've done a great job of getting us to understand/sympathize with Viserys, Rhaeneyra, and Dameon so far.
Otto clearly the villain up to now.
Otto clearly the villain up to now.
*** GoT: House of the Dragon ***
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Last: 8 mo ago by The Dog Lord
I'd say most women watching the show are pretty pro Rhaenyra (except my wife, who can't stand her underbite) because:powerbelly said:You think a lot of people are rooting for the moody teenager?PatAg said:I would have thought most people would be rooting for Rhaenyra already.THE_CHOSEN_ONE said:
Watching GoT I already started caring about and rooting for some of the characters like Ned and Tyrion after a few episodes. After a few episodes of this show I don't feel like I care about or am rooting for anyone.
1) She's getting constantly overlooked in a male-dominated system
2) She stands up for herself and gets what she thinks she wants only for ..
3) She gets blindsided by her best friend and her own family
4) She decides she's giving a hot guy a job where she can keep him around a lot.
5) She starts not giving 2 fuchs about what she says or does and destroys that rich bich with the pug at the party.
Life is better with a beagle
Interesting, I see Dameon being more villainous and Otto not really as a villain nor a protagonist yet.Brian Earl Spilner said:
I think they've done a great job of getting us to understand/sympathize with Viserys, Rhaeneyra, and Dameon so far.
Otto clearly the villain up to now.
Otto has extreme self-interest but he's just a schemer. The fact that his schemes are in opposition to the main protagonist doesn't make him evil, since Rhaenyra isn't really clearly a "good guy" either in the vein of early Daenerys or Jon Snow. I'd differentiate him from Littlefinger in that Littlefinger deliberately orchestrated a civil war so he could marry his childhood bff and/or her similar-in-appearance teenage daughter. Otto on the other hand seems like he would rather avert a civil war if he can, even if he does want Aegon on the throne.PatAg said:Interesting, I see Dameon being more villainous and Otto not really as a villain nor a protagonist yet.Brian Earl Spilner said:
I think they've done a great job of getting us to understand/sympathize with Viserys, Rhaeneyra, and Dameon so far.
Otto clearly the villain up to now.
Daemon is just nuts though.
Otto pimped his daughter out to the king without a 2nd thought, whereas the king felt pretty terrible trying to get Rhaenyra to marry the Lannister. I think that's a crucial distinction that puts Otto in the terrible human category.
Otto, the guy that suggested Rhae be matched to the 2 year old Aegon.
Phrasing said:
I don't "root" for anyone in Succession. They all seem like miserable people. But it's my favorite show on TV and I can't wait for the next season. It's just good story telling. Same with HOTD. No true protagonist yet, but still a great show.
One of the best shows on TV and we really can't compare the writing on it to this late term abortion.
tk for tu juan said:
Otto, the guy that suggested Rhae be matched to the 2 year old Aegon.
I would say Otto is clearly scummy and self-serving but not evil, he hasn't crossed into that villainous territory yet. If he tries having Rhaenyra assassinated, or taking some overtly villainous action, he'll go into bad guy territory, but as far as I can tell he isn't there yet.
canadiaggie said:JJxvi said:It's not like he murdered a puppy or anythingGoose06 said:
We are 3 episodes in people. I'd have to go back and watch GOT season 1 to recall, but I can't imagine we were all attached to Tyrion after 3 episodes. It was probably around the 3rd episode when we are made to believe Tyrion was the one who tried to kill Bran. So there were probably plenty of people rooting against Tyrion.
I mean 3 episodes in why were we rooting for Ned Stark exactly? Episode 1 he didn't want to go be the Hand. Episode 2 he leaves for Kings Landing with Bran laying in bed. Episode 3 has he even made it to Kings Landing yet? Why were we rooting for him at that point?
I think where Ned won over show watchers was.....refusing to participate in an assassination attempt on Daenerys,
It's always amusing to me to recall Robert's determination that Daenerys needed to be killed off, and Ned's stubborn refusal to even consider being a part of it.
Fast forward a few years and Dany is flying around on her dragon burning tens of thousands of innocent people alive as she destroys King's Landing, and I imagine Robert's ghost looking on and saying to Ned's, "I told you, you ****ing idiot."
AgE2theBONE said:canadiaggie said:JJxvi said:It's not like he murdered a puppy or anythingGoose06 said:
We are 3 episodes in people. I'd have to go back and watch GOT season 1 to recall, but I can't imagine we were all attached to Tyrion after 3 episodes. It was probably around the 3rd episode when we are made to believe Tyrion was the one who tried to kill Bran. So there were probably plenty of people rooting against Tyrion.
I mean 3 episodes in why were we rooting for Ned Stark exactly? Episode 1 he didn't want to go be the Hand. Episode 2 he leaves for Kings Landing with Bran laying in bed. Episode 3 has he even made it to Kings Landing yet? Why were we rooting for him at that point?
I think where Ned won over show watchers was.....refusing to participate in an assassination attempt on Daenerys,
It's always amusing to me to recall Robert's determination that Daenerys needed to be killed off, and Ned's stubborn refusal to even consider being a part of it.
Fast forward a few years and Dany is flying around on her dragon burning tens of thousands of innocent people alive as she destroys King's Landing, and I imagine Robert's ghost looking on and saying to Ned's, "I told you, you ****ing idiot."
Very true.
But given the book context - Ned's revulsion at the rape/murder of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys by the Mountain and Amory Lorch, understandable.
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
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I dont know what to make of it all, but the journey is interesting so far.
Then again, after his treatment at the beheading, he might enjoy some popcorn watching her torch the whole place.
Then again, after his treatment at the beheading, he might enjoy some popcorn watching her torch the whole place.
Hell, if Ned had told him, he might have gotten so angry that he overcame death and killed Cersei himselfThe Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
The Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
1. Let your dragons grow up.
2. Get an army (which she did on her own and over the objections to her plan by Jorah and Selmy).
3. Use your army to conquer cities and ultimately acquire a navy.
4. Sail to Westeros and burn down King's landing.
I don't think she needed Varys or Tyrion to tell her how to take Westeros. Every bit of advice Tyrion gave her was a disaster anyway, and Varys was trying to kill her.
The Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
True.
Ned screwed up by not supporting Robert to deal with Dany. And he screwed up by not telling Robert his kids weren't really his. And made both those mistakes out of fear of kids being killed.
Instead, countless thousands were killed.
Nice job Eddard.
AgE2theBONE said:The Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
1. Let your dragons grow up.
2. Get an army (which she did on her own and over the objections to her plan by Jorah and Selmy).
3. Use your army to conquer cities and ultimately acquire a navy.
4. Sail to Westeros and burn down King's landing.
I don't think she needed Varys or Tyrion to tell her how to take Westeros. Every bit of advice Tyrion gave her was a disaster anyway, and Varys was trying to kill her.
I thought dicking around in Essos was her idea between steps 3 and 4
she's been dicking around Essos for 22 years now. I do not think she is ever going to leave.canadiaggie said:
I thought dicking around in Essos was her idea between steps 3 and 4
canadiaggie said:AgE2theBONE said:The Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
1. Let your dragons grow up.
2. Get an army (which she did on her own and over the objections to her plan by Jorah and Selmy).
3. Use your army to conquer cities and ultimately acquire a navy.
4. Sail to Westeros and burn down King's landing.
I don't think she needed Varys or Tyrion to tell her how to take Westeros. Every bit of advice Tyrion gave her was a disaster anyway, and Varys was trying to kill her.
I thought dicking around in Essos was her idea between steps 3 and 4
Well the conquering cities was a lot of dicking around. Plus getting captured by the Dothraki and subsequently increasing her army a smidge.
Fly your dragons to Westeros where Stannis's non-burned fleet is waiting with 30 of the ships equipped with the giant bolt flyers that specialize in wasting unprepared dragons.AgE2theBONE said:The Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
1. Let your dragons grow up.
2. Get an army (which she did on her own and over the objections to her plan by Jorah and Selmy).
3. Use your army to conquer cities and ultimately acquire a navy.
4. Sail to Westeros and burn down King's landing.
I don't think she needed Varys or Tyrion to tell her how to take Westeros. Every bit of advice Tyrion gave her was a disaster anyway, and Varys was trying to kill her.
Life is better with a beagle
I just re watched Season 1. Hind sight 20/20 and all, but for Ned:
(1) Don't say yes to Robert to be his Hand
(2) Don't go snooping around in Robert's past
(3) Don't tell Cersei you know about the kids.
(4) Don't refuse Renly's help.
He messed up every step of the way. So frustrating
Edit:
Even if you feel compelled to do #1 and #2…. There's no reason for # 3 and #4. So dumb on his part
(1) Don't say yes to Robert to be his Hand
(2) Don't go snooping around in Robert's past
(3) Don't tell Cersei you know about the kids.
(4) Don't refuse Renly's help.
He messed up every step of the way. So frustrating
Edit:
Even if you feel compelled to do #1 and #2…. There's no reason for # 3 and #4. So dumb on his part
If Renly had offered to help secure the Red Keep and vow to support Stannis's claim, Ned would have agreed, right? His biggest mistake was thinking other people would act honorably. Namely Littlefinger.
I also would like the alternate history of Ned just riding out with Sansa, Arya, and his house guard after the fight with Jamie Lannister, and fortifying the North and declaring it independent. No way Stannis or the Lannisters would have attacked Winterfell when they were at each other's throats.Phrasing said:
I just re watched Season 1. Hind sight 20/20 and all, but for Ned:
(1) Don't say yes to Robert to be his Hand
(2) Don't go snooping around in Robert's past
(3) Don't tell Cersei you know about the kids.
(4) Don't refuse Renly's help.
He messed up every step of the way. So frustrating
Edit:
Even if you feel compelled to do #1 and #2…. There's no reason for # 3 and #4. So dumb on his part
Of course there still would have been the issue of the White Walkers, although you would assume in that scenario that the dragons never come North, which would impede the WW getting through the wall to a degree.
Life is better with a beagle
I recently binged through the first 5 seasons of GoT and I'm amazed yet again at how those seasons were the most incredible thing I'd ever seen on television.
Phrasing said:
I just re watched Season 1. Hind sight 20/20 and all, but for Ned:
(1) Don't say yes to Robert to be his Hand
(2) Don't go snooping around in Robert's past
(3) Don't tell Cersei you know about the kids.
(4) Don't refuse Renly's help.
He messed up every step of the way. So frustrating
Edit:
Even if you feel compelled to do #1 and #2…. There's no reason for # 3 and #4. So dumb on his part
I got the feeling that Littlefinger was setting him up for failure either way.
Ned being dumb af probably was the difference between hightailing it out of King's Landing and living to fight another day vs how it actually played out.
Joke I learned recently:AgE2theBONE said:
I recently binged through the first 5 seasons of GoT and I'm amazed yet again at how those seasons were the most incredible thing I'd ever seen on television.
How many seasons of Game of Thrones does it take to change a light bulb?
8, if you want to screw it completely!
i actually thought 2-7 were great... 1 was a little slow for me, and 8, well, it was ok till the last episode or 2.AgE2theBONE said:
I recently binged through the first 5 seasons of GoT and I'm amazed yet again at how those seasons were the most incredible thing I'd ever seen on television.
That's not true. He was going to tell Robert, but Robert got gored by a hog before he could tell him. His mistake was telling Cersei what he knew with the thought she'd flee the city, when instead she orchestrated Robert's death, gathered power, and took control of the throne.AgE2theBONE said:The Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
True.
Ned screwed up by not supporting Robert to deal with Dany. And he screwed up by not telling Robert his kids weren't really his. And made both those mistakes out of fear of kids being killed.
Instead, countless thousands were killed.
Nice job Eddard.
bluefire579 said:That's not true. He was going to tell Robert, but Robert got gored by a hog before he could tell him. His mistake was telling Cersei what he knew with the thought she'd flee the city, when instead she orchestrated Robert's death, gathered power, and took control of the throne.AgE2theBONE said:The Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
True.
Ned screwed up by not supporting Robert to deal with Dany. And he screwed up by not telling Robert his kids weren't really his. And made both those mistakes out of fear of kids being killed.
Instead, countless thousands were killed.
Nice job Eddard.
The crazy part is that Cersei's plot to have Robert killed was just to get him really drunk and HOPE something went wrong during the hunt.
Am I forgetting something in the book? Was there a contingency?
Ned sees Robert before he dies. Ned signs the damn will and puts his seal on it, because he changes "JOffrey" to "My Heir" with Ned serving as protector of the realm until the heir takes over, thinking he could get Stannis in there before the Lannisters acted.bluefire579 said:That's not true. He was going to tell Robert, but Robert got gored by a hog before he could tell him. His mistake was telling Cersei what he knew with the thought she'd flee the city, when instead she orchestrated Robert's death, gathered power, and took control of the throne.AgE2theBONE said:The Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
True.
Ned screwed up by not supporting Robert to deal with Dany. And he screwed up by not telling Robert his kids weren't really his. And made both those mistakes out of fear of kids being killed.
Instead, countless thousands were killed.
Nice job Eddard.
If he had told him right then and there what was really going on, Robert would have the Kinsguard kill Jamie, Cersei, and all three kids before you could say "incest". He might have swtiched it up and had Renly named Heir instead of Stannis once he knew, but anything's better than Joffrey on the throne with Cersei behind it.
Life is better with a beagle
The Porkchop Express said:Ned sees Robert before he dies. Ned signs the damn will and puts his seal on it, because he changes "JOffrey" to "My Heir" with Ned serving as protector of the realm until the heir takes over, thinking he could get Stannis in there before the Lannisters acted.bluefire579 said:That's not true. He was going to tell Robert, but Robert got gored by a hog before he could tell him. His mistake was telling Cersei what he knew with the thought she'd flee the city, when instead she orchestrated Robert's death, gathered power, and took control of the throne.AgE2theBONE said:The Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
True.
Ned screwed up by not supporting Robert to deal with Dany. And he screwed up by not telling Robert his kids weren't really his. And made both those mistakes out of fear of kids being killed.
Instead, countless thousands were killed.
Nice job Eddard.
If he had told him right then and there what was really going on, Robert would have the Kinsguard kill Jamie, Cersei, and all three kids before you could say "incest". He might have swtiched it up and had Renly named Heir instead of Stannis once he knew, but anything's better than Joffrey on the throne with Cersei behind it.
Directly from the book. In the show, he pauses, gives a quick look toward Robert, then it shows him writing "my heir". Even after the letter is done, Robert mentions his son, and you can see Ned struggling with whether to tell him.Quote:
"Robert …" Joffrey is not your son, he wanted to say, but the words would not come. The agony was written too plainly across Robert's face; he could not hurt him more. So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said "my son Joffrey," he scrawled "my heir" instead. The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me. "What else would you have me say?"
I don't believe so, but then again, we only get Cersei chapters starting in book 3 or 4, so we don't know her mindset, we only have Lancel's confession in book 2. It looking like an accident was always key.canadiaggie said:bluefire579 said:That's not true. He was going to tell Robert, but Robert got gored by a hog before he could tell him. His mistake was telling Cersei what he knew with the thought she'd flee the city, when instead she orchestrated Robert's death, gathered power, and took control of the throne.AgE2theBONE said:The Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
True.
Ned screwed up by not supporting Robert to deal with Dany. And he screwed up by not telling Robert his kids weren't really his. And made both those mistakes out of fear of kids being killed.
Instead, countless thousands were killed.
Nice job Eddard.
The crazy part is that Cersei's plot to have Robert killed was just to get him really drunk and HOPE something went wrong during the hunt.
Am I forgetting something in the book? Was there a contingency?
Considering they got away with poisoning Jon Arryn and had Pycelle in their back pocket, you'd think Cersei could have dumped a bucket of the Tears of Lys into Robert's drink basically any time given how much that dummy was drinking all day long.
Life is better with a beagle
I mean, one of the recurring themes with Cersei is that she considers herself an intellectual equal to her father (and thus the one deserving of ruling, be it Casterly Rock or Westeros as a whole), but consistently proves that she's not nearly as smart as she thinks she is.
100%. One of the best parts of AFFC is watching Cersei continuously try her masterful strategy and have it blow up in her face over and over again.bluefire579 said:
I mean, one of the recurring themes with Cersei is that she considers herself an intellectual equal to her father (and thus the one deserving of ruling, be it Casterly Rock or Westeros as a whole), but consistently proves that she's not nearly as smart as she thinks she is.
The lesbian stuff is good too.
Life is better with a beagle
bluefire579 said:That's not true. He was going to tell Robert, but Robert got gored by a hog before he could tell him. His mistake was telling Cersei what he knew with the thought she'd flee the city, when instead she orchestrated Robert's death, gathered power, and took control of the throne.AgE2theBONE said:The Porkchop Express said:
Ned's problem was he pussed out on telling Robert that none of the kids were actually his. If he had told him that on his death bed, he would have either made Ned or Stannis the king, and the 7 kingdoms would have been run with an iron fist, all the BS squabbling kicked to the curb, and Dany wouldn't have known jack squat about how to take Westeros because Varya and Tyrion's asses would have been dead or at the Wall.
True.
Ned screwed up by not supporting Robert to deal with Dany. And he screwed up by not telling Robert his kids weren't really his. And made both those mistakes out of fear of kids being killed.
Instead, countless thousands were killed.
Nice job Eddard.
You're absolutely right. Telling Cersei was the stupidest thing he ever did.
And ffs he could've told Kat the truth about Jon. He had to have known at some point he could trust her.
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