*** SW: The Last Jedi - FULL SPOILERS BE IN HERE ***

356,348 Views | 3129 Replies | Last: 7 mo ago by Definitely Not A Cop
bangobango
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Dr. Teeth said:

StrongbadAg said:

They don't get that (for me personally and I think alot of others) - I want a gritty Batman Begins / Dark Knight / Die Hard style of Star Wars... Not a Guardians of the Galaxy / Age of Ultron: Civil Dysfunction / Prequals type of Star Wars...
I'm good either way. Or both.

I would actually like a Jedi/Bond-type spy movie set on Canto Bight. A Master and Commander style naval battle with Star Destroyers? Hell yes. A Indiana Jones style movie with a group of young force users searching for the lost artifacts of ancient Jedi? Sign me up.

Just don't **** with the original mythology or characters. If you're going to put Luke Skywalker in your movie, don't make him a murderous cowardly ***hole, because he sure as hell wasn't that before. Don't make Admiral ****ing Ackbar cannon fodder and introduce a new admiral we have never seen or heard of before to play the heroic ship commander martyr. No Yondu Mary Poppins y'all Leia.

You want to create your own characters and story, fine. Create a new setting for it. You play with the legends, ****ing do it respectfully. Abrams did, and with all it's flaws, TFA was a pretty good Star Wars movie. Watching it the first time in theaters, I felt like I was 10 years old again. With this one, halfway in I just wanted it to be over.

This is what I am saying. You want a new movie with no ties to the past, fine. Set it 200 years in the future from TLJ and let's go.

You want to draw in all us middle aged folks who grew up wanting to be Han Solo and Luke Skywalker? Then you better sure as hell treat those characters with some love and respect and not just as a hook and a foil to make cheap sales and hype up your new action figures.

They killed of Han in TFA and I think everyone went along with it because it was obvious that Abrams respected the fans and the history (maybe too much) and it was in furtherance of the plot (to make Kylo more evil and unlikeable).

What point did Luke's death serve other than to get him out of the way so the new characters can take main stage? It just felt so gawd damn forced. Yeah, Obi Wan faded away into nothing willingly, but the thought there was always that he knew he could not defeat Vader and he would eventually be killed anyways. Yoda faded away after living for hundreds of years and becoming so old and tired he could barely move.

Luke? I still don't understand what happened to Luke. Did he voluntarily go? Was he going to die because he used too much force (not something we've seen before now, so can of hard to assume that this is why). Or did he just say, you know, these rebels, and my twin sister especially, need somebody like me more than ever right now. But, nah, peace out.

So, I'm just sitting here like, why even have Luke in this film? The only reason is to drum up excitement from people who love the OT. Okay, so you put him in this film to get me to spend my money on this film. Fine, but you damn sure better not **** on me after I pay you to show me your movie.

And what pisses everyone off is that it just feels like it was done in such a contemptuous and mean-spirited manner. With an utter disregard of the core star wars fans.

I mean, who the **** is Rian Johnson? Why the **** does he get to decide to rape people's childhood?

There are some good points to this movie. But the reason people will hate this movie is because of how they treated the fans. That's what it boils down to.

All that being said, this movie will be re-evaluated in the context of the trilogy after the third movie is released. There is a chance that Abrams can do some things that will make people not as mad at the decision they made in this one. But if he doesn't, then this will be a hated movie. And it will be more and more hated as time passes and people move past feeling like they should like it because the movie critics liked it.
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Well since Snoke is dead and we were literally given no info about him, you can make up whatever you want. Maybe he was from an entirely different galaxy and just showed up one day? Maybe he's Boba Fett escaped from the Sarlacc Pit who's sheer anger at being stuck down there for so long gave him the force. Maybe someone was boiling midichlorians and he fell in?
The Debt
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FTACO97 said:

SeattleAgJr said:

Man,

Rian is out and about doing interviews like crazy explaining the story and why things were done that way.

I think if you have to spend half of every interview explaining what you meant and context, you failed as a director.
No, he's having to do this because a vocal minority of rabid Star Wars fans have been taking a **** all over his film and now he's having to come out and justify himself.

It's not a minority and it's not just star wars fans
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
FTACO97 said:


No, he's having to do this because a vocal minority of rabid Star Wars fans have been taking a **** all over his film and now he's having to come out and justify himself.
I think this is a bad take. Even the majority of people who overall liked the movie think there's some pretty glaring things wrong with it.
Dr. Teeth
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
SeattleAgJr said:

Dr. Teeth said:

SpreadSheetAg said:

I jsut want to know this...

If Snoke is 75 years old... and this is 30 years after RotJ... then Snoke is a Force wielder in his prime years (25-45) during the rise and fall of the Empire.

Even if he's in the unknown regions, how is he unaccounted for?
Maybe a Jedi that escaped Order 66, or rather survived a brutal assassination attempt, given his disfigurement.
he was never a jedi, and was not a sith.


And you know this how?

He came from somewhere.
VanZandt92
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SeattleAgJr said:

Man,

Rian is out and about doing interviews like crazy explaining the story and why things were done that way.

I think if you have to spend half of every interview explaining what you meant and context, you failed as a director.
His script was re tarded.
VanZandt92
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FTACO97 said:

SeattleAgJr said:

Man,

Rian is out and about doing interviews like crazy explaining the story and why things were done that way.

I think if you have to spend half of every interview explaining what you meant and context, you failed as a director.
No, he's having to do this because a vocal minority of rabid Star Wars fans have been taking a **** all over his film and now he's having to come out and justify himself.
I'm going to have to disagree here. They set up expectations, as did the reviewers. Many of those Rotten Tomatoes reviews do , in fact, reflect the views of those that were paying attention and who care
FTACO97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
bobinator said:

FTACO97 said:


No, he's having to do this because a vocal minority of rabid Star Wars fans have been taking a **** all over his film and now he's having to come out and justify himself.
I think this is a bad take. Even the majority of people who overall liked the movie think there's some pretty glaring things wrong with it.
"majority of people...pretty glaring things wrong" - of course this gets thrown around, sometimes by both sides, but never any real proof. If I took the time to go through these 40+ pages and made a list of those with very negative opinions, it would probably be the same 10-15 people who keep commenting and keep the negative echo chamber going. While there are just as many people if not more who have posted positive opinions of the film.


As has been posted in the thread by me and others, other review sites have a very positive ranking for the film. A from CinemaScore, 86 from MetaCritic, 7.8/10 IMDB....etc. There's a slew of articles online about how it's not a clear cut "everyone hates it" but that it's split, and not evenly.
TCTTS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I don't think your response is really about what I was saying. What I meant is that even the reviews that were mostly positive usually point out that there are some weaknesses with this film.

Even a lot of people on here are like "I really liked it, could have done without (Canto Bight, Leia Superman, etc), but I liked it."

Like, there are some bad things in there for most people, even if they mostly liked the movie.

VanZandt92
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I don't think there is really a debate any longer that this movie was half assed. Whether you believe the reviews or not is your choice. There is bias on both ends in those reviews, but many of the critical reviews are well thought out if you read them. Additionally, as I pointed out, some of the positive reviews I believe are fake. I went through about 200 reviews and that was my take. I certainly had my own bias, but really I approached the whole thing from the point of thinking I was crazy and too old to get why it was such a great movie. But it wasn't just me.
Brian Earl Spilner
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

I don't think there is really a debate any longer that this movie was half assed.
Well hell, I guess it's been decided. Let's end it here, folks.
SpreadsheetAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Dr. Teeth said:

StrongbadAg said:

They don't get that (for me personally and I think alot of others) - I want a gritty Batman Begins / Dark Knight / Die Hard style of Star Wars... Not a Guardians of the Galaxy / Age of Ultron: Civil Dysfunction / Prequals type of Star Wars...
I'm good either way. Or both.

I would actually like a Jedi/Bond-type spy movie set on Canto Bight. A Master and Commander style naval battle with Star Destroyers? Hell yes. A Indiana Jones style movie with a group of young force users searching for the lost artifacts of ancient Jedi? Sign me up.

Just don't **** with the original mythology or characters. If you're going to put Luke Skywalker in your movie, don't make him a murderous cowardly ***hole, because he sure as hell wasn't that before. Don't make Admiral ****ing Ackbar cannon fodder and introduce a new admiral we have never seen or heard of before to play the heroic ship commander martyr. No Yondu Mary Poppins y'all Leia.

You want to create your own characters and story, fine. Create a new setting for it. You play with the legends, ****ing do it respectfully. Abrams did, and with all it's flaws, TFA was a pretty good Star Wars movie. Watching it the first time in theaters, I felt like I was 10 years old again. With this one, halfway in I just wanted it to be over.

I actually agree with everything here.

I'd love to see these other styles - but it doesn't fit with the old/new cast as introduced and following the same 8-movie story (so far)...

The bold part is particularly well put in regards to my sentiments.


In that regard, when adding your twist to the original story and characters, don't rewrite their abilities, flaws, strengths. Even with the Force (it is a character too), don't screw with the dogma on it's limitations or the time it takes for mastery.
The Collective
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Best summary that I've seen:
Quote:

I'll end it on this: if George Lucas and Dave Filoni took speed and made a Star Wars movie, you would get The Last Jedi.

It's time to unlearn what you have learned.
FTACO97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Brian Earl Spilner said:

Quote:

I don't think there is really a debate any longer that this movie was half assed.
Well hell, I guess it's been decided. Let's end it here, folks.
Yep, the great VanZandt has spoken....read 200 out of 20k+ reviews on RT and determined some of the positives are fake. Ignored articles that there is some # of negatives that were definitely created by a bot....

And 93% of critics are complete morons....
G Martin 87
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The Debt said:

FTACO97 said:

SeattleAgJr said:

Man,

Rian is out and about doing interviews like crazy explaining the story and why things were done that way.

I think if you have to spend half of every interview explaining what you meant and context, you failed as a director.
No, he's having to do this because a vocal minority of rabid Star Wars fans have been taking a **** all over his film and now he's having to come out and justify himself.

It's not a minority and it's not just star wars fans
I'm definitely not a "rabid" Star Wars fan. His script has major structural problems that are not limited to Star Wars minutiae or fan expectations. I think many critics are afraid to say that TLJ is not a good movie, period.
Murder Hornet
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I like this Luke Skywalker as an idea/legend. It's exactly what all of us 40-year olds have built up in our minds since ROTJ ended.

I think we all built up Luke Skywalker to this bad-ass light saber wielding jedi master because we only got a glimpse of it at the end of ROTJ. People have had nothing to go on except for books, the EU, some video games, etc so we created a legend in our own mind of what Luke became.

There have only been three Jedi that have faded away like that Yoda, Obi-Wan, and now Luke. I don't buy for a minute that Luke died, rather he literally became one with the Force. He will be around for the finale of this trilogy and may still have a key role to play.

IMO, this trilogy was always about bridging the gap between the OT folks (40-somethings) and their kids. Hearing my kids be just as excited for this movie during the build up and talking about what we though was going to happen, what character would do what, etc. has been awesome. TLJ while far from perfect was still a good movie and the universe has been expanded now so that our kids can enjoy it also.

Just my $.02

Saul Goodman
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I thought I was beginning to get too pushy about how fantastic this movie is, but I have to say the anti-TLJ evangelism is impressive.

Hint to the haters: while there is a large and material part of the fan base that hates this movie, there is at least as large of a portion that loves it.
SpreadsheetAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
bobinator said:

Well since Snoke is dead and we were literally given no info about him, you can make up whatever you want. Maybe he was from an entirely different galaxy and just showed up one day? Maybe he's Boba Fett escaped from the Sarlacc Pit who's sheer anger at being stuck down there for so long gave him the force. Maybe someone was boiling midichlorians and he fell in?
****, so he just snapped into the Force like a Sanderson Mistborn? SWEET!
Saul Goodman
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Why the hell would they be afraid to criticize TLJ?
Dr. Teeth
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
You know what I would have been okay with? The EXACT SAME MOVIE with the following changes:

1. Luke looks at the lightsaber sadly and drops it to the ground. He explains to Rey about the hubris of the Jedi and how he came to the island to learn about the earliest Jedi wisdom before it gave way to arrogance. He gives her the books and tells her to start over. She gets back in the Falcon, and as we see it flying away into the twin sunset, he fades away.

2. Leia dies in space reaching out toward her son's ship. Kylo hears her say that she's sorry for failing him and that she forgives him.

Rian wants to kill off the past? Cool. Just do it with some GD respect.
Dr. Teeth
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Saul Goodman said:

Why the hell would they be afraid to criticize TLJ?
Because then they don't get invited to the next premiere.
Saul Goodman
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
How does that explain a lot of these same critics not writing glowingly about TFA and RO?
G Martin 87
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Saul Goodman said:

Why the hell would they be afraid to criticize TLJ?
Maybe a better word is "reluctant". I don't think there is actual fear involved.
SpreadsheetAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Dr. Teeth said:

You know what I would have been okay with? The EXACT SAME MOVIE with the following changes:

1. Luke looks at the lightsaber sadly and drops it to the ground. He explains to Rey about the hubris of the Jedi and how he came to the island to learn about the earliest Jedi wisdom before it gave way to arrogance. He gives her the books and tells her to start over. She gets back in the Falcon, and as we see it flying away into the twin sunset, he fades away.

2. Leia dies in space reaching out toward her son's ship. Kylo hears her say goodbye and that she forgives him.

Rian wants to kill off the past? Cool. Just do it with some GD respect.
1. I don't have big hangups with what he did. I think it was something I could see Yoda doing in his quirky wise old way... Toss the lightsaber over his shoulder and say something like "Weapons, a Jedi does not need. Only the Force..."

2. It would have been much better. Carrie is dead. Let Leia die with dignity and affect toward her son.
FTACO97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Saul Goodman said:

I thought I was beginning to get too pushy about how fantastic this movie is, but I have to say the anti-TLJ evangelism is impressive.

Hint to the haters: while there is a large and material part of the fan base that hates this movie, there is at least as large of a portion that loves it.
So much this...
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Can we just admit that even if you hated it, there were some good parts, and even if you liked it, there were some dodgy parts and go back to debating how many coins a drunk person could stuff into BB8?
Saul Goodman
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Semantics. Why would they be reluctant to criticize this movie?
vwbug
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Aaaaaaand... more damage control, this is getting comical:




And lost all respect for Mark Ellis in this:

G Martin 87
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Saul Goodman said:

Semantics. Why would they be reluctant to criticize this movie?
Because my impression is that they agree with the egalitarian and progressive themes in TLJ, and even admire Rian for "subverting expectations" by playing everything against type.
The Collective
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Agree with you there. Mark Ellis lives off of fan boy expectations and participates in the buildup, and then turns around and calls people like that ridiculous. Makes very little sense.
Saul Goodman
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Fair enough. Although I didn't find any of the themes overly progressive. I think you're right in that a lot of critics appreciated the bold new direction of this film in relation to the rest of the franchise. I also think Rian is a little more "artsy", for lack of a better word, than your typical blockbuster director, and critics eat that up.
digital_ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Went to the second viewing with my wife. It did not get any better for me. I'm a pretty casual Star Wars fan (I only went to see it opening night because a friend purchased the ticket for me) so I don't really get caught up in how the lore is affected. I had literally zero expectations going in the first time. It was just a bland movie without considering the Star Wars "element".

I will say the visuals were incredible. Special effects are pretty common place but what they did in this movie was top notch. Stunning visuals - after the hyperspace suicide, the falling embers during the Snoke chamber scene, the "Street Fighter" angle between Luke/Kylo.

But every time TLJ built towards a big moment that might make me feel something they didn't pay it off:
  • Holy **** is Leia about to die? Oh... I think the cringe of this one has been discussed enough.
  • Finn is about to sacrifice himself and save the day? Physics defying save, cheesy line, kiss, faint. Barf.
  • Luke vs Kylo after Luke just force shielded himself from an onslaught? Just a projection. I didn't really mind this from a "Force" perspective it just... when he's not really there there's really nothing at stake. All the tension gone.
  • Oh **** they tracked us through hyperspace? Commence snail race with double bonus of convenient amount of time X to save the day element. I mean there's like a super death star killer destroyer right behind them (and accompanying fleet), they don't have provisions for taking out a ship just barely outpacing it? It takes me out of the movie when the enemy force is blatantly incompetent.
  • People dying, they have no escape - newly introduced tertiary character does the hyperspace ram. I can't begin to express how stupid this was. First, should have been Akbar as others have said, at least there would be an emotional connection. Second - how badly does this trivialize space battles in this universe? One cruiser can take out an entire fleet with kamikaze? Awful, despite the cool visual.
  • Killing Snoke was pretty anticlimactic for the level of power he possesses but I'll give it a pass due to Kylo character development.
  • Rey goes down into the dark side hole - nothing happens. In retrospect I thought this was a good opportunity for a Luke/Vader Degobah type moment. Obviously not exactly like that, but along those lines. What was Rey's arc in this movie? She started out being a raw Force prodigy and ended the movie in the same state.
  • Finn/Rose about to be executed - the droid flawlessly pilots the walker and saves them. This was really cringy. What is the point of having pilots at all why not just use these droids?

Easily the most salient take away after viewing two. It's actually impressive how often they built up some really good tension and then just dissolved it all away with stupid/impractical plot elements.
TCTTS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I don't know if this is a big part of it, but Johnson is friends with quite a few critics, journalists, and bloggers. Besides having a ton of "street cred," for lack of a better term, with that crowd for the movies he's directed, he runs with that whole Birth.Movies.Death. crew, has attended multiple Butt-Numb-A-Thons in Austin (Ain't Cool News' Harry Knowles annual 24-hour film fest birthday bash), same goes for Fantastic Fest, and regularly engages with critics/journalists/bloggers on Twitter. He's basically a huge film nerd/fan who's deeply embedded in that world who got to direct a Star Wars movie. Again, I don't know how large or how much sway that whole scene has in general as it pertains to actually influencing a Rotten Tomato score, but more than any other director I know, Johnson is definitely the one plugged into that crowd far more than any other. And look, most of his critic friends seem to genuinely love the movie, I'm just saying that if they thought it was crap, they likely wouldn't have been too critical, if at all. I think with a good chunk of these guys there's definitely a holy-crap-my-friend-is-directing-Star-Wars-movie element.
vwbug
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Agreed - made zero sense. I think Mark wants to make sure he gets an invite to the Solo premiere in May

 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.