Ag Since 83 said:

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I don't think they can ever make a movie that will make everyone happy

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Clearly you've never seen Wild Things.

FTACO97 said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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Here's the ultimate problem with the movie... The viewers have to keep coming up with their own plausible reasoning for a lot of events in the movie happening the way they did. And I mean A LOT of events. A movie can have outrageous events in it and still be a good movie if the events make sense in the context of universe that the movie is set up.

But in this movie the outrageous events are so nonsensical and out of context for the "Star Wars universe" that the only way people can argue the writing and plot was good is to make up their own reasons (i.e. excuses) for the events.

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This points to something in my mind that's wrong with some in society today...

Some people need every minute detail spelled out for them in a film or a book. They no longer use their imagination. If the director or writer doesn't explain everything, it's a bad movie or story. Go back to the OT, there were plenty of "outrageous events" that had never been seen before but the films didn't explain all the details. We as the viewers used our imagination to come up with theories, etc. Of course, then in the prequels Lucas chose to explain everything in excruciating detail (trade disputes, midichlorians, jedi rules an regulations, etc) so I guess that's now expected from a Star Wars film, particularly those who grew up with the prequels.

In my mind, everything that happened in TLJ fit with "...the events make sense in the context of universe that the movie is set up.".

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I shouldn't have to use my imagination to explain why a tiny little ship flying slowly in space needs to run out of fuel before an entire fleet of giant ass battle cruisers can destroy it. I mean a single X Wing shooting torpedoes took out the entire Death Star. It's not "cerebral" to find a way to rationalize that kind of stupidity and we are talking about the main plot of the movie.

My thoughts on some of the commonly cited inconsistencies
1. Slow bombers/ falling bombs. I file this under artistic license. There are half a dozen physical explanations for why things could be that way, so I don't need it spelled out.

2. Space Mary Poppins. First time we've seen Leia do anything with the Force. First time we've seen this power. Kind of silly looking. Requires explanation that never happened.

3. Luke changes hair color. Seems a little weird and pointless, but so minor that I don't care.

4. Luke does a force projection. Some buildup with the Kylo-rey conversations, and Luke is a known powerful Jedi master. No issue with the facts, but believe Johnson could have told the story in a much more satisfying way.

5. Luke randomly dies. I heard someone say that there was a foreshadowing comment, but I don't remember it. Does not seem consistent with the precedents in star wars.

6. Rey is as powerful as a Sith Lord who has trained his entire life. Very inconsistent with precedent, as training is a crucial part of the heroes journey and a well established requirement for mastery in the SW universe. i think this will be fixed in 9.

7. Kylo able to dupe Snoke. Consistent with how dark lords tend to transfer power (opportunism and deception aided by hubris and distraction). Ample explanation within the scene. I actually consider this one of the strongest scenes in the movie when it comes to understanding Star Wars.

8. Random tech Rose is an expert at flying the salt skimmers. Weird, but minor and again there are enough ways she could have picked that up that I don't care.

9. Admiral Dern wears slinky dress. Inconsistent but minor enough that I don't care.

10. Hyperspace kamikaze. Might be forgivable just because it's cool as ****, but also wrecks space battle mechanics in the SW universe.

11. Hyperspace tracking. Much easier ways to accomplish this plot point, inconsistent with canon, and wrecks the logistics of space warfare. Very bad decision.


Several don't matter or aren't inconsistent in the first place, but there are still several big ones that look like carelessness with the mechanics of the universe and crafting the presentation.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Here's the thing. Good movies should challenge the audience.

After Empire, don't you think people were pissed that we didn't know who Yoda was talking about? ("There is another.")

Were people HAPPY that Luke ended up being the son of the ultimate bad guy in the galaxy?

Did people EXPECT the greatest Jedi Master in the history of the Jedi to be a green frog creature?

Was there anyone satisfied that Han Solo was frozen in carbonite and seemingly out of commission for the next movie? (Decision to bring him back came later.)

I'm sure all of those seemed completely out of left field in 1980.

I think a lot of how this trilogy will be perceived down the road, is hinging on Ep IX.

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The plot twists aren't my issue. I love Kylo Ren wanting to kill the past. I was actually rooting for Rey to flirt with the dark side more...hell, make her become the ultimate bad guy and Kylo Ren the savior. Or make Kylo be the ultimate bad guy in the Star Wars universe, even worse than Vader, a Skywalker who doesn't redeem himself and turn to the good side at the end.

I have no problem with a movie making a left turn when everyone thinks it's going to turn right. I have no problem with killing off main characters (I love Game of Thrones). I have no problem with turning things on their head. And I have no problem with leaving things in limbo until the next movie.

My problem wasn't the "end goals" of the movie if you want to call them that, it was the poor writing that got us there.

I guess our differences are that some of you view the gaps in logic, out-of-left-field character actions, and events that just plain don't make sense and contradict past events as good writing that makes you think because it leaves it to your imagination to fill in the details, while others of us view it as poor, lazy writing that uses the crutch/excuse of "just use your imagination" or "it's a mystical space movie" to propel the plot because the writers aren't skillfull enough to get there in an actually clever way.

It has nothing to do with a "generational thing" or needing to have everything spelled out.

FL_Ag1998 said:

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I guess our differences are that some of you view the gaps in logic, out-of-left-field character actions, and events that just plain don't make sense and contradict past events as good writing that makes you think because it leaves it to your imagination to fill in the details, while others of us view it as poor, lazy writing that uses the crutch/excuse of "just use your imagination" or "it's a mystical space movie" to propel the plot because the writers aren't skillfull enough to get there in an actually clever way.

It has nothing to do with a "generational thing" or needing to have everything spelled out.

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I need more than 1 star for this.

FL_Ag1998 said:

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I guess our differences are that some of you view the gaps in logic, out-of-left-field character actions, and events that just plain don't make sense and contradict past events as good writing that makes you think because it leaves it to your imagination to fill in the details, while others of us view it as poor, lazy writing that uses the crutch/excuse of "just use your imagination" or "it's a mystical space movie" to propel the plot because the writers aren't skillfull enough to get there in an actually clever way.

It has nothing to do with a "generational thing" or needing to have everything spelled out.

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Bottom line is if you have to suspend everything you know about storytelling and say it's great because it's Star Wars, then the movie failed.

digital_ag said:

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FTACO97 said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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Here's the ultimate problem with the movie... The viewers have to keep coming up with their own plausible reasoning for a lot of events in the movie happening the way they did. And I mean A LOT of events. A movie can have outrageous events in it and still be a good movie if the events make sense in the context of universe that the movie is set up.

But in this movie the outrageous events are so nonsensical and out of context for the "Star Wars universe" that the only way people can argue the writing and plot was good is to make up their own reasons (i.e. excuses) for the events.

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This points to something in my mind that's wrong with some in society today...

Some people need every minute detail spelled out for them in a film or a book. They no longer use their imagination. If the director or writer doesn't explain everything, it's a bad movie or story. Go back to the OT, there were plenty of "outrageous events" that had never been seen before but the films didn't explain all the details. We as the viewers used our imagination to come up with theories, etc. Of course, then in the prequels Lucas chose to explain everything in excruciating detail (trade disputes, midichlorians, jedi rules an regulations, etc) so I guess that's now expected from a Star Wars film, particularly those who grew up with the prequels.

In my mind, everything that happened in TLJ fit with "...the events make sense in the context of universe that the movie is set up.".

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I shouldn't have to use my imagination to explain why a tiny little ship flying slowly in space needs to run out of fuel before an entire fleet of giant ass battle cruisers can destroy it. I mean a single X Wing shooting torpedoes took out the entire Death Star. It's not "cerebral" to find a way to rationalize that kind of stupidity and we are talking about the main plot of the movie.

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really????....wow....are you that limited in your thinking. my kids even got that....hell my wife got that.

a. flying slowly? who the hell said they were flying slowly....perspective...in the giant empty vacuum of space with stars in the background lightyears away and occasional planets they could have been flying at 50,000 miles per hour and it would look like that.

b. an X wing was able to destroy a death star because 1. it got close, like basically inside it and 2. hit an intentional design flaw that lit the whole thing up. say what you will about the convenience of that...but thats why. you can't differentiate that from a ship running at great distance from the big ships and able to maintain that distance as long as it has fuel and it also has its shields up so the blasts hitting it from distance are ineffective????

it's really not that hard.

I'll add to your thoughts on a few of these......

Ulrich said:

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My thoughts on some of the commonly cited inconsistencies
1. Slow bombers/ falling bombs. I file this under artistic license. There are half a dozen physical explanations for why things could be that way, so I don't need it spelled out.

ME - whoever said they were "falling" they could be projected that direction. It was just a cool look like bombers from WWII kind of thing. Artistic license yes, but also physically possible.

2. Space Mary Poppins. First time we've seen Leia do anything with the Force. First time we've seen this power. Kind of silly looking. Requires explanation that never happened.

ME - yeah nothing to add here it was the weakest part.

3. Luke changes hair color. Seems a little weird and pointless, but so minor that I don't care.

ME - I chalked this up to intentional...a clue that it was a projection...and if I projected my image it would be a younger skinnier handsomer version of myself. right.

4. Luke does a force projection. Some buildup with the Kylo-rey conversations, and Luke is a known powerful Jedi master. No issue with the facts, but believe Johnson could have told the story in a much more satisfying way.

OK

5. Luke randomly dies. I heard someone say that there was a foreshadowing comment, but I don't remember it. Does not seem consistent with the precedents in star wars.

ME - the line was Kylo in discussion with Rey about their projection/connection saying basically "wait you can't be doing this, the effort would kill you".

6. Rey is as powerful as a Sith Lord who has trained his entire life. Very inconsistent with precedent, as training is a crucial part of the heroes journey and a well established requirement for mastery in the SW universe. i think this will be fixed in 9.

ME - Nothing I have ever seen has convinced me she is as powerful as a trained sith lord. Including TFA battle. In TFA in an earlier encounter Kylo easily immobilized her and held a saber to her throat. He could have killed her easily then. Later he has taken a Chewy blaster to the hip and is maybe weakened. But he also discards of Finn easily and seems to want to go mano a womano with Rey. She may surprise him a bit with her power, but she doesn't defeats him - ex machina saves the day and separates them by a chasm.

Now in TLJ she basically just shows up and he says cool, his guards handcuff her and takes her to the throne room for Snoke. Now there Snoke also easily tosses her and her saber tricks around. Only Kylo is able to trick Snoke and then she and Kylo team up and defeat the red guard. Now they are not sith that I am aware of...and really only working together do they succeed and she pulls a neat trick or two. But I don't see skill of a Sith level in play.


7. Kylo able to dupe Snoke. Consistent with how dark lords tend to transfer power (opportunism and deception aided by hubris and distraction). Ample explanation within the scene. I actually consider this one of the strongest scenes in the movie when it comes to understanding Star Wars.

YEP

8. Random tech Rose is an expert at flying the salt skimmers. Weird, but minor and again there are enough ways she could have picked that up that I don't care.

ME - meh...Luke also could fly anything, several people jump in unknown vehicles through the 8 movies and quickly master them.

9. Admiral Dern wears slinky dress. Inconsistent but minor enough that I don't care.

ME- maybe she was at a swanky gala premiere when fighting broke out. who knows....didn't care.

10. Hyperspace kamikaze. Might be forgivable just because it's cool as ****, but also wrecks space battle mechanics in the SW universe.

ME - I don't think it destroys anything of the mechanics. First of all I don't think a tiny X-wing like ship would do much damage so thats why they don't do it. And usually the big resistance ships are full of people so you don't do it then because you desperately need people. This was convenient and worked because the ship was basically empty and big enough to do great damage. It was a desperation move which fits with the state of the resistance at this point.

11. Hyperspace tracking. Much easier ways to accomplish this plot point, inconsistent with canon, and wrecks the logistics of space warfare. Very bad decision.

ME certainly just a matter of convenient plot device and deserved better explantion.


Several don't matter or aren't inconsistent in the first place, but there are still several big ones that look like carelessness with the mechanics of the universe and crafting the presentation.

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Only 2 I really care about - Leia force use while unconscious and in space and hyperspace tracking plot device.

And even those are minor to me compared to the waste of time on Finn/Rose sidestory.

This thread has become an absolute caricature of itself.

People pointing out flaws that exist in basically every single Star Wars movie ever made because they didn't like the main story direction, then blaming those instead of just saying they didn't like the main story decisions.

THEN, the people who liked the movie feel they have to defend the obvious flaws in the movie by coming up with crazy explanations. It's a never-ending circle.

And then there's the crowd blaming everything on SJW culture, who aren't even worth debating with.

Feels like it will go on forever at this point!!

Honestly, while the writing and plotline would still have their problems, in my opinion if you eliminate the Finn/Rose abomination then the movie instantly becomes tenfold better.

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5. Luke randomly dies. I heard someone say that there was a foreshadowing comment, but I don't remember it. Does not seem consistent with the precedents in star wars.

7. Kylo able to dupe Snoke. Consistent with how dark lords tend to transfer power (opportunism and deception aided by hubris and distraction). Ample explanation within the scene. I actually consider this one of the strongest scenes in the movie when it comes to understanding Star Wars.

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I watched the movie again this afternoon. During Kylo and Rey's first Force connection, Kylo says something to the effect of "You're not doing this, the strain would kill you. No, this is something else." I didn't catch that line the first time I watched, and it made the ending a little more satisfying to me - a clear acknowledgment in the movie that Luke was doing something incredibly difficult that can explain his death.

Interestingly, I think that same comment by Kylo also ties to his ability to dupe Snoke. If he immediately suspected someone or something else was behind his connection with Rey, it makes sense that he would have tried to shield some of his thoughts from whoever/whatever it was.

I tend to agree with this....no one has ever complained that people aren't floating in the ships...

The fact that WestAustinAg and Seattle hate this movie, tells me I'm probably on to something in really liking it.

I'm kidding of course...sorta...

Those are two entirely different uses of the force. There's no manual for rules of the force. I would kind of see your point if Snoke did a projection across the galaxy and didn't die, but he didn't. He did something completely different than a projection.

Seems like a weird thing to get hung up on.

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Again, the strain of connecting two people several times wasn't too much for Snoke, but once was enough to kill Luke?

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Snoke was connecting with two minds over a distance. Luke was connecting with hundreds of minds over a distance.

BernArnold said:

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digital_ag said:

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FTACO97 said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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Here's the ultimate problem with the movie... The viewers have to keep coming up with their own plausible reasoning for a lot of events in the movie happening the way they did. And I mean A LOT of events. A movie can have outrageous events in it and still be a good movie if the events make sense in the context of universe that the movie is set up.

But in this movie the outrageous events are so nonsensical and out of context for the "Star Wars universe" that the only way people can argue the writing and plot was good is to make up their own reasons (i.e. excuses) for the events.

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This points to something in my mind that's wrong with some in society today...

Some people need every minute detail spelled out for them in a film or a book. They no longer use their imagination. If the director or writer doesn't explain everything, it's a bad movie or story. Go back to the OT, there were plenty of "outrageous events" that had never been seen before but the films didn't explain all the details. We as the viewers used our imagination to come up with theories, etc. Of course, then in the prequels Lucas chose to explain everything in excruciating detail (trade disputes, midichlorians, jedi rules an regulations, etc) so I guess that's now expected from a Star Wars film, particularly those who grew up with the prequels.

In my mind, everything that happened in TLJ fit with "...the events make sense in the context of universe that the movie is set up.".

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I shouldn't have to use my imagination to explain why a tiny little ship flying slowly in space needs to run out of fuel before an entire fleet of giant ass battle cruisers can destroy it. I mean a single X Wing shooting torpedoes took out the entire Death Star. It's not "cerebral" to find a way to rationalize that kind of stupidity and we are talking about the main plot of the movie.

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really????....wow....are you that limited in your thinking. my kids even got that....hell my wife got that.

a. flying slowly? who the hell said they were flying slowly....perspective...in the giant empty vacuum of space with stars in the background lightyears away and occasional planets they could have been flying at 50,000 miles per hour and it would look like that.

b. an X wing was able to destroy a death star because 1. it got close, like basically inside it and 2. hit an intentional design flaw that lit the whole thing up. say what you will about the convenience of that...but thats why. you can't differentiate that from a ship running at great distance from the big ships and able to maintain that distance as long as it has fuel and it also has its shields up so the blasts hitting it from distance are ineffective????

it's really not that hard.

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a. Rationalizing stupidity. If it's all relative why can't a giant flying battle station find enough propulsion? Or at least send out some other minor ships that exist solely for that purpose? Leads to...
b. I seem to recall a tie fighter infiltrating the cruiser and blowing up the entire hangar bay in the first 10 minutes of the movie. Funny how we don't see another tie fighter until salt planet scene.

If you want to suspend common sense so that you can enjoy the movie that's fine. I wish I could but so many plot components were so outrageously stupid it takes me out of the movie.

This may already be mentioned in one of the other 70 pages, but the Hyperspace Tracking was mentioned in Rogue One with Jyn Erso. I believe they intentionally reshot this scene from Rogue One after Last Jedi had been written or started shooting.

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so many plot components were so outrageously stupid it takes me out of the movie.

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That's a good way of describing how I felt at several points sitting in the theater. Even some small things, like saying "dollar" instead of "credit" or having galactic slot machines and BB8 shooting out a stream of coins.

It reminded me of something Jonah Goldberg wrote after Attack of the Clones (which I liked a lot more than he did), using a reference to an obscure time travel movie in which a modern penny broke the magic of time travel. I kept thinking that Last Jedi had a lot of pennies, which ruin the magic of being transported to this fantastic galaxy far far away. (Link if anyone cares: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/205207/send-clones-jonah-goldberg).

just watched the movie today, and have only read the first dozen or so pages so sorry if this has been brought up.....


I could not take Snoke seriously, b/c all I saw was Goldmember: