Political fallout and arguments regarding the US-Israeli action against Iran 022824

169,328 Views | 2081 Replies | Last: 2 min ago by Who?mikejones!
AgGrad99
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samurai_science said:



I think that's always been his strategy. Like he said from the onset...the Iranian people need to rise up and take their country back, because they might not ever get this chance again.
AgGrad99
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Dungeon Crawler Carl said:


This is what the death of the US Petro Dollar looks like in real time........

"Full faith and confidence back by the US Military"



A. This is a comment by one random/anonymous resident of Dubai. Not an official stance of the government.

B. Israel paid for, and developed the majority of their system.

C. Israel was targeted by tens of thousands of missiles launched at them the past few years. Over 30k, in the year after they were attacked on October 7th. Countless munitions the past 10-20 years. It's an ongoing/continuous issue for them. Dubai was targeted by 15 since this started, and ZERO previously. Kind of makes sense why Israel has the Iron dome and Dubai doesn't. But if they are worried about that, maybe they should stop buying yachts and Lambos, and put some money into defense? I'm sure we'd be glad to assist.

D. This does not kill the US Petro Dollar. Iran is requesting RMB, because they are desperate for the CCPs help/funds. China is paying 50% more than we are. They're also one of the only direct customers they have right now (along with India). They aren't going to do anything to benefit us, since they're in a conflict with us. China is their partner, we're not. It's just common sense they'll cater to China at the moment.
Dungeon Crawler Carl
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Today is a pivotal day for the global economy.




Quote:

Spokesman for Iran's Armed Forces (Khatam al-Anbiya) Central Headquarters:

"Fuel, energy, and gas infrastructure at the source of aggression will be burned and reduced to ashes at the earliest opportunity."

This is a direct warning following a joint Israeli US attack on Iran's South Pars gasfield (the largest gas field in the world).

Five facilities in Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar "will be targeted in the coming hours". Including Saudi Arabia's SAMREF refinery and Jubail petrochemical complex, the UAE's Al Hosn gasfield, and Qatar's Ras Laffan refinery and Mesaieed petrochemical complex and holding company.



If the Iranians pull this off, it's going to get extremely messy around the globe......




snowminer
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nortex97 said:

The IRGC/mullahs American Evangelicals are (insane) Twelver/Shia moslems Protestant Christians who believe the 12th Imam, the 'absent' Muhammad al-Mahdi, Jesus Christ who went into hiding in 874 was crucified in 30 (or whatever year) and will re-emerge to establish justice return to judge the living and the dead etc.

Creating a cataclysmic series of events to bring him Him forth is what animates them. They just aren't people to be politically negotiated with, period, let alone given nuclear weapons to play around with.

Basing our policy upon the religious fantasies of the Iranian regime is a strategic trap that ensures yet another endless quagmire in the middle east. We must recognize that their own beliefs are a mirror image of the beliefs held by some currently operating the levers of power within our own government.

If we make our goal in this war the elimination of the Islamic Republic, then we are chasing a theological fantasy instead of a strategic reality. Iran is larger than Iraq and Afghanistan combined with similarly rugged topography. Furthermore, it has a population at least twice that of either Iraq or Afghanistan that is highly educated, urbanized, and industrious. To achieve elimination would necessitate either another catastrophic multi-decade, ground invasion or such extreme action, like nuclear deployment, that would render us global pariahs and risk igniting World War III.

We can all agree that Iranian nuclear weapons is a non-starter, and the threat requires deliberate, strategic containment. However, we cannot continue to repeat the mistakes of the past. We must stop believing that we can bomb a nation as vast as Iran into submission. On the contrary, by launching a surprise attack in the midst of negotiations, we have now hardened the regime. We have discredited any remaining Iranian moderates and encouraged hard-liners who believe that peace is an impossibility.
The Collective
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We are truly entering full on FAFO stage. About to figure out who will be finding out.
Science Denier
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Sid Farkas said:



I don't think sending a few Herring gill netters to patrol the straight will make all that much difference.

Just give us Greenland and we are good.
richardag
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cecil77 said:

Quote:

Explain Korean War, Vietnam War, iIraq War, Syrian War, Afghanistan War, Indian Wars, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Libya (bombing), Iran-Contra wars, Barbary Wars, Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo Wars, ISIS War.


    • Congress has declared five wars:* War of 1812* Mexican War 1846* Spanish American Wars 1898* World War I 1917* World War II 1941
  • The vast majority of wars fought by this country have not been declared by Congress. It was deemed suppressing a rebellion, but even the Civil War was not declared.


Exactly, they were wars. They were undeclared.
We really need to rewrite our laws concerning libel and slander.
richardag
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FobTies said:

richardag said:


I haven't moved any goalposts.

Explain Korean War, Vietnam War, iIraq War, Syrian War, Afghanistan War, Indian Wars, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Libya (bombing), Iran-Contra wars, Barbary Wars, Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo Wars, ISIS War.

Your original arguement was that Massie was ignorant of our founders intent about the justification for war.

Then you moved the argument to reference modern wars generations after the death of our founders. Those wars may set precedence, but they are totally irrelevant to any "arguments made by our founders".

Thats called moving the goal posts. Carry on.

I didn't move anything, the President under the Constitution is the commander in chief with direct control over the military, it's in the Constitution. It gives the President the power to "make war", whether or not Congress "declares war". Since the President is commander in chief he can tell Congress to pound sand if Congress "declares war". That is what the founding fathers were arguing and settled on the "declaration of war" not "make war". It is clear as day as to the intent of the Founding Fathers.
So yes, it most definitely is a Constitutional issue.
if Congress follows the Constitution they have only 2 options, the power of the purse strings and impeachment.
Impeachment would be more difficult as they must prove criminal or treasonous acts.
We really need to rewrite our laws concerning libel and slander.
74OA
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An alternative perspective.

"In August 1988, with his country bled white by eight years of war against Saddam Hussein's Iraq, a million dead, the economy in ruins, the revolutionary generation exhausted, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini accepted a U.N. ceasefire. He called it "more deadly than taking poison." He was drinking from the bitter chalice of defeat.

And then what happened? The Islamic Republic survived. It did not moderate, liberalize, or reckon with its failures. It nursed its wounds, rebuilt its Revolutionary Guard, and spent the next three and a half decades constructing the very proxy network and missile arsenal that the United States and Israel are now trying to destroy. Khomeini's humiliation became the seedbed of everything that followed.

Fourteen days into the American-Israeli air campaign against Iran, it is worth recalling that history because we may be about to repeat it."

CHALICE
richardag
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JFABNRGR said:





Book tour soon to be forthcoming?
We really need to rewrite our laws concerning libel and slander.
nortex97
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snowminer said:

nortex97 said:

The IRGC/mullahs American Evangelicals are (insane) Twelver/Shia moslems Protestant Christians who believe the 12th Imam, the 'absent' Muhammad al-Mahdi, Jesus Christ who went into hiding in 874 was crucified in 30 (or whatever year) and will re-emerge to establish justice return to judge the living and the dead etc.

Creating a cataclysmic series of events to bring him Him forth is what animates them. They just aren't people to be politically negotiated with, period, let alone given nuclear weapons to play around with.

Basing our policy upon the religious fantasies of the Iranian regime is a strategic trap that ensures yet another endless quagmire in the middle east. We must recognize that their own beliefs are a mirror image of the beliefs held by some currently operating the levers of power within our own government.

Your first paragraph contains two fatally wrong assertions. Acknowledging the reality of the enemy we face is a primary objective/requirement. The second one is just absurd/inane/ignorant as a comparison (I'm trying to be nice/stay within TOS).

The rest of your diatribe isn't worth addressing in any way. Have a nice day.
Slicer97
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snowminer said:

nortex97 said:

The IRGC/mullahs American Evangelicals are (insane) Twelver/Shia moslems Protestant Christians who believe the 12th Imam, the 'absent' Muhammad al-Mahdi, Jesus Christ who went into hiding in 874 was crucified in 30 (or whatever year) and will re-emerge to establish justice return to judge the living and the dead etc.

Creating a cataclysmic series of events to bring him Him forth is what animates them. They just aren't people to be politically negotiated with, period, let alone given nuclear weapons to play around with.

Basing our policy upon the religious fantasies of the Iranian regime is a strategic trap that ensures yet another endless quagmire in the middle east. We must recognize that their own beliefs are a mirror image of the beliefs held by some currently operating the levers of power within our own government.

If we make our goal in this war the elimination of the Islamic Republic, then we are chasing a theological fantasy instead of a strategic reality. Iran is larger than Iraq and Afghanistan combined with similarly rugged topography. Furthermore, it has a population at least twice that of either Iraq or Afghanistan that is highly educated, urbanized, and industrious. To achieve elimination would necessitate either another catastrophic multi-decade, ground invasion or such extreme action, like nuclear deployment, that would render us global pariahs and risk igniting World War III.

We can all agree that Iranian nuclear weapons is a non-starter, and the threat requires deliberate, strategic containment. However, we cannot continue to repeat the mistakes of the past. We must stop believing that we can bomb a nation as vast as Iran into submission. On the contrary, by launching a surprise attack in the midst of negotiations, we have now hardened the regime. We have discredited any remaining Iranian moderates and encouraged hard-liners who believe that peace is an impossibility.


Uh, you mind explaining how us Christians are plotting to destroy the world in an attempt to get Jesus to come back? Because I'm not really following your logic on this one.
Rapier108
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richardag said:

JFABNRGR said:





Book tour soon to be forthcoming?

MSDNC and CNN tour first.
The Ex Officio Director
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samurai_science said:



Can the U.S. or Israel please take out Gen. Ali Shahbazi, Rear Adm. Alireza Tangsiri, and Esmail Khatib so I can have a bingo. I would greatly appreciate it.
Can't decide if I want to be cute & cuddly, or go blow some sh*t up.
Decisions decisions.
Rapier108
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Slicer97 said:

snowminer said:

nortex97 said:

The IRGC/mullahs American Evangelicals are (insane) Twelver/Shia moslems Protestant Christians who believe the 12th Imam, the 'absent' Muhammad al-Mahdi, Jesus Christ who went into hiding in 874 was crucified in 30 (or whatever year) and will re-emerge to establish justice return to judge the living and the dead etc.

Creating a cataclysmic series of events to bring him Him forth is what animates them. They just aren't people to be politically negotiated with, period, let alone given nuclear weapons to play around with.

Basing our policy upon the religious fantasies of the Iranian regime is a strategic trap that ensures yet another endless quagmire in the middle east. We must recognize that their own beliefs are a mirror image of the beliefs held by some currently operating the levers of power within our own government.

If we make our goal in this war the elimination of the Islamic Republic, then we are chasing a theological fantasy instead of a strategic reality. Iran is larger than Iraq and Afghanistan combined with similarly rugged topography. Furthermore, it has a population at least twice that of either Iraq or Afghanistan that is highly educated, urbanized, and industrious. To achieve elimination would necessitate either another catastrophic multi-decade, ground invasion or such extreme action, like nuclear deployment, that would render us global pariahs and risk igniting World War III.

We can all agree that Iranian nuclear weapons is a non-starter, and the threat requires deliberate, strategic containment. However, we cannot continue to repeat the mistakes of the past. We must stop believing that we can bomb a nation as vast as Iran into submission. On the contrary, by launching a surprise attack in the midst of negotiations, we have now hardened the regime. We have discredited any remaining Iranian moderates and encouraged hard-liners who believe that peace is an impossibility.


Uh, you mind explaining how us Christians are plotting to destroy the world in an attempt to get Jesus to come back? Because I'm not really following your logic on this one.

It's yet another 10 year account with only 89 posts, all but 2 of which have been since 2024.

And from his posting history, he is very anti-Christian, anti-police, and pro-illegals.
Old McDonald
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snowminer said:

nortex97 said:

The IRGC/mullahs American Evangelicals are (insane) Twelver/Shia moslems Protestant Christians who believe the 12th Imam, the 'absent' Muhammad al-Mahdi, Jesus Christ who went into hiding in 874 was crucified in 30 (or whatever year) and will re-emerge to establish justice return to judge the living and the dead etc.

Creating a cataclysmic series of events to bring him Him forth is what animates them. They just aren't people to be politically negotiated with, period, let alone given nuclear weapons to play around with.

Basing our policy upon the religious fantasies of the Iranian regime is a strategic trap that ensures yet another endless quagmire in the middle east. We must recognize that their own beliefs are a mirror image of the beliefs held by some currently operating the levers of power within our own government.

If we make our goal in this war the elimination of the Islamic Republic, then we are chasing a theological fantasy instead of a strategic reality. Iran is larger than Iraq and Afghanistan combined with similarly rugged topography. Furthermore, it has a population at least twice that of either Iraq or Afghanistan that is highly educated, urbanized, and industrious. To achieve elimination would necessitate either another catastrophic multi-decade, ground invasion or such extreme action, like nuclear deployment, that would render us global pariahs and risk igniting World War III.

We can all agree that Iranian nuclear weapons is a non-starter, and the threat requires deliberate, strategic containment. However, we cannot continue to repeat the mistakes of the past. We must stop believing that we can bomb a nation as vast as Iran into submission. On the contrary, by launching a surprise attack in the midst of negotiations, we have now hardened the regime. We have discredited any remaining Iranian moderates and encouraged hard-liners who believe that peace is an impossibility.
very well stated. i'd go a step further than what you said in bold: our secretary of defense is a modern-day christian crusader who has explicitly called for an american crusade against islam in the middle east. he even wrote a book about it and got it tattooed on his body.
nortex97
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74OA said:

An alternative perspective.

"In August 1988, with his country bled white by eight years of war against Saddam Hussein's Iraq, a million dead, the economy in ruins, the revolutionary generation exhausted, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini accepted a U.N. ceasefire. He called it "more deadly than taking poison." He was drinking from the bitter chalice of defeat.

And then what happened? The Islamic Republic survived. It did not moderate, liberalize, or reckon with its failures. It nursed its wounds, rebuilt its Revolutionary Guard, and spent the next three and a half decades constructing the very proxy network and missile arsenal that the United States and Israel are now trying to destroy. Khomeini's humiliation became the seedbed of everything that followed.

Fourteen days into the American-Israeli air campaign against Iran, it is worth recalling that history because we may be about to repeat it."

CHALICE

Another perspective, even, would be that after Carter had the Ayatollah flown in on Air France from Paris and installed (after getting the Shah to leave), but was then 'betrayed' we had to establish what would become Centcom to control his mullah 'ghandi-like' reformers in Iran, but that failed ultimately and after millions were killed, including via the use of mustard gas and human waves of children through minefields, both sides were exhausted in the war Carter caused.

The islamic republic would thrive under weak Democrat presidents such as Obama (Valerie Jarrett/John F Kerry) and Biden in years to come in particular, often aided by pallets of cash and UNRWA funding for their proxies, eventually growing so arrogant as to think no American president would take their 'negotiating' stall tactics seriously.

I do agree though, Democrat treachery toward the people of Iran and the middle east over the past 50 years is worth recalling at this time.
The Collective
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I don't know about you guys, but I really want a 12th Imam t-shirt. Would that earn me a Fatwa?
Slicer97
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So he's not going to be able to explain it then?
Dungeon Crawler Carl
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This is what the death of the Petro dollar looks like in real time......

Dungeon Crawler Carl
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This just got messy.


OldArmy71
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If we shut down Kharg Island, doesn't China get its oil from Iran?

Are we going to get into a war with China as China tries to keep the oil flowing?
Who?mikejones!
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I dont think china wants that. More likely to have china pressure the mullahs to give up
The Ex Officio Director
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OldArmy71 said:

If we shut down Kharg Island, doesn't China get its oil from Iran?

Are we going to get into a war with China as China tries to keep the oil flowing?

China/ America war no one comes out that as a victor. I can see China putting pressure on Iran to spring clean their house and to hold elections to passive the west. I'm doubtful we see a war with China anytime soon, or at least in our life time.
Can't decide if I want to be cute & cuddly, or go blow some sh*t up.
Decisions decisions.
snowminer
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I don't believe that you nor any meaningful number of Christians are actually plotting to destroy the world to bring about the Second Coming. The point is that if we must destroy the Islamic Republic because some of their leaders are purported to believe that cataclysm in the middle east is a harbinger of prophecy, then the same argument can be made back at us, as there are Christians here, some in this administration, who also believe that cataclysm in the middle east is a harbinger of prophecy, specifically the Second Coming of Christ.

Should Iran engage with us under the presumption that we believe their destruction at our hands is ordained by God? I don't think they should, nor do I believe that we should engage with Iran as though they are Islamic fundamentalists without reason. We need to engage with the strategic reality, not religious fantasy. To eliminate the Islamic Republic would be a monumental task, and it is not a task that we would be able to achieve through bombing alone. So unless we are prepared to engage in another catastrophic ground-invasion, we should be prepared that we will inevitably have to make diplomatic peace with the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Dungeon Crawler Carl
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There it is.......an off ramp for Trump to take.

He can come out tonight and declare this needs to deescalate before it gets out of hand, throw Israeli under the global bus, and get out of this with just a mild to rough recession heading into the mid-terms.

Does he have the balls to do it? Let's wait and see.




Who?mikejones!
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We aren't attacking Iran because of the alleged doom the islamist claim will happen from a religious cataclysm.

That might be what some crazies claim, but its no where near the truth
Who?mikejones!
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Lolz
Ag with kids
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Looks like we popped his Cherry...
Slicer97
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snowminer said:

I don't believe that you nor any meaningful number of Christians are actually plotting to destroy the world to bring about the Second Coming. The point is that if we must destroy the Islamic Republic because some of their leaders are purported to believe that cataclysm in the middle east is a harbinger of prophecy, then the same argument can be made back at us, as there are Christians here, some in this administration, who also believe that cataclysm in the middle east is a harbinger of prophecy, specifically the Second Coming of Christ.

Should Iran engage with us under the presumption that we believe their destruction at our hands is ordained by God? I don't think they should, nor do I believe that we should engage with Iran as though they are Islamic fundamentalists without reason. We need to engage with the strategic reality, not religious fantasy. To eliminate the Islamic Republic would be a monumental task, and it is not a task that we would be able to achieve through bombing alone. So unless we are prepared to engage in another catastrophic ground-invasion, we should be prepared that we will inevitably have to make diplomatic peace with the Islamic Republic of Iran.



Thing is, their leadership is exactly that. Not the Iranian people, but the people running the government that have been attacking our military personnel through proxies. It's not Good vs. Evil, it's Us vs. Them. I don't believe Trump has any desire or intention to put boots on the ground over there. The idea is to obliterate their military infrastructure and leadership through an air campaign with coordination with Israel to the point where the Iranian people can overthrow what's left and take back control of their country with arms assistance from us/Israel.
infinity ag
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Ok. Where are we with this war? Our stock market's been in shambles. Job market is in shambles.
Everyone claims everything is awwwwwrightttttt.

What is Trump's exit out of Iran? Are we going to install some puppet to rule Iran?
Slicer97
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infinity ag said:

Ok. Where are we with this war? Our stock market's been in shambles. Job market is in shambles.
Everyone claims everything is awwwwwrightttttt.

What is Trump's exit out of Iran? Are we going to install some puppet to rule Iran?

Doubt it. Let the Iranian people figure that out for themselves. We're just removing their ability to strike us and, to a degree, Israel who is taking an active part.
Old McDonald
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this regime has lived under the threat of obliteration at the hands of the west for decades, it stands to reason they've prepared for how to make that obliteration as painful as possible for us and the rest of the world.

perhaps trump and his admin should have considered there were valid reasons the "eunuch presidents" (to borrow a term from another poster) preceding him didn't try to take on iran, but then again that would require him to have perspective instead of irrational confidence in the inevitability of their own success.
Hullabaloonatic
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richardag said:

FobTies said:

richardag said:


I haven't moved any goalposts.

Explain Korean War, Vietnam War, iIraq War, Syrian War, Afghanistan War, Indian Wars, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Libya (bombing), Iran-Contra wars, Barbary Wars, Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo Wars, ISIS War.

Your original arguement was that Massie was ignorant of our founders intent about the justification for war.

Then you moved the argument to reference modern wars generations after the death of our founders. Those wars may set precedence, but they are totally irrelevant to any "arguments made by our founders".

Thats called moving the goal posts. Carry on.

if Congress follows the Constitution they have only 2 options, the power of the purse strings and impeachment.

Impeachment would be more difficult as they must prove criminal or treasonous acts.

lol normally sure, but with this President?
Dungeon Crawler Carl
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Who?mikejones! said:

Lolz



Hmmmm....looks like he's trying to brake for the off-ramp, doesn't it?
 
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