Really? Did you even watch the film? Lightsaber literally cut through him. Top half of his body falls on the floor. Quite a bit later, when Hux is in the room, all the body parts are still there and the bottom half falls off the chair. But sure, whatever, spout off some crap that isn't true. Just to further your hate for the film. We saw clearly with Luke's manifestation that a lightsaber goes right through him.Iowaggie said:
And as far as we know, Snoke in that scene could have been a projection and may show up later.
.....
*** SW: The Last Jedi - FULL SPOILERS BE IN HERE ***
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You do have a point that her plan to turn Kylo back to good failed, and she does fail in one very specific way a couple of times. Each time she tries to get a male character to help her, they don't. At least not at first, and then ultimately they change their mind.Beat40 said:
Sure, but I still think we see her fail in that she was very confident that he would turn to the light. The issue is we haven't seen the ramifications of that failure yet. Personally I'm hoping Episode IX in the beginning shows that her going directly to Snoke and trying to turn Kyle is a huge disaster.
She tried to talk Finn into joining the resistance but he said no and was going to run away (but then changed his mind after she was taken), she tried to talk Luke into joining the resistance and he said no (but then changed his mind) and then tried to talk Kylo into joining the resistance and he said no (ultimate arc still pending...)
That's not to reignite the THIS IS A SJW VEHICLE absurdity, but the only way we see Rey fail at all is when she's trying to get a male character to do something.
I 100% disagree with this. I think their connection will be the primary driving plot device of the next movie.AliasMan02 said:
3. They obviously had some connection that lingered, but I doubt it lasts into Episode IX, but will fade away or at least be far less powerful. Even in the last scene, it isn't the same as it was previously. They sense each other, but don't have the actual interaction. You have to recognize it as the narrative element that it was. Snoke being dead is all the excuse that is needed to have the connection be severed, or at least greatly reduced.
1. If that's true, why did all the fire from the AT-AT's not hurt him and Kylo's lightsaber didn't hurt him or then went straight through him when Kylo realized what it was. Don't agree that he was physically there as in flesh and blood.AliasMan02 said:So, I've been absent from the thread so I'm just kinda picking up from the end. Sorry if I'm repeating anything.FTACO97 said:
So just home from my 3rd viewing and a couple random items that caught my eye this time:
- During Luke's "force out-of-body manifestation" - not only did he fool all the people in the room, but C-3PO also saw him. Thought that was pretty interesting. Says to me it's not a "mind trick" but actually a visible manifestation in the mine if a droid is able to see him as well.
To your three points:
1. Luke's manifestation is not a mind trick. He is actually there while simultaneously being on Ahch-To. It's bilocation. He's literally in both places at once. The movie built to this moment, with each of the Kylo-Rey conversations adding to the foundation. One of those building blocks was establishing that Kylo was actually with Rey on the island because while standing on the bridge of his ship, he got wet. That's why 3P0 and everyone else could see Luke, because he wasn't broadcasting into anyone's mind. He actually had some level of physical presence.
I'm pretty sure he was just kidding about the snoke being a hologram bit...
Agreed. Them not interacting in that last scene was more about symbolism: she knows he is a lost cause at this pointbobinator said:I 100% disagree with this. I think their connection will be the primary driving plot device of the next movie.AliasMan02 said:
3. They obviously had some connection that lingered, but I doubt it lasts into Episode IX, but will fade away or at least be far less powerful. Even in the last scene, it isn't the same as it was previously. They sense each other, but don't have the actual interaction. You have to recognize it as the narrative element that it was. Snoke being dead is all the excuse that is needed to have the connection be severed, or at least greatly reduced.
Yeah, at least for now. I don't think she's completely given up yet.
FTACO97 said:1. If that's true, why did all the fire from the AT-AT's not hurt him and Kylo's lightsaber didn't hurt him or then went straight through him when Kylo realized what it was. Don't agree that he was physically there as in flesh and blood.AliasMan02 said:So, I've been absent from the thread so I'm just kinda picking up from the end. Sorry if I'm repeating anything.FTACO97 said:
So just home from my 3rd viewing and a couple random items that caught my eye this time:
- During Luke's "force out-of-body manifestation" - not only did he fool all the people in the room, but C-3PO also saw him. Thought that was pretty interesting. Says to me it's not a "mind trick" but actually a visible manifestation in the mine if a droid is able to see him as well.
To your three points:
1. Luke's manifestation is not a mind trick. He is actually there while simultaneously being on Ahch-To. It's bilocation. He's literally in both places at once. The movie built to this moment, with each of the Kylo-Rey conversations adding to the foundation. One of those building blocks was establishing that Kylo was actually with Rey on the island because while standing on the bridge of his ship, he got wet. That's why 3P0 and everyone else could see Luke, because he wasn't broadcasting into anyone's mind. He actually had some level of physical presence.
Because it's mysticism.
He touched people. He was seen by dozens of people... hundreds, even. Including a Droid. He was physically there, and he wasn't, pretty much as it suited him, just as he had control over his appearance.
He was decided less "there" in the battle, for sure. Didn't touch Kylo. Didn't disturb the salt with his feet. His ability to corporeal or not is obviously under his control.
bobinator said:I 100% disagree with this. I think their connection will be the primary driving plot device of the next movie.AliasMan02 said:
3. They obviously had some connection that lingered, but I doubt it lasts into Episode IX, but will fade away or at least be far less powerful. Even in the last scene, it isn't the same as it was previously. They sense each other, but don't have the actual interaction. You have to recognize it as the narrative element that it was. Snoke being dead is all the excuse that is needed to have the connection be severed, or at least greatly reduced.
Maybe. I think that will be tough to resolve along with what I assume will be a time jump of many years, with Rey and Kylo Being psychic pen pals that whole time
Not necessarily, it could be something they both try to ignore while they're accomplishing other things first. Kylo needs to get the galaxy back in order. Keep in mind his destruction of the republic still basically just happened and what appeared to be a significant part of his fleet just got vaporized. Rey is presumably going to try to find and train new Jedi.
So it's there, but it isn't the most important thing at the moment.
So it's there, but it isn't the most important thing at the moment.
bobinator said:You do have a point that her plan to turn Kylo back to good failed, and she does fail in one very specific way a couple of times. Each time she tries to get a male character to help her, they don't. At least not at first, and then ultimately they change their mind.Beat40 said:
Sure, but I still think we see her fail in that she was very confident that he would turn to the light. The issue is we haven't seen the ramifications of that failure yet. Personally I'm hoping Episode IX in the beginning shows that her going directly to Snoke and trying to turn Kyle is a huge disaster.
She tried to talk Finn into joining the resistance but he said no and was going to run away (but then changed his mind after she was taken), she tried to talk Luke into joining the resistance and he said no (but then changed his mind) and then tried to talk Kylo into joining the resistance and he said no (ultimate arc still pending...)
That's not to reignite the THIS IS A SJW VEHICLE absurdity, but the only way we see Rey fail at all is when she's trying to get a male character to do something.
I'm with you. I'd like to see her fail from an ability standpoint at the beginning of the next movie. I won't be terribly disappointed if she doesn't, but at least right now we don't see the immediate impact of failing with Kylo. Would be good to see some ability failure in the beginning of the next movie to add some depth to her character.
bobinator said:
Not necessarily, it could be something they both try to ignore while they're accomplishing other things first. Kylo needs to get the galaxy back in order. Keep in mind his destruction of the republic still basically just happened and what appeared to be a significant part of his fleet just got vaporized. Rey is presumably going to try to find and train new Jedi.
So it's there, but it isn't the most important thing at the moment.
Or maybe they learn to guard their mind from each other. I don't know. Going to have to trust JJ with this one I suppose.
Yeah, it would be nice if her victories felt more earned. I mean hell, Harry Potter went through more than Rey has so far.
bobinator said:
Yeah, it would be nice if her victories felt more earned. I mean hell, Harry Potter went through more than Rey has so far.
Those saying she never failed are selling her short. The first 19 years of her life were failure, after all. Kylo defeated her in their first encounter. She was rescued by Han, Finn, and Chewie and then again by Chewie.
But she does seem to be quite adept. I thought they made an adequate explanation, but will be nice to see her struggle a bit to pass along what she has learned.
This goes with another item that I saw in my viewing last night. Snoke explained it that as darkness grows strong, light rises to meet it. They assumed it was Luke but it was actually Rey. So I guess this plays into the "balance" of the force. Insinuating that Rey has become so strong in the light-side of the force because Ben has become so powerful in the dark-side.AliasMan02 said:bobinator said:
Yeah, it would be nice if her victories felt more earned. I mean hell, Harry Potter went through more than Rey has so far.
Those saying she never failed are selling her short. The first 19 years of her life were failure, after all. Kylo defeated her in their first encounter. She was rescued by Han, Finn, and Chewie and then again by Chewie.
But she does seem to be quite adept. I thought they made an adequate explanation, but will be nice to see her struggle a bit to pass along what she has learned.
We don't see any of that happen on screen though. We see her screaming after her family for like five seconds but we don't see any of her upbringing. We don't see her have to be rescued by Chewie in TLJ, she just appears on screen again being great at using the gun on the Falcon.AliasMan02 said:
Those saying she never failed are selling her short. The first 19 years of her life were failure, after all. Kylo defeated her in their first encounter. She was rescued by Han, Finn, and Chewie and then again by Chewie.
And she didn't really have to be rescued by Han, Finn and Chewie, she was doing a pretty good job of escaping on her own. She out-mind-forced Kylo and had already figured out she could plant thoughts (or whatever you want to call that) in stormtroopers. She'd even already acquired a weapon.
Another ten minutes and she'd have probably stolen a TIE fighter and been good to go.
She did 'lose' her first encounter with Kylo, but only because she didn't really know she had the force (or really even what the force is) yet so she didn't even know to try it.
I don't hate her character by any stretch, I think she's great, I just agree that it would make her big moments feel more earned if we got to actually see her struggle with stuff a little bit.
The only problem with this "balance of the force" thing is that Luke does come back and show himself to be EXTREMELY powerful at the end of the movie. So by doing that, combined with Snoke's death, did he just create some sort of super evil dark side baby somewhere?
Depends how quick the force works.bobinator said:
The only problem with this "balance of the force" thing is that Luke does come back and show himself to be EXTREMELY powerful at the end of the movie. So by doing that, combined with Snoke's death, did he just create some sort of super evil dark side baby somewhere?
*Luke manifests himself on Crait through the force*
THE FORCE: CREATE COUNTERBALANCING NOW!!!!
or....
THE FORCE: Create counterbal....oh wait, he dead....nevermind.
No, no, no!bobinator said:
She has the jedi texts and there's clearly a hint at the end of The Last Jedi that there are people powerful with the force out there. Again, it would require a pretty big time jump before the events of the next movie start.
"It's been 10 years since the handful of rebels escaped from Scarif. Leia has been covertly scouring the galaxy trying to reorganize the rebellion. Rey has begun training a new generation of Jedi. The First Order hasn't given up the search, but with the death of Snoke was forced to focus efforts elsewhere...."
Something along those lines.
That's not how you come up with a Star Wars movie plot!
You decide you want add a female Asian and an older female with purple hair to the character lineup then build a plot around that!
C'mon man!
Stuff like this is why talking about Star Wars is so exhausting. It's like trying to talk Aggie football on the Zoo or Premium.
That kid on Canto Bight probably turned evil the moment Yoda zapped that tree.
In IX, Rey and Kylo hook up and Rey goe to the Darkside to rule for a generation.FTACO97 said:
- Rey and Kylo still have a force connection at the end as she's leaving on the Falcon and Kylo looks at her. So Snoke may have started the connection but it's still there.
Her offspring grows up, finds the old books, and ditches the family to study the true ways of the force.
His group of force followers wind up building the new rebellion and overthrowing Reylo.
or Luke was the counterbalance to Snoke. Snoke dies, there's a huge swing towards the Light. Luke feels the imbalance, space projects, passes on, and it all balances back out.AgMarauder04 said:Depends how quick the force works.bobinator said:
The only problem with this "balance of the force" thing is that Luke does come back and show himself to be EXTREMELY powerful at the end of the movie. So by doing that, combined with Snoke's death, did he just create some sort of super evil dark side baby somewhere?
*Luke manifests himself on Crait through the force*
THE FORCE: CREATE COUNTERBALANCING NOW!!!!
or....
THE FORCE: Create counterbal....oh wait, he dead....nevermind.
Also, I am thinking with Rian, he is pulling another "they will never see this coming" bit with the whole exposure of Rey as JAG (just a girl).
In Empire the big shocker was that Vader claimed he was Luke's father. It wasn't "proven" until Obiwan came back to talk to Luke about it.
What is the opposite of that, for shock value, that Rian could do?
Have Vader2/Kylo claim that Rey was not related to anyone at all, just a nobody. Then reveal in the next movie that her parents were known but are now dead, and so from a certain point of view, she was a nobody fro nowhere... JAG.
...
The problem with her being nobody from nowhere. Is that by the mere fact that she is strong in the force means that she is destined to be a Someone in the galaxy.
In Empire the big shocker was that Vader claimed he was Luke's father. It wasn't "proven" until Obiwan came back to talk to Luke about it.
What is the opposite of that, for shock value, that Rian could do?
Have Vader2/Kylo claim that Rey was not related to anyone at all, just a nobody. Then reveal in the next movie that her parents were known but are now dead, and so from a certain point of view, she was a nobody fro nowhere... JAG.
...
The problem with her being nobody from nowhere. Is that by the mere fact that she is strong in the force means that she is destined to be a Someone in the galaxy.
They've definitely left the door open for the fact that her parents are in fact somebody (and Kylo just doesn't know it), but now that would seem to go against the entire theme of the second movie. Though a lot of the second movie went against expectations the first movie built up, so who knows.
Calling it now, Rey's father is Thanos. Soul Gem is revealed to be the source of the Force.
Yeah, I'm mostly just joking around with this stuff, but it is a bit odd how sometimes the force seems like a very specific measurable thing (not even talking about the Phantom Menace here) and then at other times it's like a mystical presence that's basically unknowable and has its own will for the galaxy.TexasAggie_02 said:
or Luke was the counterbalance to Snoke. Snoke dies, there's a huge swing towards the Light. Luke feels the imbalance, space projects, passes on, and it all balances back out.
If the force itself can will things, it really sucks at it.
Yeah that kid has a future name of Darth Nefarious written all over him.CJS4715 said:
This whole thing about the force balancing itself is pretty stupid, if you ask me. Blame that on Lucas, I guess.
Overall, I think there are adequate explanations for Rey.AliasMan02 said:
Those saying she never failed are selling her short. The first 19 years of her life were failure, after all. Kylo defeated her in their first encounter. She was rescued by Han, Finn, and Chewie and then again by Chewie.
But she does seem to be quite adept. I thought they made an adequate explanation, but will be nice to see her struggle a bit to pass along what she has learned.
So we have seen Rey be torn down from being desperate to find her place in others to realizing she only needs herself. Emotionally we have seen her torn down, which is great. I'm glad we now have a character who has confidence and purpose. This certainly is a true struggle and something our hero must go through.
However, I think we need to see her struggle with the force. The precedent has been set in every single move that the force is difficult. If she never struggles with it, I do think her character will feel cheapened despite her emotional development.
Honestly, I really would like to see her struggle with the force and the affect that has on her newfound confidence. She says she has this confidence and purpose in relation to the force - let's test it.
I tend to agree. All of her struggles are mostly circumstantial and outside her control. It'd be nice to see her set out to do something and utterly fail. But, now, we have to complete her story and others in 150 minutes, so it's going to be tough to get that point across.
Her description of the force being within her but now awake is interesting. I don't recall Luke ever feeling there was something special about him, nor does Anakin even realize it in TPM. But now we have Rey with no training performing jedi mind tricks and stable boy force pulling a broom to make his chores more interesting.
Her description of the force being within her but now awake is interesting. I don't recall Luke ever feeling there was something special about him, nor does Anakin even realize it in TPM. But now we have Rey with no training performing jedi mind tricks and stable boy force pulling a broom to make his chores more interesting.
Little Anakin definitely does, even if he doesn't have the right name for it. He knows he's the only human who can pod race, for example. He definitely knows there's something different about himself.
Luke's is a bit different, but I'd say it's still there. He doesn't necessarily say that he thinks he's special, but he does feel called to leave home and make more of himself.
Luke's is a bit different, but I'd say it's still there. He doesn't necessarily say that he thinks he's special, but he does feel called to leave home and make more of himself.
I don't understand this need to see a character fail at something. Lots of things and people go through life and don't have this life altering failure. It's called winning at life.
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