*** SW: The Last Jedi - FULL SPOILERS BE IN HERE ***

358,920 Views | 3129 Replies | Last: 8 mo ago by Definitely Not A Cop
Bunk Moreland
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aTmAg said:

DannyDuberstein said:

Enough of a stretch that it never occurred to Poe, Rose, or Finn. Just emphasizes bow nonsensical the Canto Bight story was.
Poe and Finn didn't know about the cloaking devices and Rose is not smart... both in that she blabbed and didn't put it together on her own. Not everybody is a super genius.

But apparently everybody is a super badass pilot even with zero experience should the situation present itself.
FTACO97
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letters at random said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

letters at random said:

I don't think any are WAY better. Some are better, though.


You know what, I'll modify my statement. I do think a few are WAY better (both GOTGs, Spiderman Homecoming, Iron Man, Winter Soldier), but some are simply better, and at worst there are a few on par with TLJ.....hell, I'll even give you The Dark World being worse than it.
Iron Man and the two GOTG movies are a LITTLE better. Those are the only Marvel movies that are better than TLJ. Winter Soldier was a good movie, but not as good as TLJ. Spiderman Homecoming was okay, but overrated.
I was right there with you and aTm until this statement.....I really liked TLJ but there's no way I'd put it above Winter Soldier or Spiderman Homecoming.
FTACO97
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SeattleAgJr said:

......

Holy crap, I got my say in in about 8 posts and then moved on.


Bahahahahahaha.....funniest statement so far in this thread
The Collective
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FTACO97 said:

SeattleAgJr said:

......

Holy crap, I got my say in in about 8 posts and then moved on.


Bahahahahahaha.....funniest statement so far in this thread

G Martin 87
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Bruce Almighty said:

So it's ok to have bad space physics as long as it's the same bad space physics from the original trilogy?
I know you're trying to make a point about the necessity of overlooking hard science for entertainment, but the actual answer to your question is "yes." Yes, it is better from a plot and story continuity standpoint to stay consistent with the "rules" you've set up for your imaginary world. The exception is when the deviation from the "rules" *is* the story. Numerous examples exist in Star Trek and speculative fiction. But TLJ is not about what happens to society when hyperdrive kamikaze attacks with capital ships become a viable military strategy. I might actually be interested in a movie that explores that as the plot. TLJ doesn't do that, though.
Not a Bot
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BlueSmoke said:

Sigh...

This movie is to Star Wars what Season Eight is to Walking Dead. Trying to get cute. Lazy writing. Pseudo-intellectualism. And gaping plot-holes.

Lets start with tactical issues. How do bombs "fall" in space (assume others mentioned this already)? Assume they get around this. In an age of lasers, missiles, and fighter jets. A weapons platform that must be directly OVER and dangerously close to it's target is absurd. The FO ships had cannons plucking cruisers from the air, yet these lumbering ships closed the distance? Just stop...

Light speed ramming? Isn't virtually every ship in the universe light-speed capable? Then why the he** isn't every massed armada decimated in a matter of minutes by a small fleet of remote-piloted tankers and other assorted fodder? Doesn't this render blockades and other static targets obsolete overnight?


The opening battle also killed me a little for the same reason. The bomb scene was absurd in and of itself, but also seemed a huge step back in tech from they they were in A New Hope with proton torpedoes and much faster attack craft. Maybe they were using ancient weapons for lack of their own, but that wasn't explained. I realize it was an homage to WWI and WWII movies, but come on. I do think I rememberthe bombs had some sort of engine launching them toward the ship and were not just falling, but I could be wrong.

As for the light speed ramming, I can get behind that if the explanation is it was only effective due to the supermassive nature of the cruiser involved. Other ships might just bounce off of whatever shield technology they were using. But maybe not.
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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Quote:

The bomb scene was absurd in and of itself, but also seemed a huge step back in tech from they they were in A New Hope with proton torpedoes and much faster attack craft.
I will refer you to the asteroid chase in The Empire Strikes Back with TIE Bombers dropping bombs on the asteroid to flush out the Millennium Falcon.

Yes, these bombers were pretty much Gotha bombers from WWI going on a bombing run against a modern day target, but I still thought it was a neat sequence. For me, I long ago just accepted the idea of an X-Wing being able to fly in atmosphere (despite its obvious lack of stabilizers and a rudder), so it's not any big step to accept "dropping" bombs in space.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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FTACO97 said:

MuckRaker96 said:

...

I hate not knowing anything more about Snoke than I did at this time in 2015.


I keep seeing this all over the web and this thread and I really don't get it. Let's go back in time to after you watched Return of the Jedi. What did you really know about the Emperor? He was not fleshed out in ESB or ROTJ any more than Snoke was. Lucas then gave us way too much background on him in the prequels and now people think Rian Johnson should have given us Snoke's life story.
It cheapens the role of Palpatine in the OT that there was some other guy 30 years later who was super strong in the force and leading another version of the Empire. Makes it seem like Palpatine was nothing special.
G Martin 87
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Two things really irritate me about the B-17 attack, neither of which have anything whatsoever to do with bad space physics.

1. The Rebels/Resistance had better, more effective technology for decades prior to TLJ. A WWII bombing run is just silly given the situation and the technology available.

2. The real purpose of using the B-17 imagery was to set up the tension and sacrifice of Rose's sister. That's it. And Rose was an unnecessary character anyway, added by Rian only because he couldn't find a way to make the Poe-Finn mission to Canto Bight "interesting."
Ag Since 83
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As discussed earlier in this thread, you can come up with an explanation of the bombs given artificial gravity within a bomber and then inertia once out (although that same inertia principle might make it irrelevant if the cruiser runs out of fuel later...)

I can't think of many movies in this genre that are completely free of logical flaws - just a matter of what bothers you and what doesn't. TLJ seems to have really hit the sweet spot on splitting the audience on that one
The Collective
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2nd viewing at 3pm for me, taking my mom and my son. Excited to see how this looks a second time.
Dr. Teeth
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The bombs falling in space isn't even in the top 100 problems with this movie.

The bottom line for me is this: TLJ turned one of my biggest childhood heroes into a murderous cowardly POS, and basically undid everything in TFA that made me give a **** about any of the new characters.
The Collective
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Dr. Teeth said:

The bombs falling in space isn't even in the top 100 problems with this movie.

The bottom line for me is this: TLJ turned one of my biggest childhood heroes into a murderous cowardly POS, and basically undid everything in TFA that made me give a **** about any of the new characters.


You don't like Kylo's character? I think he is great.
FTACO97
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Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

Quote:

The bomb scene was absurd in and of itself, but also seemed a huge step back in tech from they they were in A New Hope with proton torpedoes and much faster attack craft.
I will refer you to the asteroid chase in The Empire Strikes Back with TIE Bombers dropping bombs on the asteroid to flush out the Millennium Falcon.

Yes, these bombers were pretty much Gotha bombers from WWI going on a bombing run against a modern day target, but I still thought it was a neat sequence. For me, I long ago just accepted the idea of an X-Wing being able to fly in atmosphere (despite its obvious lack of stabilizers and a rudder), so it's not any big step to accept "dropping" bombs in space.
The bomb dropping didn't bother me much. In discussion with some coworkers and friends, I think they at least showed it's feasibility, so bear with me:

The bomber has an artificial gravity inside it. We know that because the crew members were walking around the ship and not floating in zero gravity. When she presses the button to let the bombs go, they fall for a certain period of time in this artificial gravity and once they leave the ship, they continue on the trajectory that they started. So with that theory, it's not so challenging that they would continue on that path and eventually hit the dreadnought. Savvy?
DannyDuberstein
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I didnt care about the bomber. And while the hyper speed kamikaze opens a can of worms, I think that was a reasonable sacrifice for a great scene. I really did not like the tracker tech though. It undermines so much that has been key to the series, and it was done for a lousy storyline.
FTACO97
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G Martin 87 said:

Two things really irritate me about the B-17 attack, neither of which have anything whatsoever to do with bad space physics.

1. The Rebels/Resistance had better, more effective technology for decades prior to TLJ. A WWII bombing run is just silly given the situation and the technology available.

While I can agree that the bombers used in the OT seemed to be technologically superior to the bombers used at the start of the film, I still remember the pilot chatter and imagery that the Y-wings, etc were still glorified WWII bombers in that they had to get in position for their bombing run and had no defensive weapons. Also, FWIW this story feels like they've pretty much depleted all of their ships, etc and what we see in TLJ is what's left of the Resistance fleet. The point of the attack at the first of the film for me is to show that Poe was reckless in defying a direct order from Leia and basically destroyed what was left of their bombers and most of their X-wings.
G Martin 87
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DannyDuberstein said:

I didnt care about the bomber. And while the light speed kamikaze opens a can of worms, I think that was a reasonable sacrifice for a great scene. I really did not like the tracker tech though. It undermines so much that has been key to the series, and it was done for a lousy storyline.
Agree completely with you on the "tracker" stuff. It's a great example of adding something to a story that leads to adding other things to the story to deal with problems that could have been avoided by not adding it in the first place. Just like when Daenerys got stuck in Meereen for a book and a half, which led to creating the whole Quentyn Martell subplot to get her out of Meereen. What the hell was I thinking?
FTACO97
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MuckRaker96 said:

FTACO97 said:

MuckRaker96 said:

...

I hate not knowing anything more about Snoke than I did at this time in 2015.


I keep seeing this all over the web and this thread and I really don't get it. Let's go back in time to after you watched Return of the Jedi. What did you really know about the Emperor? He was not fleshed out in ESB or ROTJ any more than Snoke was. Lucas then gave us way too much background on him in the prequels and now people think Rian Johnson should have given us Snoke's life story.
It cheapens the role of Palpatine in the OT that there was some other guy 30 years later who was super strong in the force and leading another version of the Empire. Makes it seem like Palpatine was nothing special.
The feeling I get from Snoke and Kylo Ren is that these guys aren't Sith. And one of the points that Rian Johnson is making in the TLJ is that the old ways are over. No more Jedi/Sith conflict, now it's just people who are able to use the force, either light or dark. So in that sense, it doesn't bother me that Snoke becomes a very powerful dark force user somewhere in the universe and then comes to power in the vacuum left by the death of Palpatine.
dave94
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Dr. Teeth said:

TLJ turned one of my biggest childhood heroes into a murderous cowardly POS
Who did Luke murder?
The Collective
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dave94 said:

Dr. Teeth said:

TLJ turned one of my biggest childhood heroes into a murderous cowardly POS
Who did Luke murder?


Younglings

Liquid Wrench
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Quote:

The feeling I get from Snoke and Kylo Ren is that these guys aren't Sith.
Rule of Two seemed to be in place.

Unless you count the rumored Knights of Ren we never get to see.
FTACO97
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ChiliBeans said:


Quote:

The feeling I get from Snoke and Kylo Ren is that these guys aren't Sith.
Rule of Two seemed to be in place.

Unless you count the rumored Knights of Ren we never get to see.
I agree we should have seen something of the Knights of Ren, but that's part of why I don't consider them Sith. Snoke talks about these knights several times and he never mentions the Sith or the master/apprentice concept.
Murder Hornet
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Would be kind of cool if during the events of TLJ, the KoR were hunting and "recruiting" force sensitive children across the galaxy while Kylo was hunting Rey and trying to turn her. They could explain that in the ep IX crawl as well and then get an opening scene of them.

That could go a long way of answering a question about them and preventing an Abrams wild goose chase
Dr. Teeth
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bthomas98 said:

Would be kind of cool if during the events of TLJ, the KoR were hunting and "recruiting" force sensitive children across the galaxy while Kylo was hunting Rey and trying to turn her. They could explain that in the ep IX crawl as well and then get an opening scene of them.

That could go a long way of answering a question about them and preventing an Abrams wild goose chase


Even cooler.... Make that episode 8 and skip this worthless POS movie entirely.
Dr. Teeth
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dave94 said:

Dr. Teeth said:

TLJ turned one of my biggest childhood heroes into a murderous cowardly POS
Who did Luke murder?


Lol, okay, let's just pretend you didn't notice Luke about to off his nephew.

Ep. 7. Han's a deadbeat dad.
Ep. 8. Luke wants to kill kids.
Ep. 9. Let me guess, Leia's been turning tricks on Canto Bight to pay for bombers.
Liquid Wrench
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Quote:

Snoke talks about these knights several times and he never mentions the Sith or the master/apprentice concept.
Unless I'm having an acid flashback, Snoke called Kyler "my apprentice" in the crimson court throne room.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Dr. Teeth said:

dave94 said:

Dr. Teeth said:

TLJ turned one of my biggest childhood heroes into a murderous cowardly POS
Who did Luke murder?


Lol, okay, let's just pretend you didn't notice Luke about to off his nephew.

Ep. 7. Han's a deadbeat dad.
Ep. 8. Luke wants to kill kids.
Ep. 9. Let me guess, Leia's been turning tricks on Canto Bight to pay for bombers.


Murderous and cowardly....wow.....exaggerate much?


I mean he killed nobody.....but still even assuming he was going to......

If you kill someone who was going to kill millions...are you saying that's a bad thing???

so killing Hitler in 1936 is that a good thing or a bad thing?


Not to mention there is no evidence Han was a deadbeat dad....a highly troubled and rebellious kid and he basically cut him off....thats not deadbeat thats tough love or simply distancing yourself from a bad apple.
Forum Troll
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Dr. Teeth said:

The bombs falling in space isn't even in the top 100 problems with this movie.

The bottom line for me is this: TLJ turned one of my biggest childhood heroes into a murderous cowardly POS, and basically undid everything in TFA that made me give a **** about any of the new characters.
SIAP but this sums up what I feel about Luke as well.

https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-skywalker-legacy/
Ag Since 83
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According to the Visual Dictionary, Snoke is not a Sith
BlueSmoke
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This all makes sense from a messaging standpoint - but there are better ways to convey reckless behavior and the consequences in human lives.

To me, it gets back to lazy writing. Over emphasizing the message while botching the delivery.

The equivalent of a self-sacrificing gun fight with the hero firing a weapon NOT ejecting brass and having a closed bolt-cover the whole time. I'm done at this point...

"bombs" in the SW universe. Essentially "dumb" platforms dependent on a kinetic connection to detonate in an age of weapons able to eradicate planets is beyond absurd. Even if they have a mechanism to "launch" them...the user is still dependent upon them "floating" to their intended target and crossing their fingers that they connect. Even the cartoon series with the "Y-Wing" they had better sense. Larger, slower craft needing fighter support to deliver accurately delivered proton torpedoes (yeah, remember these? The things you can launch that destroyed the Death Star).....
Nobody cares. Work Harder
Bruce Almighty
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In Star Wars, didn't the torpedoes "drop" into the death star?





Saxsoon
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Interesting take I heard on a podcast

First three films show a democratized force that anyone can use. There is no emphasis on bloodlines, which anakin truly was a no one

The OT and end of the prequels show a chosen one who decides that no one should have access to the force except for himself. Only of that same chosen bloodline has a new force user arisen

The new trilogy show a force that is being redemocratized for all and bloodlines need not apply

Funky Winkerbean
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Why don't the good guys ever have the biggest and baddest weapon?
Definitely Not A Cop
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BernArnold said:

Dr. Teeth said:

dave94 said:

Dr. Teeth said:

TLJ turned one of my biggest childhood heroes into a murderous cowardly POS
Who did Luke murder?


Lol, okay, let's just pretend you didn't notice Luke about to off his nephew.

Ep. 7. Han's a deadbeat dad.
Ep. 8. Luke wants to kill kids.
Ep. 9. Let me guess, Leia's been turning tricks on Canto Bight to pay for bombers.


Murderous and cowardly....wow.....exaggerate much?


I mean he killed nobody.....but still even assuming he was going to......

If you kill someone who was going to kill millions...are you saying that's a bad thing???

so killing Hitler in 1936 is that a good thing or a bad thing?




If Mace Windu hadn't tried to kill Palpatine, we likely don't have Star Wars episodes 4-9.
The Collective
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Just got back from TLJ, and I've gone from "think I liked it" to "love it". I wasn't bogged down in stuff that upset me the first time, and I was finally able to accept Luke's role in this movie (even if it still makes me frustrated). I looked at my son a lot during the movie, and he was glued with pure joy for most of the film, even parts that I assumed were slow and that he'd hate. The part where that damn BB8 droid is blowing **** up from a chicken walker pissed me off, but my son was flipping out, and yes, he just happened to have his bb8 stuffed animal (droid?) with him to take in the occasion.

And, got damn, the music is great. If this is the last Star Wars hurrah with John Williams, it will be sad. So much of this franchise is John Williams.
 
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