[Sticky] Digital Camera FAQ

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JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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8:15p, 5/22/09
I know the main page was done in 2007 - would you still recommend the 20D (my wife's camera that I got her - the xsi - is awesome and I was looking into the idea of getting myself an older one so we could share lenses but have our own bodies).

It seems pretty expensive still (given that it has been over a year since the original post).

Just curious as to your thoughts.
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Ag_of_08
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9:15p, 5/22/09
the 30 is down almost as cheap as the 20's are selling for...
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Guitarsoup
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9:24p, 5/22/09
I updated the main post this year and still rec the 20d. it is one of those great cameras that was done perfectly the first time.
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JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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9:28p, 5/22/09
That makes sense with respect to the pricing.
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Little Dobbie
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1:37a, 5/23/09
Why on earth get a 20D? May have been a good camera, but let it go. Pick up something in the XSi to T1i range instead, and load up on features.
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Ag_of_08
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2:46a, 5/23/09
Because the 20d is the superior camera?

The higher MP count is irrelevant for most photographers. Yes there are some people who need a 21mp full frame sensor- most beginners are not one of them. High ISO settings are marginally superior with the XSi over the 20d, the 30d is a little better than the 20d from what I've been told.

Control layouts and build quality are night and day. While I'm not a huge fan of the X0d controls anymore(personally I like my 1d's layout better but I'm strange), they're still far superior to the rebels. The frame rate is higher, and the autofocus is better....

Sorry, the rebel is still a rebel. I'd personally try to find a 30d over a 20d, it's simply an update of the 20, and priced nearly the same now...

[This message has been edited by Ag_of_08 (edited 5/23/2009 1:47a).]
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Guitarsoup
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10:28a, 5/23/09
A 20D has a more durable body. You can get one for $300 or less, where an T1i is going to run you about $900. For someone starting out, spending less on a body (that really won't depreciate much) is a very smart idea. If you have a $1500 budget, you can get a 20D+very nice lenses, or a T1i with some kit lenses. The 20D has a great autofocus, and shoots 5 fps, where the T1i only shoots 3, so if you are getting into kid sports, the difference between 5fps and 3fps is huge. And 8MP is PLENTY for 99% of people. I shoot weddings, sports, advertising pieces, etc and my main body is just 10MP, which is about right. I think at about 12MP, you are getting diminishing returns on a cropped sensor.

A 30D and a 20D are essentially the same camera, but the 30D has a superior buffer and a superior LCD. I'd get a 30D over the 20D if the price wasn't much different.

My mom likes the Rebel because it is small. But she also shoots on the green box. The Rebel is just way too small for my hands, and I need the better control layout of the XXD series bodies.
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JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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12:52p, 5/23/09
quote:
Why on earth get a 20D? May have been a good camera, but let it go. Pick up something in the XSi to T1i range instead, and load up on features.


I know this thread is huge, but a few pages back I had mentioned that I just bought my wife an Xsi for her birthday. In doing so I did a ton of research and have really sparked an interest in DSLRs of my own (she already liked the idea). Since we now have an Xsi, I don't feel like dropping ANOTHER $600+ bucks on a camera that would essentially just be "mine". I would like to have one for when she is using hers or when I just feel like doing something with my own and not having to take hers, but I don't want to buy another nice new camera when it sounds like I could buy an older one (20D, xti, etc.) for a fraction of the price and use it to get my skill level up, all the while having access to the xsi if I truly need one of the newer features.
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Little Dobbie
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4:09a, 5/24/09
You won't convince me that the 20D has any positives over the XSi, other than sturdiness and FPS. For the true beginner, you won't miss the 2 extra FPS. Comfort is debatable depending on the person.

You can find used ones cheaper than $600 easily: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=698319

If you look around on there, you can find plenty of 30Ds for $450 too.
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Ag_of_08
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4:17a, 5/24/09
The autofocus system IS superior to the XSi, as is buffer size. I believe flash sync speed is even higher. Batt life should be longer...


I'm failing to see ANYTHING beyond resolution the XSi offers over the 20/30d, save resolution. There's a plethora of opinions, from guys way over my head, hell guys probably over guitar's head(and that's a damn big difference), about cramming more megapixels on a 1.6x sensor, and it's failings/short comings.

Please tell me what features the XSi introduced that make it a superior camera to the 20/30d bodies?

You seem to have the "it's newer so it's better" mentality going on friend.

30d

20d

I trust adorama and there used department. My 1d came from them in fact


[This message has been edited by Ag_of_08 (edited 5/24/2009 3:22a).]
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Little Dobbie
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5:18a, 5/24/09
Live View, sensor cleaning (makes a huge difference), LCD size, USB 2.0.

Sensor size difference is negligible, go look at the specs. 337 square mm (20D) to 328.56 square mm (XSi). Both have a 3 second flash recycle.

I'll say it, since no one else will: A DSLR with a 1.8'' LCD is trash. Sorry. I have a point and shoot with a bigger screen. That's a make or break thing.

Either way, it's obvious you haven't compared the specs, and sounds like you haven't used a body with sensor cleaning, or you'd appreciate a feature like that a little more. Sure, it doesn't do the whole job, but it helps a hell of a lot more than nothing at all.
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Dr. Devil Dog
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8:38a, 5/24/09
quote:
You won't convince me that the 20D has any positives over the XSi, other than sturdiness and FPS.


Since it seems your mind is made up, I don't know why he would even bother looking at the specifications
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Karrde
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9:38a, 5/24/09
quote:
I believe flash sync speed is even higher.


quote:
Both have a 3 second flash recycle.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe flash sync has nothing to do with recycle time. It has to do with the time between flash and shutter, and how closely it can be aligned.
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Guitarsoup
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10:00a, 5/24/09
The XSi also uses SD cards. So when you grow and decide to get a bigger/better camera, you have to buy all new memory.

quote:
I'll say it, since no one else will: A DSLR with a 1.8'' LCD is trash. Sorry. I have a point and shoot with a bigger screen. That's a make or break thing.

That's pretty ignorant.
No one would choose a Rebel over a 1D mark II.
I wonder how big the LCD was on the back of Robert Capa or Henri Cartier-Breeson's Leicas.
Ansel Adams must have had a huge LCD for those pics he took.
I wonder how many test shots Joe Rosenthal took to make sure everything was right when he took the Iwo Jima pic.

We could always go do a shoot out. You could use your rebel with your 3.0" LCD, and I could use my camera with gaffers tape over the LCD and see which camera works better.


quote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe flash sync has nothing to do with recycle time. It has to do with the time between flash and shutter, and how closely it can be aligned.

This is correct. And if you are worried about the on camera flash recycle time, you probably aren't too concerned with quality.

quote:
Either way, it's obvious you haven't compared the specs, and sounds like you haven't used a body with sensor cleaning, or you'd appreciate a feature like that a little more. Sure, it doesn't do the whole job, but it helps a hell of a lot more than nothing at all.

That's pretty ridiculous.

I started out shooting film, developing it myself and scanning in the negs.

I've been a professional photographer since before automatic sensor cleaning was invented. I understand the benefits. It is nice to have, but it is unnecessary.

If you are paying ~4-500 more for a camera body that is quickly depreciating instead of buying better lenses which retain value or actually INCREASE in value to start a hobby, that may not be the best decision.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 5/24/2009 9:14a).]
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JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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11:13a, 5/24/09
Wow - I didn't intend to start a war here.

My whole point was that if I have access to my wife's xsi, and I can get a used 20D (or 30D) from around $400, then I'm willing to save the extra bucks and go that route.

If I could find a used Xsi for $450 or $500 I would consider doing that, but they're more right now.

Again - if I NEED live view, I can use the Xsi I just bought.

What it comes down to is that for my needs and what I want a 2nd camera for, I think a 20D/30D will work fine.
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Little Dobbie
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1:06p, 5/24/09
quote:
I wonder how many test shots Joe Rosenthal took to make sure everything was right when he took the Iwo Jima pic

You mean when he had them reenact the flag planting?

My point about the LCD was FOR THE SAME PRICE POINT, it's stupid to gimp yourself. Someone who needs less than an XTi doesn't give a s*** about the 1D series (and probably hasn't ever heard of it).
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Guitarsoup
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1:38p, 5/24/09
quote:
You mean when he had them reenact the flag planting?

Two flags were raised. It wasn't a reenactment. One was raised when they claimed the land, then another, larger flag was raised so the troops below could see the flag.

quote:

My point about the LCD was FOR THE SAME PRICE POINT, it's stupid to gimp yourself. Someone who needs less than an XTi doesn't give a s*** about the 1D series (and probably hasn't ever heard of it).

Yeah, that's a bogus point, though. You can get a 20D cheaper than an XTi.

A 30D can be had a little cheaper than an XTi and they have the same LCD. I'd MUCH rather have a 30D than an XTi. The 30D has a better pixel density, has 67% more FPS, has a studier body, has a better shutter, has a better buffer, has a better battery and has a better viewfinder.
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Tabasco
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2:24p, 5/24/09
Sorry I have nothing to add to the Xti vs 20D.

However, I just bought my wife the canon SD780 IS as a secondary camera to my DSLR. http://www.amazon.com/Canon-SD780IS-Stabilized-Deep-Red/dp/B001SER48I


Of course it has known noise issues. My question is, would cranking it down from 12MP to 8MP do anything (e.g. reduce noise or other qualitative improvement)?

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JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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2:31p, 5/24/09
If I could honestly find an xsi (or xti which may be possible) for the same price as a 20/30D from a reputable dealer (I don't want to buy sight unseen online from any individual - leaves me with little to no recourse) then I agree and would probably take the xsi/xti.

My problem is that I just BOUGHT an XSI, would like a second camera and don't need the latest and greatest in 2 cameras and they AREN'T the same price point. I don't disagree that the Xsi is a great value - I just bought one for that reason. But sometimes $400-$450 will work and $600 won't, regardless of how universally the additional $150 is considered "worth it".

Right now, the idea of an Xsi kit & 20D for the price those will run me makes more sense than the Xsi kit & an additional Xsi for what THAT will run me.

[This message has been edited by JDCAG (edited 5/24/2009 1:34p).]
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Ag_of_08
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9:38p, 5/24/09
quote:

Either way, it's obvious you haven't compared the specs, and sounds like you haven't used a body with sensor cleaning, or you'd appreciate a feature like that a little more. Sure, it doesn't do the whole job, but it helps a hell of a lot more than nothing at all.


Hmm, I've handled canons entire current line up, sans the original 1d's and the 10d, in some capacity, and not just as a sales clerk. Puffers cost about 5$ max for a decent one.....and do the same thing.

So you're implying you would rather shoot an XSi over a 1d mkii because the LCD is to small and doesn't have live view? Like I said, you have "new model go fever". If you need to chimp that badly, it might be time to step back and reevaluate your technique.

JDC- most people will nudge you an the 20 or 30. I think you'll be happy, and it will give you and your wife a chance to use a more functional camera, and have a smaller, more transportable body.

[This message has been edited by Ag_of_08 (edited 5/24/2009 8:40p).]

[This message has been edited by Ag_of_08 (edited 5/24/2009 8:41p).]
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Little Dobbie
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1:33a, 5/25/09
quote:
Like I said, you have "new model go fever". If you need to chimp that badly, it might be time to step back and reevaluate your technique.

I've seen your work. I wouldn't go around saying things like this, comrade.
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Ag_of_08
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4:00a, 5/25/09
You've seen what, three pictures I've put links up to in this forum? I guarantee you've never seen what I would present as a portfolio, hell I don't think I've posted but two completed photos in the time I've been on TA.

I'll make whatever statements I feel like, especially when the vast majority of opinions of far better and wiser photographers agree with it. You're in the minority on this one, hung up on the idea of newer is better. Sorry, but it's the truth.

I used my LCD to review photos in the field for the first time in months tonight, trying to make sure a shot of a moth didn't have a gnat flying across it.....low and behold my little bitty LCD worked just fine!



[This message has been edited by Ag_of_08 (edited 5/25/2009 3:02a).]
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Dr. Devil Dog
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4:58a, 5/25/09
I'm beginning to think Little Dobbie is a troll as not many people are this obnoxious, even on the internet
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Ag_of_08
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5:01a, 5/25/09
Probably is, wouldn't surprise me to see guitar getting his revenge(I'm kidding, I'm kidding, Guitar is more creative than this....I mean uh )for another troll....
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JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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10:44a, 5/25/09
From just doing other research, the 20D/30D vs. xti/xsi debate seems to be one of personal preference.

I don't think anyone would have a problem with somebody liking any of the above over the rest - I think it just causes trouble when someone says something like "any camera with a 1.8 inch LCD is trash". I've only heard that in one place - here.

Everyone else I've heard from that favors the Xti/Xsi does so because it has newer electronics.

Again, I don't have a problem with either viewpoint - my main issue is that from a reputable dealer, the 20D has a more palatable price and that is a nice thing to me considering I have an Xsi available to me right now.
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Chasing Tail
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10:20p, 5/25/09
Dude, we get it already

quote:
Again, I don't have a problem with either viewpoint - my main issue is that from a reputable dealer, the 20D has a more palatable price and that is a nice thing to me considering I have an Xsi available to me right now.


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JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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10:46p, 5/25/09
Was that not the first time I said it?
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caleblyn
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10:11a, 5/26/09
quote:
I'm beginning to think Little Dobbie is a troll as not many people are this obnoxious, even on the internet



ding ding ding!

I will add though...I own an XSi and it has been great! I have no complaints. However, now that I have better glass in my arsenal and am taking more shots of kids and a lot of indoor stuff, I am really wanting something with a faster FPS and better noise reduction at 800+ iso. The XSi is not very good in this area, not terrible, just not very good.




Hey Mrs.!

[This message has been edited by caleblyn (edited 5/26/2009 9:15a).]
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Oh Four Five
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10:40a, 5/26/09
GS and other experienced photogs, do you have any tips for shooting engagement pictures? A friend of mine wants me to do his, and I've never done anything like it. I'm not much of a portrait photographer, so any help would be appreciated...
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Dr. Devil Dog
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12:30p, 5/26/09
Get on a photo forum like texasphotoforum and check out their wedding section which has plenty of ideas for engagement pictures

Hi, Caleb. I'm in the same boat you're in. I'm looking to upgrade my camera body

[This message has been edited by Mrs. 96CH53 (edited 5/26/2009 11:30a).]
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Guitarsoup
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12:32p, 5/26/09
Engagements kinda suck to shoot, especially if you are dealing with a couple that doesn't particularly like their picture being taken.

Find some great locations, use a large aperture camera, preferably a prime like the 50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 135mm 2.0 and shoot wide open to really separate them from the background. Try lots of stuff. Try serious, smiling, smirking, looking at, looking away, one looking at and one looking away.

The quality of your pics will be a blend of how well you can take pics compositionally and how well your personality can put them at ease.
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caleblyn
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12:34p, 5/26/09
quote:
one looking at and one looking away.


Getting them prepared for marriage ehh?
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JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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1:13p, 5/26/09
To those of you looking to upgrade (if you have a canon) - are you wanting to keep your current camera or sell it - if so, what model do you have?
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Dr. Devil Dog
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8:11p, 5/26/09
I'm keeping my xti, plus I don't live in Texas.

GS,

I think I know what your answer is, but 50D or the Canon EOS 5D 12.8 MP? How much of a difference is there in picture quality? I would prefer to buy the 5D used, that's for sure. Even the used ones, though, are pretty close in pricing to the new. KEH has some used but they don't seem to be as high quality as I would like if I am going to spend that much money.
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JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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8:27p, 5/26/09
quote:
do you have any tips for shooting engagement pictures


I can't speak from the side behind the camera, but my sister in law shot ours and she had some great locations picked out - only problem was that it was a bright day and I squint in anything brighter than a typical room (I have no idea why). Because of this we were sweaty and most of the pictures are of me with my face all mangled cause I'm squinting.

I guess all I'm saying is make sure you take everything into account - a location can be pretty but not necessarily good for the people - especially if there is a tight window (she is out of town so we had basically the middle of a single Saturday, so we couldn't wait for better timing).
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