Being disturbed by the word i use to describe it seems to be nitpicking. So I'll change it, a 30 year reunification scene where he technically isn't there cheaped it to me. If it didn't for you, great. I've been consisttent in this thread that my opinion is my own and i dont care either way about how folks feel about this movie. I've also said on the whole that i was entertained and enjoyed it, in spite of he fact i thought they screwed up a lot of it.

Been listening to TLJ score this past week, and man, makes me really want to see Poe go HAM on that dreadnaught and the throne room scene on the big screen again!

I think this movie geniunely meant for her to be a nobody - Kylo was telling the truth. But given they are making this **** up along the way and the next movie is free to erase what this one did, who knows if it stays that way.

Ags4DaWin said:

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VanZandt92 said:

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Beat40 said:

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I feel like you are one of the few who have the opinion that TLJ rehashes an OT film.

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Luke is bitter and in hiding like Obi Wan. There's a start.

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Wrong. Obi wan is not bitter. Not one bit. Dejected and thoughtful but there is nowhere near the anger in him you see in Luke in TLJ.

My biggest problem with TLJ was that instead of giving the fans a nugget or two here and there, especially in regards to Luke who we not only waited 30 years to see again but also waited through TFA to see again on screen we got 1) green milk (a *******ization of blue milk from ANH)
2) Luke tossing the lightsaber away
3) Luke not actually dueling because he was a projection
4) angry emo Luke with minimal context as to why he went from perpetually optimistic to emo
5) Luke willing to consider murdering a teenage boy
6) Luke with 0 balls emasculated so that Rey the woman can be the hero

All 6 of these things are the complete opposite of the Luke character. And yeah this movie is 30 years after ROTJ

but everyone watching TLJ knows Luke's story arch from the OT. And the Luke in TLJ is a completely different person. You can't do a complete 180 on the character with no context into how that 180 happened and expect an audience to like it or even believe it.

Furthermore like with the blue milk/nasty green milk and lightsaber examples there were multiple instances where Rian Johnson took a trope from the OT, *******ized it and appeared to use it to thumb his nose at the fans.

Okay. I get it. He wanted to make his own movie and not a homage to ESB. Fine. But there were still things that he could have done to satisfy the die hard fans, the ones who spent two decades reading the EU materials and wanting to see a fully powered Luke do some serious damage with either a lightsaber or the force.

There were some interesting characters from the EU we could have seen-Mara jade, talon Karrde, thrawn, daala.....

We got no context for any of the backstory alluded to in TFA. Rey's parentage was downplayed as if the two dozen Easter eggs in TFA had never been dropped. Luke went to great lengths to create a puzzle map that the entire plot of TFA REVOLVED AROUND and TLJ was written to say...yeah that entire plot? Not so important because we are going to cut Luke's balls off in this movie without so much as a why. So all that energy and emotional investment as an audience u put into that plot line? Yeah. That was for nothing. Too bad. Suck it. And like it. Also, we are going to add an entire secondary plot to THIS movie which will fail to further develop any characters or move the plot of the movie forward. It will just give us an excuse to pontificate on SJW type issues.

Sooooo yeah. Rian Johnson pretty much spent his movie using the platform to thumb his nose at the OT fans and flip the bird to those of us who enjoyed TFA and wanted to see how those plots tied into the mythos. All while taking 2.5 hours to not only kill but tarnish and destroy on a moral level one of the purest childhood superheroes we grew up with.

So that is why TLJ sucked.

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I kind of get this, and agree it would have been awesome to see Luke go vintage bad ass Jedi master, but I am cool with what they did. Luke already had his heyday and ep 7 through 9 arent supposed to be about him.

However at the end of ep 8 it was Luke Skywalker the kids were pretending to be. So Lukes legend lives on, and like his force projection told Kylo, the war is just beginning, so even though they made his character something we weren't expecting, they are at least letting his legend be the spark that triggers the final rebellion.

Ags4DaWin said:

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VanZandt92 said:

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Beat40 said:

---

I feel like you are one of the few who have the opinion that TLJ rehashes an OT film.

---

Luke is bitter and in hiding like Obi Wan. There's a start.

---

Wrong. Obi wan is not bitter. Not one bit. Dejected and thoughtful but there is nowhere near the anger in him you see in Luke in TLJ.

My biggest problem with TLJ was that instead of giving the fans a nugget or two here and there, especially in regards to Luke who we not only waited 30 years to see again but also waited through TFA to see again on screen we got 1) green milk (a *******ization of blue milk from ANH)
2) Luke tossing the lightsaber away
3) Luke not actually dueling because he was a projection
4) angry emo Luke with minimal context as to why he went from perpetually optimistic to emo
5) Luke willing to consider murdering a teenage boy
6) Luke with 0 balls emasculated so that Rey the woman can be the hero

All 6 of these things are the complete opposite of the Luke character. And yeah this movie is 30 years after ROTJ

but everyone watching TLJ knows Luke's story arch from the OT. And the Luke in TLJ is a completely different person. You can't do a complete 180 on the character with no context into how that 180 happened and expect an audience to like it or even believe it.

Furthermore like with the blue milk/nasty green milk and lightsaber examples there were multiple instances where Rian Johnson took a trope from the OT, *******ized it and appeared to use it to thumb his nose at the fans.

Okay. I get it. He wanted to make his own movie and not a homage to ESB. Fine. But there were still things that he could have done to satisfy the die hard fans, the ones who spent two decades reading the EU materials and wanting to see a fully powered Luke do some serious damage with either a lightsaber or the force.

There were some interesting characters from the EU we could have seen-Mara jade, talon Karrde, thrawn, daala.....

We got no context for any of the backstory alluded to in TFA. Rey's parentage was downplayed as if the two dozen Easter eggs in TFA had never been dropped. Luke went to great lengths to create a puzzle map that the entire plot of TFA REVOLVED AROUND and TLJ was written to say...yeah that entire plot? Not so important because we are going to cut Luke's balls off in this movie without so much as a why. So all that energy and emotional investment as an audience u put into that plot line? Yeah. That was for nothing. Too bad. Suck it. And like it. Also, we are going to add an entire secondary plot to THIS movie which will fail to further develop any characters or move the plot of the movie forward. It will just give us an excuse to pontificate on SJW type issues.

Sooooo yeah. Rian Johnson pretty much spent his movie using the platform to thumb his nose at the OT fans and flip the bird to those of us who enjoyed TFA and wanted to see how those plots tied into the mythos. All while taking 2.5 hours to not only kill but tarnish and destroy on a moral level one of the purest childhood superheroes we grew up with.

So that is why TLJ sucked.

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Re-Post this fifty more times so I can give you fifty more blue stars.

I enjoyed TLJ's treatment of Luke more than most on here. Thought the hermit story line was very believable and logical. Heck, I didn't even have a problem with him coming close to killing Ren back in the day, nor did the Achto milk animal thing ruin the depiction at all.

I remembered Luke as an extremely conflicted guy from the OT, so him wanting to shut off from the Galaxy/force and live on his own wasn't illogical.

The Yoda on Degobah stuff kind of sets up the Star Wars universe as not the most picturesque, especially if you're living away from civilization a la Luke on Achto.

Chipotlemonger said:

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I enjoyed TLJ's treatment of Luke more than most on here. Thought the hermit story line was very believable and logical. Heck, I didn't even have a problem with him coming close to killing Ren back in the day, nor did the Achto milk animal thing ruin the depiction at all.

I remembered Luke as an extremely conflicted guy from the OT, so him wanting to shut off from the Galaxy/force and live on his own wasn't illogical.

The Yoda on Degobah stuff kind of sets up the Star Wars universe as not the most picturesque, especially if you're living away from civilization a la Luke on Achto.

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Yep!

To me, Luke was never a 'perfect hero'. That's one of the reasons why he was so relatable, because he wasn't some infallible demigod, he was a human that struggled with right and wrong, and he later struggled with having incredible powers, and how to use them for the right reasons.

I also saw/see him (like I've said before on this thread), in a Davy Crockett or Jim Bowie type of 'hero in his own lifetime'. As such, he can never live up to what people already think he is in their minds... like how most of the detractors of him in this movie seem to feel about him. You're placing too much on his shoulders. He was nothing more than a human being. I can imagine such a burden might drive someone into solitude, so they could avoid the unpleasant experience of letting people down by simply being who they are...

Been thinking more about it and actually think Lukes force projection interaction with Kylo was pretty bad ass.

He repeated his "amazing, everything you just said was wrong" line that he had used previously on his new pupil Rey (and makes me think he had probably used it on Kylo before when training him the 1st go round).

He also made sure to remind Kylo that Han would always be with him.

And at the very end, he dropped a "see you around kid" on him which was totally something Han would have said.

So in that last scene with Kylo, Luke (1) single-handedly allowed the few remaining vestiges of the resistance to escape certain death, (2) reminded Kylo that Luke was still his superior, (3) avenged Han's death and paid homage to his friend, and (4) set up the new generation of good guys -- the rebellion is reborn (Poe), the war is just beginning (Fin), and there is another Jedi coming (Rey).

Not so bad. I understand the complaints about Lukes portrayal in TLJ and he was my hero as a kid, too, so it was tough watching him toss his light saber and emote about how he failed and how the Jedi were failures, but without making him go all Jedi master light saber warrior on the First Order, they did a pretty good job of redeeming him.

unmade bed said:

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Been thinking more about it and actually think Lukes force projection interaction with Kylo was pretty bad ass.

He repeated his "amazing, everything you just said was wrong" line that he had used previously on his new pupil Rey (and makes me think he had probably used it on Kylo before when training him the 1st go round).

He also made sure to remind Kylo that Han would always be with him.

And at the very end, he dropped a "see you around kid" on him which was totally something Han would have said.

So in that last scene with Kylo, Luke (1) single-handedly allowed the few remaining vestiges of the resistance to escape certain death, (2) reminded Kylo that Luke was still his superior, (3) avenged Han's death and paid homage to his friend, and (4) set up the new generation of good guys -- the rebellion is reborn (Poe), the war is just beginning (Fin), and there is another Jedi coming (Rey).

Not so bad. I understand the complaints about Lukes portrayal in TLJ and he was my hero as a kid, too, so it was tough watching him toss his light saber and emote about how he failed and how the Jedi were failures, but without making him go all Jedi master light saber warrior on the First Order, they did a pretty good job of redeeming him.

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amazing, everything you just said was right

TFA really celebrated Han Solo, while introducing us to the new heroes. The Last Jedi made some dislike Luke, or at the least, dislike his attitude on things. That is a travesty.

List of loose-ends not followed-up on between TFA and TLJ:

• Kylo Ren to Lor San Tekka:

"Look how old you've become." (This implies Kylo knew Lor San Tekka in the past.)

• Rey to BB8:

"Waiting. For my family. They'll be back. One day. Come on."

• This exchange:

KYLO REN
"Anything Else?"
LIEUTENANT
"The two were accompanied by a girl."
Ren reaches out -- Mitaka is suddenly, violently PULLED REN, into his black hand.
KYLO REN
"What girl?"

(Implying there might be a reason why a just "a girl" might be a person of interest to Kylo)

• Maz to Han

"So, who's the girl?"

• Snoke to Kylo:

" Even you, master of the Knights of Ren, have never faced such a test."

Probably a lot more than these.

Blatant Disregard said:

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List of loose-ends not followed-up on between TFA and TLJ:

• Kylo Ren to Lor San Tekka:

"Look how old you've become." (This implies Kylo knew Lor San Tekka in the past.)

• Rey to BB8:

"Waiting. For my family. They'll be back. One day. Come on."

• This exchange:

KYLO REN
"Anything Else?"
LIEUTENANT
"The two were accompanied by a girl."
Ren reaches out -- Mitaka is suddenly, violently PULLED REN, into his black hand.
KYLO REN
"What girl?"

(Implying there might be a reason why a just "a girl" might be a person of interest to Kylo)

• Maz to Han

"So, who's the girl?"

• Snoke to Kylo:

" Even you, master of the Knights of Ren, have never faced such a test."

Probably a lot more than these.

---

More:

The flash back scenes from when Rey touches the lightsaber. None are touched on or elaborated on, not even the ones we haven't seen before.

Rey's flashback of being left on Jakku.

Why doesn't Rey remember anything prior to being dropped off on Jakku?

Finn's hologram when Phasma talks about him combined with the mind wiping: The mind wiping was never addressed/why necessary/how it effects the people/etc....Finn's only memories in TFA were of his life with the first order.

Why Phasma hates Finn. There seems to be more of a history there than Finn's treason in the TFA. Phasma seems to have a visceral hatred for him even before he rescues Poe unexplained by his actions.

How Max got the lightsaber

Who the **** the Knights of Ren are.

No more information on the church of the force and why they were on Jakku. We're supposed to just believe that out of all the planets in the galaxy, Rey, the Falcon, and the Church of the Force all end up on the same desert useless POS planet?

Why Luke left a map to find him? If he went there to die, WTF leave a map to find him?

Why Artoo came back online after going to sleep, if Luke didn't want people to find him?

How Snoke got his hooks into Kylo in the first place: leia to Han in TFA "There was nothing you could have done. Snoke had already influenced him too much before we sent him to Luke".

How Snoke became Supreme Leader...who he is, how he came to power....anything at all about him and The First Order

Why the hell the Republic didn't build up their own army in the wake of the rise of TFO

How Leia got pushed out of the government of the Republic. She's the leader of the Resistance, Which is not an official arm of the Republic.

All of these are important plot points brought up in TFA and never touched in TLJ because Rian Johnson was too preoccupied with the evils of horse racing and casinos and greeen milk. How are we supposed to buy into the changes of the original characters, or the new characters and become emotionally invested in the plot as it stands now if we don't know ANYTHING about how the characters we already know got from point A to Point B.

A lot of your questions are answered in the books.
If you really want to know, and aren't just complaining to complain...

You guys know there's another movie, right?

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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You guys know there's another movie, right?

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This.

Also, wasn't the Leia/Resistance movement described in the intro scroll in TFA?

Sounds like just a bunch of complaining. If this person had watched ANH, they would complain about not knowing everything with the story! I am beginning to agree with that video posted a while back on here about how it's just impossible to please everyone. As others have said, these are the MOST analyzed movies being released!

Reading all of this thread, I feel like TLJ is destined to take its place alongside TPM as the most disliked of all the Star Wars movies.

But I'm not going to re-hash any of that, other than to say that I consider all of these movies to be at the very least enjoyable movies, and three of them to be among the all-time greats of all movies.

Regardless, I think there is one thing that haters of the prequels or haters of the sequels, as well as those who consider the OT to be the best thing ever, can all agree:

the one person who has consistently generated superior Star Wars work ...

John Williams.

The man has never written a bad note of music for any of these movies. The score for TLJ is truly incredible, with some new themes coming into play. I actually liken it somewhat to his work on TESB in terms of how he introduced these new themes and wove them into existing musical cues. I can rank the movies pretty easily, but aside from calling TESB his best score, I am hard-pressed to rank his scores for these 8 movies.

Jump in the wayback time machine....we are going back to 1980 just after ESB is released.......


here are the Texags reactions to ESB circa 1980:


1. OMG wtf.....are we supposed to believe Vader that he is Luke's father...there has been nothing to suggest that and he just throws it out there. I refuse to believe that until we are shown some flashback or other proof.

2. Luke what the hell he leaves training with Yoda after only a couple of days and we are supposed to believe this farm boy is nearly as powerful as the all evil all powerful vader...i mean he was hanging in there with him in one on one combat. Seems like a reach.

3. Ugh....SW was all about this group working together...now we have Luke over there on some swamp planet, Han and Leia elsewhere...I don't like it.

4 who the hell is this emperor and why did we not see him in SW if he was the master strong puller all along. I need to know his entire backstory otherwise it is just meaningless. Ugh. they better completely flesh out how he came to power, how he mentored vader, etc. in the third movie or he is just a waste of a character.

5. Same with Lando all we get is some half assed comment about him being a smuggler...I need to know his entire character story and how it relates to Han or I just can't buy his character. And for that matter....why does the only black guy have to be the traitor????? racist much????

6. By the end of the movie this is just a completely ragtag group, they can't have any hope of really defeating the empire. they hardly have any equipment, everyone is getting killed and we can't just have another death star weapon and some miracle plan to destroy it by some plot weakness...I'm not gonna buy it if that happens again.

7. what was with that stupid meteor worm monster...what a distraction and sideshow. it served no purpose at all. and for that matter there is a lot of unnecessary animal/creature abuse - the TaunTauns are forced to serve in the face of death and the Wampa had his arm cut off when Luke could have simply scared him off.

"That's Gold, Jerry! Gold I tell you!"

Let's be honest, if you put TLJ on the same level as Ep 1&2, your opinion on movies is forever null and void.

Saul Goodman said:

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Let's be honest, if you put TLJ on the same level as Ep 1&2, your opinion on movies is forever null and void.

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I don't.

I don't really get the unbridled hate for it. There were bad parts that were just bad. But, the great parts were really outstanding. I'm just really tired of reading the hate.