Appreciate both of your posts. Watching the National Championship but feeling strong, it's been over ten years since I've watched one without a drink

I found out a lot of people go to a bar to solve life's issues by getting drunk, its not the talking about them its just complaining to complain. The next day its the same thing, then the next, then the next. I have no problems going to a bar, whether I am drinking or not, to hang out with true friends and have a normal conversation. But I did find out the "normals" at bars don't have their life together and its almost suffering with company.

Coworkers used to ask over and over why I wasn't drinking and now they just ask if I have something coming up. They know I am active outside of work and are just interested what I have going on.

Having a supportive significant other helps a ton too. Most of the time its me telling her if they want to see us we are not going to a bar but we can do something like game night. Everyone has more fun that way drinking or not

Congrats

(Posting this from an obvious burner simply to not have anyone that might know my friend group on my normal username make a connection to whom I'm talking about.).

Looking for some advice on the best steps to take to get a friend help. Long story short, he worked in the industry for about 10 years with his wife, and she died tragically due in large part to a dependence issue. He has a daughter he is raising himself and he's done a damn good job, but there very telltale signs under the surface that another close friend and I are trying to keep eyes on to get him the help he needs. He's previously been to rehab (finally was convinced when he started having withdrawal tremors), but has since fallen back into drinking heavily (but hiding it as best he can). We're seeing the telltale signs of not just the hiding of the drinking, but we know some of the tremors have returned and I've seen very obvious self-destructive actions -- he is seemingly going after women who are not only married but people we all know socially. He's one of my closest friends, but I rarely see him because lunch and dinner invites get declined, and I believe he has simply become a barfly at a spot near where he lives.

All that being said, he has a very strong personality that is not going to respond well to any kind of intervention. In addition to that, he's back working in the alcohol industry so any kind of sobriety will also likely come along with him having to find new employment.

For those who have dealt with this from either side of the table - can you give some advice on how best to crack the door open to getting him the help he needs?

By you username, I am guessing you (and him) are in the DFW area. This is going to be AA themed, as well, that IS the title of the thread. There are a couple hundred AA groups in the area, so that is good news that one should be relatively close.

You said he has already been to rehab once so he has at least once listened to the concept he might need help. A lot of people (including myself) have gone to rehab to get the heat off, so it might not be a complete admission of a problem. Try whatever approach worked that time to get his attention.

There are many routes to sobriety. Is your friend open to see a therapist, which can cost a lot of money, and who will likely help then recommend AA? Would he be open to rehab again? Did he try AA after his first rehab stint? That road will also lead to AA if he navigates rehab successfully. Or he can just start in AA, probably as early as this evening.. AA is not the only answer, but it's inexpensive and easy to try and requires no commitment like a therapist or rehab.

I have known a few people in the alcohol industry that have gotten sober and stayed sober. It probably isn't the ideal environment, but it can be done. If he does get sober, it will probably also open up a few doors for finding new employment. Sobriety tends to bring about new opportunities. At least, that is my experience.

If your guy wants to talk to someone about going to a meeting, email me at dfwphilstone12 at g mail.

Thank you very much for the reply.

I may have mis-spoke when I said he has been rehab. I know he went to detox when he had the tremors (and ultimately a seizure) due to the withdrawals. I think I assumed that also incorporated some sort of rehab since he quit drinking for a while after that, but it may not have.

From talking to his eldest brother (someone I know he looks up to), he is blaming the numerous incidents we have all seen on anxiety, depression and those causing him to only be getting a few hours of sleep every night. While I imagine that is *also* true, I think it's just avoidance of blaming any of it on alcohol.

I think he would be open to seeing a therapist - him and his daughter had been going to a grief counseling place since the wife/mother passed and it was something they were making it to every single week and both getting a lot out of it. But as of last week I saw per social media that it would be their last day and I suspect the daughter has said she feels comfortable not needing it every week and I'm afraid he's going to lose that outlet.

Amen to everything Clubs had to say. The man knows his stuff. I feel for your situation, as it's very hard and very sad to want recovery for someone more than they want it for themselves. All the doctors, therapists, physiatrists, counselors, and AA meetings in the world will do little, if any good until the individual wants to do something about his or her drinking.

Again can't thank you guys enough for the insight.

My other friend and I asked him about it directly, and he acknowledged he knows the alcohol is a problem but does not want to go to treatment because he does not want his daughter finding out and thinks he can kick it on his own.

Going to take him to lunch and try and talk some sense into him that if it's a problem that has crippled the strongest people in the world that to think he can just handle it on his own is just idiotic. I've been through some of the depression feelings he's had before so hoping I can allow him to see that what he's going through sucks but it's nothing to be embarrassed about and demons that many others face he just doesn't see it.

Much of it is just trying to find him some purpose. He's in his early 40's and basically had to start over with his career (and if he chooses to really handle sobriety like he should, he will have to start over again outside the alcohol industry). His wife and him were a perfect match, but she went down the opioid path and never returned. He's not interested in seriously dating until his daughter is out of high school (4 more years). He's not religious at all. He seems somewhat resigned to simply fighting through the next 4 years to get his daughter out of the house then "letting go" and embracing his alcoholism and I'm trying to find a way to inspire him to find a purpose.

Everyone is different, years ago when I was having problems I went to AA and it really didn't do much for me. What helped me was finding a good church and going to God.

I will say going at addiction alone is the worst way to go. One reason AA works is you have a group and a sponsor to help you, most churches have groups or a person you can work with, or just open up to a close friend.

As a son of an alcoholic I would much rather my dad reaching out for help instead continuing down the path he was on. The situation kept getting out of control and I no longer speak with him, think last time I did was a decade ago. Don't let your friend get to that point, alcohol isn't worth losing family or friends over

Also had to choke out one of my friends recently since he was wasted and being very handsy to people that weren't his wife. Put him outside and got him an Uber. Found out that he has had 2-3 DWIs and he needs help, has a 10 year old kid he needs to be an example for.

Again, thanks for everyone's help and advice, it has helped tremendously.

He drove himself to the ER yesterday because of tremors and because he felt another seizure coming on, so I spent most of the day yesterday there with him (despite his objections). He was 3.5x the legal limit by 11am. It was a long day where he'd shift from being embarrassed and acknowledging this is costing him friends and will eventually kill him, to then still sometimes "defending" the alcohol and saying the situation is mostly because of the depression and anxiety and just that the "alcohol isn't helping". Doesn't seem to want to fully acknowledge that its a depression, anxiety AND alcohol problem.

We got him into a nice detox facility late last night (as doctor said he would absolutely go into withdrawals that night but until that actually happened the hospital couldn't do anything), but it's voluntary and can be for 3 days to as long as 30 so I have little doubt he's going to decide after the actual detox is done (through the weekend at best), that he's good to go and will depart.

The plan now is to coordinate with his eldest brother (who is overseas but still communicates with him somewhat regularly) to be the one that tries to break through to him about getting sobriety help since he is someone that he looks up to.

I'm not optimistic, as he's hard-headed and will either A) convince himself the alcohol really isn't the issue or B) convince himself he can control it himself... but not sure what else we can really do at this point but I guess that's a pretty common thing.

Again want to thank everyone for the suggestions, they've helped me guide how I talk to him and made it a bit easier on me to know the right things to say.

P.U.T.U said:

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dfwag58 said:

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Again, thanks for everyone's help and advice, it has helped tremendously.

He drove himself to the ER yesterday because of tremors and because he felt another seizure coming on, so I spent most of the day yesterday there with him (despite his objections). He was 3.5x the legal limit by 11am. It was a long day where he'd shift from being embarrassed and acknowledging this is costing him friends and will eventually kill him, to then still sometimes "defending" the alcohol and saying the situation is mostly because of the depression and anxiety and just that the "alcohol isn't helping". Doesn't seem to want to fully acknowledge that its a depression, anxiety AND alcohol problem.

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The bolded parts show he needs help now, he is lucky he didn't kill someone and that is like finishing a fifth by 11am. How can you take care of a kid in that state? Sounds like he needs some tough love.

And agree he needs more than a detox, he needs some therapy as well

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Agreed on the tough love. I've gone down that road a few times on essentially telling him what he is doing to his daughter/family/others, but I often pull back because he is someone who is also depressed and saying he doesn't want to kill himself but doesn't care if he dies. So I'm trying to navigate the "you are putting your daughter's life at risk" while not opening the thought in his head that things would be safer for his daughter if he wasn't around.

It's difficult for me to play the "you owe it to her" and "this is a burden that you have to bear" cards while at the same time seeing how broken he is himself. Even the detox when he started talking about how if he feels like he's not getting anything out of it he's not going to stay and I had to hold my tongue not to say "I'm paying $6k to try and get you clean maybe you can stop being so self-centered for once?".

P.U.T.U said:

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...that is like finishing a fifth by 11am.

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As one who is not an alcoholic (but has family that is, so I read this thread) I am amazed by the volumes I hear about.

One family member confided to me that before AA, he consumed a 1.75 by himself everyday. He was one of those guys lined up outside the liquor store when they opened to get his daily 1.75 L.

60 oz of whiskey everyday is hard to fathom to a lightweight like me.

dfwag58 said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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dfwag58 said:

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Again, thanks for everyone's help and advice, it has helped tremendously.

He drove himself to the ER yesterday because of tremors and because he felt another seizure coming on, so I spent most of the day yesterday there with him (despite his objections). He was 3.5x the legal limit by 11am. It was a long day where he'd shift from being embarrassed and acknowledging this is costing him friends and will eventually kill him, to then still sometimes "defending" the alcohol and saying the situation is mostly because of the depression and anxiety and just that the "alcohol isn't helping". Doesn't seem to want to fully acknowledge that its a depression, anxiety AND alcohol problem.

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The bolded parts show he needs help now, he is lucky he didn't kill someone and that is like finishing a fifth by 11am. How can you take care of a kid in that state? Sounds like he needs some tough love.

And agree he needs more than a detox, he needs some therapy as well

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Agreed on the tough love. I've gone down that road a few times on essentially telling him what he is doing to his daughter/family/others, but I often pull back because he is someone who is also depressed and saying he doesn't want to kill himself but doesn't care if he dies. So I'm trying to navigate the "you are putting your daughter's life at risk" while not opening the thought in his head that things would be safer for his daughter if he wasn't around.

It's difficult for me to play the "you owe it to her" and "this is a burden that you have to bear" cards while at the same time seeing how broken he is himself. Even the detox when he started talking about how if he feels like he's not getting anything out of it he's not going to stay and I had to hold my tongue not to say "I'm paying $6k to try and get you clean maybe you can stop being so self-centered for once?".

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This story sounds quite a bit like mine. Couldn't take off work to go to rehab.

I hired a professional councilor to get me through detox. She got me defogged and taught me many practical skills that I still use today. I couldn't have done it without her. In retrospect rehab would have been easier.

https://www.ogacounselingcenter.com/

Started going to AA meetings after the detox. Gave me an entirely new perspective on life.

Keep trying to help your friend. My wife and I were trying to help one of her coworkers. She went to rehab 3 times and failed. Hated AA. She died 2 weeks ago from an OD. Left behind 2 young kids.

Editing to remove my previous post now that I have more information.

aggiejim70 said:

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Overlooked in all the excitement of the past week was your humble servant marking a third of a century of sobriety. Wanted to use this occasion to remind everyone there's not enough whisky in the whole world to solve the problems of Texas Aggie sports.

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Way to go Jim!

How long does it take your mind to recover? Does it? I can tell years of abuse have caused stultification and it's getting worse.

Callate Donnie said:

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How long does it take your mind to recover? Does it? I can tell years of abuse have caused stultification and it's getting worse.

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I'm not sure how to answer your question. Through the application of the 12 steps of AA your attitude towards
booze and life in general can and will change. However, if you have physical or mental problems as the result of prolonged drinking, those need to be addressed by the medical community,

Appreciate all the advice given. My friend got out of detox about 45 days ago.. was wanting to leave early after the "mandatory" few days, but a bit of a guilt trip got him to stay the entire time and he said he was able to talk to some people there and got a lot out of it.

Unfortunately he has slipped this past week, with significant depression leading him to binge drink and the cycle has started back up. Monday we were trying to get him out of his apartment where he was saying he wanted to die (not wanted to kill himself, just wanted to die... which I think is notable when it comes to stuff like this). Got him to the hospital and got him some meds and he's been lucky enough to have a licensed therapist he knew from college willing to stay the night with him the last few nights while he's been "detoxxing".

He's embarrassed and trying to avoid any help from his brother or me, but seems willing to accept it from her (the therapist)... but she obviously can't babysit him 24/7.

He's still hard-headed and denying certain aspects of his problems... He knows he's depressed, but is very against any kind of mind-altering medications (he was always like that, but his wife getting hooked and eventually dying from opioids has pushed him even further into the "no drugs" realm). He still views the alcohol abuse as a result of his depression, not an addiction in itself. It's crazy how some people can refuse to see what is obvious to everyone.

I've talked to the therapist about things, but what steps can *I* help him with when she finally departs? I can't hold his hand, and I can't go with him to therapy. We're middle aged guys so me texting him "hey how are you feeling?" and the like is met with the natural "I don't need people checking in on me"... So what can I do? I lost someone close to me to suicide about 15 years ago and while I know there's nothing I could have done, the questions of if I did everything I could do still haunt me a bit. I am very much the type of person that can live mentally with a result as long as I did everything in my power, so I'm trying to determine what those things are.

The plan for now is to get him referred to a therapist and then hopefully get him into an alcohol program (though that may take the therapist saying its necessary as he often doesn't want to hear it from us). I know with AA they have sponsors that help keep you accountable -- how does one get someone like that for mental health / depression since I can't be that person?

Do I get him setup with a therapist and then simply check in on him periodically to see how he's doing - even if that is met with the normal male-i-dont-need-to-be-babysit disdain? What about the risk of having him shut me off completely because of this babysitting?

Do I force the tough love and tell him that while it sucks that life isn't fun for him anymore and everyday is a battle, he has a daughter and that is the only reason he needs to keep on fighting, and that to leave her with both parents dead is the most selfish thing he could ever do? Does that hit too hard, or is that something people need to hear? He's at that stage where he's lying to himself saying she'd probably be better off without him around.

I appreciate all of the insight everyone has given.