Appreciate both of your posts. Watching the National Championship but feeling strong, it's been over ten years since I've watched one without a drink

MROD92 said:

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Thank you for your candor, it does.

A little background on me, I was a T totaler until mid 30's, same with all my extended family. Then, I meet my now wife's family. For them, every day is a frat party, EVERY SINGLE DAY. Including funerals (at the burial site, not a reception) in the stands at high school football games, well, everywhere. They place TONS of peer pressure on anyone that does not participate, they live this way every day. It's a difficult conversation, but I guess one I may have to have with my wife saying I cannot be around that. Appreciate the help BTW I'm mid fifties now so this is a 20 year ordeal and my new found sobriety is more recent

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I was amazed at the number of heavy drinkers in my life that fully supported my sobriety. Not what I anticipated at all. I was in a horrific state, and my friends like this version of me much better.

Other friendships passed by the wayside, in a very natural way without much drama. The roots were obviously shallow, and it just withered away.

I understand that family is different than friends, and I have several alcoholic family members. Somehow God has protected me, and I remain sober. He just seems to set me up for victory.

I have some social functions that I refuse to attend and my wife understands that I may change my mind at the last minute and not go. I might arrive late and leave early. They are few and far between and it has more to do with me and my mental state, than it has to do with them.

I found out a lot of people go to a bar to solve life's issues by getting drunk, its not the talking about them its just complaining to complain. The next day its the same thing, then the next, then the next. I have no problems going to a bar, whether I am drinking or not, to hang out with true friends and have a normal conversation. But I did find out the "normals" at bars don't have their life together and its almost suffering with company.

Coworkers used to ask over and over why I wasn't drinking and now they just ask if I have something coming up. They know I am active outside of work and are just interested what I have going on.

Having a supportive significant other helps a ton too. Most of the time its me telling her if they want to see us we are not going to a bar but we can do something like game night. Everyone has more fun that way drinking or not

Congrats

(Posting this from an obvious burner simply to not have anyone that might know my friend group on my normal username make a connection to whom I'm talking about.).

Looking for some advice on the best steps to take to get a friend help. Long story short, he worked in the industry for about 10 years with his wife, and she died tragically due in large part to a dependence issue. He has a daughter he is raising himself and he's done a damn good job, but there very telltale signs under the surface that another close friend and I are trying to keep eyes on to get him the help he needs. He's previously been to rehab (finally was convinced when he started having withdrawal tremors), but has since fallen back into drinking heavily (but hiding it as best he can). We're seeing the telltale signs of not just the hiding of the drinking, but we know some of the tremors have returned and I've seen very obvious self-destructive actions -- he is seemingly going after women who are not only married but people we all know socially. He's one of my closest friends, but I rarely see him because lunch and dinner invites get declined, and I believe he has simply become a barfly at a spot near where he lives.

All that being said, he has a very strong personality that is not going to respond well to any kind of intervention. In addition to that, he's back working in the alcohol industry so any kind of sobriety will also likely come along with him having to find new employment.

For those who have dealt with this from either side of the table - can you give some advice on how best to crack the door open to getting him the help he needs?

By you username, I am guessing you (and him) are in the DFW area. This is going to be AA themed, as well, that IS the title of the thread. There are a couple hundred AA groups in the area, so that is good news that one should be relatively close.

You said he has already been to rehab once so he has at least once listened to the concept he might need help. A lot of people (including myself) have gone to rehab to get the heat off, so it might not be a complete admission of a problem. Try whatever approach worked that time to get his attention.

There are many routes to sobriety. Is your friend open to see a therapist, which can cost a lot of money, and who will likely help then recommend AA? Would he be open to rehab again? Did he try AA after his first rehab stint? That road will also lead to AA if he navigates rehab successfully. Or he can just start in AA, probably as early as this evening.. AA is not the only answer, but it's inexpensive and easy to try and requires no commitment like a therapist or rehab.

I have known a few people in the alcohol industry that have gotten sober and stayed sober. It probably isn't the ideal environment, but it can be done. If he does get sober, it will probably also open up a few doors for finding new employment. Sobriety tends to bring about new opportunities. At least, that is my experience.

If your guy wants to talk to someone about going to a meeting, email me at dfwphilstone12 at g mail.

Thank you very much for the reply.

I may have mis-spoke when I said he has been rehab. I know he went to detox when he had the tremors (and ultimately a seizure) due to the withdrawals. I think I assumed that also incorporated some sort of rehab since he quit drinking for a while after that, but it may not have.

From talking to his eldest brother (someone I know he looks up to), he is blaming the numerous incidents we have all seen on anxiety, depression and those causing him to only be getting a few hours of sleep every night. While I imagine that is *also* true, I think it's just avoidance of blaming any of it on alcohol.

I think he would be open to seeing a therapist - him and his daughter had been going to a grief counseling place since the wife/mother passed and it was something they were making it to every single week and both getting a lot out of it. But as of last week I saw per social media that it would be their last day and I suspect the daughter has said she feels comfortable not needing it every week and I'm afraid he's going to lose that outlet.

Amen to everything Clubs had to say. The man knows his stuff. I feel for your situation, as it's very hard and very sad to want recovery for someone more than they want it for themselves. All the doctors, therapists, physiatrists, counselors, and AA meetings in the world will do little, if any good until the individual wants to do something about his or her drinking.

Going to detox and not rehab is common. I have done that more than once.

Interesting that he has been going to a therapist and the alcohol problem has not been picked up on. I guess all the focus was on the grief. Therapy is not perfect. You would likely have to convince him to go to an addiction counselor. They will provide help and suggest maybe inpatient, outpatient or 12 Step based program. If he is the primary caregiver for his child then he will likely resist that because of the time. He has to realize the amount of time he spends drinking is far more than a one hour AA meeting. Sounds simple yet the concept has surprised many an alcoholic, including this one.

If he blaming his heavy drinking and acting out on anxiety and depression he is in for some bad news. Heavy drinking or alcoholic drinking causes / makes those worse, not better. Also, alcohol really disrupts sleep patterns. The overuse of the depressant (alcohol) causes the body to want to *wake up" thus resulting in any sleep not being restful. I remember just being exhausted for months on end. It's a vicious cycle.

But, as Jim said, he has to want to get sober. Until then, there isn't much other people can do, especially family and close friends. It usually has to come from the outside.

Again can't thank you guys enough for the insight.

My other friend and I asked him about it directly, and he acknowledged he knows the alcohol is a problem but does not want to go to treatment because he does not want his daughter finding out and thinks he can kick it on his own.

Going to take him to lunch and try and talk some sense into him that if it's a problem that has crippled the strongest people in the world that to think he can just handle it on his own is just idiotic. I've been through some of the depression feelings he's had before so hoping I can allow him to see that what he's going through sucks but it's nothing to be embarrassed about and demons that many others face he just doesn't see it.

Much of it is just trying to find him some purpose. He's in his early 40's and basically had to start over with his career (and if he chooses to really handle sobriety like he should, he will have to start over again outside the alcohol industry). His wife and him were a perfect match, but she went down the opioid path and never returned. He's not interested in seriously dating until his daughter is out of high school (4 more years). He's not religious at all. He seems somewhat resigned to simply fighting through the next 4 years to get his daughter out of the house then "letting go" and embracing his alcoholism and I'm trying to find a way to inspire him to find a purpose.

That will be a miserable 4 years.

It can be kicked on it's own, but I believe it is much easier and has a higher chance of success with the help of others and a program. I see people show up at meetings from time to time that have been white knuckling it with sobriety for 6 months or a year or whatever, and they are amazed at how much their life improves over just doing it on their own by having the support provided in AA. I have also seen countless sons and daughters thrilled with their parent's involvement in AA because their parents are now present in their lives for real. The daughter already knows anyway, especially if she lost her mother to addiction. The secret that no alcoholic knows is the everyone else already knows they have a problem.

You said he isn't religious, and he may or may not know already that AA is a spiritual program. He will hear God mentioned and meetings usually start with the Serenity Prayer and many times close with the Lord's Prayer. However, there is no "religious requirement". I am just telling you this if he raises this objection.

Oh, and I started my professional life over at 43 and it's going pretty well.

Everyone is different, years ago when I was having problems I went to AA and it really didn't do much for me. What helped me was finding a good church and going to God.

I will say going at addiction alone is the worst way to go. One reason AA works is you have a group and a sponsor to help you, most churches have groups or a person you can work with, or just open up to a close friend.

As a son of an alcoholic I would much rather my dad reaching out for help instead continuing down the path he was on. The situation kept getting out of control and I no longer speak with him, think last time I did was a decade ago. Don't let your friend get to that point, alcohol isn't worth losing family or friends over

Also had to choke out one of my friends recently since he was wasted and being very handsy to people that weren't his wife. Put him outside and got him an Uber. Found out that he has had 2-3 DWIs and he needs help, has a 10 year old kid he needs to be an example for.

Again, thanks for everyone's help and advice, it has helped tremendously.

He drove himself to the ER yesterday because of tremors and because he felt another seizure coming on, so I spent most of the day yesterday there with him (despite his objections). He was 3.5x the legal limit by 11am. It was a long day where he'd shift from being embarrassed and acknowledging this is costing him friends and will eventually kill him, to then still sometimes "defending" the alcohol and saying the situation is mostly because of the depression and anxiety and just that the "alcohol isn't helping". Doesn't seem to want to fully acknowledge that its a depression, anxiety AND alcohol problem.

We got him into a nice detox facility late last night (as doctor said he would absolutely go into withdrawals that night but until that actually happened the hospital couldn't do anything), but it's voluntary and can be for 3 days to as long as 30 so I have little doubt he's going to decide after the actual detox is done (through the weekend at best), that he's good to go and will depart.

The plan now is to coordinate with his eldest brother (who is overseas but still communicates with him somewhat regularly) to be the one that tries to break through to him about getting sobriety help since he is someone that he looks up to.

I'm not optimistic, as he's hard-headed and will either A) convince himself the alcohol really isn't the issue or B) convince himself he can control it himself... but not sure what else we can really do at this point but I guess that's a pretty common thing.

Again want to thank everyone for the suggestions, they've helped me guide how I talk to him and made it a bit easier on me to know the right things to say.

dfwag58 said:

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Again, thanks for everyone's help and advice, it has helped tremendously.

He drove himself to the ER yesterday because of tremors and because he felt another seizure coming on, so I spent most of the day yesterday there with him (despite his objections). He was 3.5x the legal limit by 11am. It was a long day where he'd shift from being embarrassed and acknowledging this is costing him friends and will eventually kill him, to then still sometimes "defending" the alcohol and saying the situation is mostly because of the depression and anxiety and just that the "alcohol isn't helping". Doesn't seem to want to fully acknowledge that its a depression, anxiety AND alcohol problem.

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The bolded parts show he needs help now, he is lucky he didn't kill someone and that is like finishing a fifth by 11am. How can you take care of a kid in that state? Sounds like he needs some tough love.

And agree he needs more than a detox, he needs some therapy as well

P.U.T.U said:

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dfwag58 said:

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Again, thanks for everyone's help and advice, it has helped tremendously.

He drove himself to the ER yesterday because of tremors and because he felt another seizure coming on, so I spent most of the day yesterday there with him (despite his objections). He was 3.5x the legal limit by 11am. It was a long day where he'd shift from being embarrassed and acknowledging this is costing him friends and will eventually kill him, to then still sometimes "defending" the alcohol and saying the situation is mostly because of the depression and anxiety and just that the "alcohol isn't helping". Doesn't seem to want to fully acknowledge that its a depression, anxiety AND alcohol problem.

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The bolded parts show he needs help now, he is lucky he didn't kill someone and that is like finishing a fifth by 11am. How can you take care of a kid in that state? Sounds like he needs some tough love.

And agree he needs more than a detox, he needs some therapy as well

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Agreed on the tough love. I've gone down that road a few times on essentially telling him what he is doing to his daughter/family/others, but I often pull back because he is someone who is also depressed and saying he doesn't want to kill himself but doesn't care if he dies. So I'm trying to navigate the "you are putting your daughter's life at risk" while not opening the thought in his head that things would be safer for his daughter if he wasn't around.

It's difficult for me to play the "you owe it to her" and "this is a burden that you have to bear" cards while at the same time seeing how broken he is himself. Even the detox when he started talking about how if he feels like he's not getting anything out of it he's not going to stay and I had to hold my tongue not to say "I'm paying $6k to try and get you clean maybe you can stop being so self-centered for once?".

There is no question he needs tough love.

Instead of nice detox, I would have suggested taking him to Green Oaks in Dallas. Most people I know that go there get a healthy dose of "I do not want to end up like the other people in here".

If he does not stop, this whole thing ends one of three ways for him guaranteed: Institutions, Prison or Death. He has already checked that first box now (twice). I am quite sure he IS suffering from a ton of anxiety and depression, and it isn't his feelings, it's his body from pouring that much ethyl alcohol down his throat every day.

At this point, nothing else matters in his life but the drinking problem. Family (including daughter), friends, job, etc are all irrelevant. If you have 50 problems and one of them is alcohol, you can't begin to solve the others until you get rid of that one. IF he lives and sobers up, there will be time and space to repair all of that down the road.

I know all this because I was your friend. I did everything you have posted so far, multiple times, minus the daughter part. I said every excuse he uses a hundred or a thousand times. I went to AA and everyone there told me how they had done the same things for the same reasons with the same sad results, and here is an easier way to do life. And for once in my life, I listened and did what I was told. I haven't drank since January 24, 2013, and because of that I have a life that I could never have imagined.

ETA: I wanted to address the if he feels like he isn't getting anything out of it part. He really have to give it 30 days, whether it's treatment there in detox or AA or whatever. It takes a while for things to sink in, and it takes a while for the effects of prolonged heavy drinking to wear off. As we say in the rooms, give it 90 days (or even 30), and at the end if you aren't satified we will gladly refund your misery. AA doesn't cost $6K either. It's suggested to drop a couple of bucks in the basket, but even that isn't required.