quote:
"Law and order" is great, but it should apply to everyone, without passion or prejudice.
It was applied to everybody. All 170 bikers.
Gunfight at the Twin Peaks [Staff Warning on page 47]
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Last: 2 yr ago by rather be fishing
It was applied to everybody. All 170 bikers.
quote:quote:
"Law and order" is great, but it should apply to everyone, without passion or prejudice.
It was applied to everybody. All 170 bikers.
Guilty or not
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quote:Right, and many are failing to apply it to the LEOs. That's the point I'm making. Thanks for missing it.quote:
"Law and order" is great, but it should apply to everyone, without passion or prejudice.
It was applied to everybody. All 170 bikers.
I didn't miss it.
I must say...
Since the start of this thread I have done a complete 180 with my opinion. At first I couldn't get past the dirty SOA idiots shooting up a TP. Now I see it as a typical government over reach. They blew their opportunity to snag a couple really bad apples by cutting down the whole tree.
Since the start of this thread I have done a complete 180 with my opinion. At first I couldn't get past the dirty SOA idiots shooting up a TP. Now I see it as a typical government over reach. They blew their opportunity to snag a couple really bad apples by cutting down the whole tree.
I think this is the biggest thing that has swayed my view.
Justice works slow. It was a mass murder/shooting event. I bet things get worked out eventually, although slower than we want in this 24 hour news society we're in.
quote:We should create an amendment to the Constitution guaranteeing the right to a speedy trial to help keep innocent people out of jail.
Justice works slow.
When I saw how orderly the bikers were, sitting/standing in multiple single files, while apparently being "processed", I was surprised to learn later of the mass arrests. The behavior, post shootings, was surprisingly tame, by all appearances. Although perhaps most all those involved in the shooting were neutralized prior. Then I rationalized it was deemed necessary out of an abundance of caution. But the passage of time has revealed a likely more sinister intent, or at least outcome. Can't believe the authorities don't sense the public unrest that must be building.
quote:Novel idea, that one!quote:We should create an amendment to the Constitution guaranteeing the right to a speedy trial to help keep innocent people out of jail.
Justice works slow.
quote:And the TWO people that are arrested that have attorneys that have filed a motion for an Examining Trial to determine the truth in their probable cause affidavit cannot have their hearing until mid August. So three months stuck in jail when they may not have done anything at all illegal.quote:
Justice works slow. It was a mass murder/shooting event. I bet things get worked out eventually, although slower than we want in this 24 hour news society we're in.
Who gives a flip about the new cycle? Incarceration of innocent people is outrageous. We are are nearly 2 weeks after the Shooting, not a few hours.
That's where I am too. I don't have single problem with anything law enforcement did the day of the shootout; the scene must have been a complete nightmare and they had very legitimate concerns about these guys (Bandidos and Cossacks) continuing their feud elsewhere in the city or on the road - better to round them all up, cool them in jail and figure out who did what. Even the crazy high bail made sense as a way to keep the hotheads behind bars until the "bystanders" could be checked and released.
But since then, I am really concerned about how it appears that these guys are being held indefinitely, with bail that is too high for almost any honest middle-class citizen to put up. They are losing income, in a lot of cases going to be losing jobs, and putting families in a lot of hardship to seemingly just prove a point. I freely admit that there are probably a lot of things going on behind the scenes that we don't know and it may well turn out when this is all over that this was the correct strategy. But so far, with the evidence that we have, it's concerning.
But since then, I am really concerned about how it appears that these guys are being held indefinitely, with bail that is too high for almost any honest middle-class citizen to put up. They are losing income, in a lot of cases going to be losing jobs, and putting families in a lot of hardship to seemingly just prove a point. I freely admit that there are probably a lot of things going on behind the scenes that we don't know and it may well turn out when this is all over that this was the correct strategy. But so far, with the evidence that we have, it's concerning.
quote:Maybe after we pass that one, we can make ridiculously high bail intended to "send a message" as Justice of the Peace Peterson said illegal.quote:Novel idea, that one!quote:We should create an amendment to the Constitution guaranteeing the right to a speedy trial to help keep innocent people out of jail.
Justice works slow.
quote:Outrageous!quote:quote:
Who gives a flip about the new cycle? Incarceration of innocent people is outrageous. We are are nearly 2 weeks after the Shooting, not a few hours. And the TWO people that are arrested that have attorneys that have filed a motion for an Examining Trial to determine the truth in their probable cause affidavit cannot have their hearing until mid August. So three months stuck in jail when they may not have done anything at all illegal.
quote:
That's where I am too. I don't have single problem with anything law enforcement did the day of the shootout; the scene must have been a complete nightmare and they had very legitimate concerns about these guys (Bandidos and Cossacks) continuing their feud elsewhere in the city or on the road - better to round them all up, cool them in jail and figure out who did what. Even the crazy high bail made sense as a way to keep the hotheads behind bars until the "bystanders" could be checked and released.
But since then, I am really concerned about how it appears that these guys are being held indefinitely, with bail that is too high for almost any honest middle-class citizen to put up. They are losing income, in a lot of cases going to be losing jobs, and putting families in a lot of hardship to seemingly just prove a point. I freely admit that there are probably a lot of things going on behind the scenes that we don't know and it may well turn out when this is all over that this was the correct strategy. But so far, with the evidence that we have, it's concerning.
The police had the option of arresting everyone, holding them for 48-72 hours and then charging the ones they had evidence of guilt or allowing them to go free if they thought they were not guilty or didn't have probable cause to charge them. Waco Police chose not to take that option and instead wrote an incredibly weak probable cause affidavit and applied it to everyone, even people that were eating in the restaurant next door that were not wearing leather vests or jackets.
edit: GS answered some of this before I clicked the post button.
Suppose the JP was reacting to intial reports and rumors from that day, i.e. the reported threats from the Bandidos against LEO, threats of escalation, etc., and set the $1MM bail as a way to lock everyone down for the time being as a period of cooling off and sorting things out. I can't speak to whether he did or did not, but just supposin'. Outside of the scheduled bail reduction hearings, is there a way expedite the process? Could the JP on his own go back and decide to lower bail amounts?
If you could wave the wand and turn loose SoA, the Mayans, Grim *******s and anyone else not wearing Cossack or Bandido colors, how do you decide whom and how much? I'm not defending, or blaming for that matter, WPD or the JP, but how exactly does Waco or any other city handle all of a sudden arresting 10-15 times the number of people they normally do on a given day - especially given the attention the whole deal is getting.
Suppose the JP was reacting to intial reports and rumors from that day, i.e. the reported threats from the Bandidos against LEO, threats of escalation, etc., and set the $1MM bail as a way to lock everyone down for the time being as a period of cooling off and sorting things out. I can't speak to whether he did or did not, but just supposin'. Outside of the scheduled bail reduction hearings, is there a way expedite the process? Could the JP on his own go back and decide to lower bail amounts?
If you could wave the wand and turn loose SoA, the Mayans, Grim *******s and anyone else not wearing Cossack or Bandido colors, how do you decide whom and how much? I'm not defending, or blaming for that matter, WPD or the JP, but how exactly does Waco or any other city handle all of a sudden arresting 10-15 times the number of people they normally do on a given day - especially given the attention the whole deal is getting.
quote:He specifically said he set it that high to "send a message."
Suppose the JP was reacting to intial reports and rumors from that day, i.e. the reported threats from the Bandidos against LEO, threats of escalation, etc., and set the $1MM bail as a way to lock everyone down for the time being as a period of cooling off and sorting things out.
That is unconstitutional.
In Stack v Boyle, the Supreme Court said bail can only be set for an amount that ensures the defendant will show up at trial. It cannot be used to send a message.
quote:
I can't speak to whether he did or did not, but just supposin'. Outside of the scheduled bail reduction hearings, is there a way expedite the process? Could the JP on his own go back and decide to lower bail amounts?
I guess the JP could overrule himself and reset it, but then he is admitting a mistake that could be construed as a Constitutional Rights Violation, and I am not sure I see that happening.
Two people have hearings scheduled, but not for about 3 months after the arrest just to contest the probable cause.
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quote:This is my whole point. Our individual rights are the only real check we have on the government. The fact that so many seem so willing to just give them away is outrageous to me. If we don't apply the laws the same way against everyone, all the time, the Rule of Law means nothing. I'm not saying we should crucify the cops or the JP, but we need to make sure - as law abiding citizens of these United States and the State of Texas - that our government officials are held accountable for their actions.quote:Maybe after we pass that one, we can make ridiculously high bail intended to "send a message" as Justice of the Peace Peterson said illegal.quote:Novel idea, that one!quote:We should create an amendment to the Constitution guaranteeing the right to a speedy trial to help keep innocent people out of jail.
Justice works slow.
Justice is slow, but things will work out. It may also work out badly for McClennan Co. Give it time.
In the meantime the old saw about playing stupid games comes to mind. Anybody showing up that day wearing gang apparel should not be surprised that they're sitting in jail right now after 9 shooting deaths and 18 injuries.
In the meantime the old saw about playing stupid games comes to mind. Anybody showing up that day wearing gang apparel should not be surprised that they're sitting in jail right now after 9 shooting deaths and 18 injuries.
quote:Things will work out fine is pretty easy for you to say from where you are sitting. Meanwhile, many people are having their rights violated, are losing money, may have lost their job, can't see their families.
Justice is slow, but things will work out. It may also work out badly for McClennan Co. Give it time.
quote:
In the meantime the old saw about playing stupid games comes to mind. Anybody showing up that day wearing gang apparel should not be surprised that they're sitting in jail right now after 9 shooting deaths and 18 injuries.
There were people arrested that were not wearing leather vests or leather jackets. There were people arrested without any patches of any kind. There were people arrested that were wearing patches of non-criminal clubs.
Not everyone was wearing gang apparel. I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Bandidos and Cossacks that are in county jail. But for people that weren't members of those gangs, I feel incredible sympathy for, as do most people I know that believe in the rights of American citizens.
Obligatory reminder that the primary purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect the citizens from the government, and not the other way around.
quote:The Bill of Rights was written specifically to prevent the type of abuses we are seeing here in Waco in this case.
Obligatory reminder that the primary purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect the citizens from the government, and not the other way around.
techno, you're a good poster, but that's just not appropriate for page 27 of this thread. We're WAY past that discussion, as GS summed up.
quote:It was such a revolutionary idea at the time, it only took our judicial system about 150 years (and the Fourteenth Amendment) to catch up with it.quote:The Bill of Rights was written specifically to prevent the type of abuses we are seeing here in Waco in this case.
Obligatory reminder that the primary purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect the citizens from the government, and not the other way around.
Sorry, I still disagree.
And like I said, given time, if WPD and the JP were way out of line, things will correct themselves. It's just the 24 hour news cycle has helped make us incredibly impatient about these things.
And like I said, given time, if WPD and the JP were way out of line, things will correct themselves. It's just the 24 hour news cycle has helped make us incredibly impatient about these things.
quote:
Sorry, I still disagree.
And like I said, given time, if WPD and the JP were way out of line, things will correct themselves. It's just the 24 hour news cycle has helped make us incredibly impatient about these things.
Not everyone has to love Freedom. That's your right as a free person.
quote:
We're WAY past that discussion
You may be, but the rest of us aren't.
I will admit some concern about the timing, but there is federal habeus corpus relief possibilities. Has anyone attempted that yet?
quote:I was wondering that myself.quote:
We're WAY past that discussion
You may be, but the rest of us aren't.
I will admit some concern about the timing, but there is federal habeus corpus relief possibilities. Has anyone attempted that yet?
I am sure federal judge would love to smack down a JP for due process errors.
quote:Last I heard, not everyone had attorneys yet.quote:
We're WAY past that discussion
You may be, but the rest of us aren't.
I will admit some concern about the timing, but there is federal habeus corpus relief possibilities. Has anyone attempted that yet?
There are only 29 attorneys that are qualified to handle cases like this in McLennan county and 90+ requesting a public defender. McLennan does not participate in the regional public defense.
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