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Gunfight at the Twin Peaks [Staff Warning on page 47]

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Hoss
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3:20p, 5/22/15
AG
1) For everyone here being critical of Waco PD and how they've handled the situation, I'd sure like to know how YOU would handle this situation. Personally, given the number of people involved or at least possibly involved, I'm willing to be a little lenient with them as they try and sort this mess out. I'm sure there's not a single person with Waco PD or even DPS that has had to deal with a gunfight of this magnitude before.

2) As far as the story changing, of course it's changing. Every time they learn new details about what happened the story has to change with it. The only way the story could NOT change is if Waco PD didn't make any statements to the press until after the investigation was 100% complete.

3) Whether or not police killed or arrested innocent people still remains to be seen. I see a lot of people acting as if Waco PD killed innocent bystanders. For one thing, at this point we don't know who or how many people were killed by PD. For another, I highly doubt that any of the people shot by police were not actively engaged in shooting at police or at someone else. Regardless of what some folks may think, it's not really good for a police officer's career or his conscious to kill an innocent person.

4) This one is just food for thought. What do you do if you're a CHL holder there with your family and this breaks out? Becoming part of the gunfight doesn't seem like a good idea to me. And in this case exiting the building might not be the best idea either. I think your best option is to just seek cover and keep your head down.
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Ogre09
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3:29p, 5/22/15
AG
Bad guys died. No good guys died. Only problem I see is more of the thugs didn't end up dead. Guess they got a good bunch of them locked up, for now.
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Kenneth_2003
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3:37p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
No good guys died.
You serious Clark? I think you could paint the Great Wall of China with that brush you're using. There are two dead that were not Bandidos or Cossacks. Two people whose only affiliation with either of those two MC's was being at a Confederation of Clubs meeting which the Cossacks aren't even members of nor were they supposedly even invited to.

Or in your book is everyone that wears a black leather vest while riding their Harley a thug?
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to Hoss • 3:39p, 5/22/15
AG
Agree with Hoss 100%. We'll see how the facts pan out, but it's crazy to see so many jumping to very dark assumptions as more facts have become known, considering this crime scene and the number of witnesses was the clusterF of all clusterF's. One of the first thoughts I had about this when hearing it on Sunday was what a fugging nightmare it was going to be to process that scene, interview all of the witnesses appropriately, and then piece the entire thing together.

There's a problem if the story doesn't evolve.
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Expert Analysis
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3:39p, 5/22/15
AG
Hoss, 1 and 3 will be answered when they release the videos.
#4, I wouldn't have been there with that many bikers. not that I am against them, they are just outside my typical people to associate with. If I was, I would have been hiding for sure, just like most of the bikers did...
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Guitarsoup
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3:47p, 5/22/15
AG
How many murder cases in America are you aware of where the police arrested all possible suspects and set bail high enough where they believed no one would be able to post before they collected all the evidence?

I think the police should have arrested the people they witnessed breaking the law and detained and questioned the rest. SC says you can hold 72 hours without charges without violating their rights.

So get your ass in gear and figure out who needs to be charged and who needs to be set free. Crazy notion right? Following the condition and all.
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Hoss
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In reply to Player To Be Named Later • 4:16p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
Latest Intel is that several high ranking members of the Bandidos has reached out to law enforcement channels and let them know they do not have issues with, or standing "green light" to attack law enforcement.

Which would seem odd if Waco PD did in fact "ambush" these guys. Sure, Bandidos genreally avoid outright confrontation with LE, but if anything would bring that about I would assume Waco PD ambushing and shooting at them with no cause would bring that about.
It would be a mistake of monumental proportions for them to target police. If even one police officer was killed by a biker gang in retaliation for this then said gang wouldn't be safe anywhere in the country.
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Player To Be Named Later
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 4:20p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
How many murder cases in America are you aware of where the police arrested all possible suspects and set bail high enough where they believed no one would be able to post before they collected all the evidence?


Waco PD didn't set the bail amount. The judge that read the probable cause affidavits set the bail amount where he did, maybe because he's privy to more information than everyone that's speculating.

If you take issue with the bail amount that was set, the person to blame for that is the judge. That guy will look pretty silly if he set bail at $1,000,000 for someone that he could not find probable cause for an arrest, or at least for that charge.

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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Player To Be Named Later • 4:23p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
quote:
How many murder cases in America are you aware of where the police arrested all possible suspects and set bail high enough where they believed no one would be able to post before they collected all the evidence?


Waco PD didn't set the bail amount. The judge that read the probable cause affidavits set the bail amount where he did, maybe because he's privy to more information than everyone that's speculating.

If you take issue with the bail amount that was set, the person to blame for that is the judge. That guy will look pretty silly if he set bail at $1,000,000 for someone that he could not find probable cause for an arrest, or at least for that charge.



The engineer from Austin was late to the place and was never even inside the police line. And he is sitting in jail with a million dollar bond. He is not a Cossacks or Bandidos. What do you think his probable cause affidavit said?
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Player To Be Named Later
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In reply to Hoss • 4:24p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
It would be a mistake of monumental proportions for them to target police. If even one police officer was killed by a biker gang in retaliation for this then said gang wouldn't be safe anywhere in the country.


Exactly. These guys may be criminals, but they're generally smarter than your average thug.

Coming in to work an OT gig today I heard that ATF was in town interviewing someone in reference to this incident. There are way bigger fish swimming in this pool than just Waco PD.
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Ogre09
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In reply to Kenneth_2003 • 4:26p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
There are two dead that were not Bandidos or Cossacks. Two people whose only affiliation with either of those two MC's was being at a Confederation of Clubs meeting

Link?

quote:
which the Cossacks aren't even members of nor were they supposedly even invited to.

I don't know why this keeps coming up. Are we taking sides now between the two crews of thugs? Those terrible Cossacks crashing this peaceful Bandidos tea party.

quote:
Or in your book is everyone that wears a black leather vest while riding their Harley a thug?

Some are, most are just pretending to be.
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 4:31p, 5/22/15
AG
It may have said "terminal dumbass". And none of us has any idea about the facts regarding this guy's involvement, or lack thereof.
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2 edits
Player To Be Named Later
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 4:35p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:


The engineer from Austin was late to the place and was never even inside the police line. And he is sitting in jail with a million dollar bond. He is not a Cossacks or Bandidos. What do you think his probable cause affidavit said?


I have no idea, and neither do you. But my point remains the same, the PD doesn't set the bond amount, the judge does. After they read the affidavit and determine if probable cause was met. You made it sound like "that damn Waco PD threw an outrageous bond on these people" when in reality they don't set the bond.
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Hoss
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In reply to Expert Analysis • 4:36p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
Hoss, 1 and 3 will be answered when they release the videos.
#4, I wouldn't have been there with that many bikers. not that I am against them, they are just outside my typical people to associate with. If I was, I would have been hiding for sure, just like most of the bikers did...
#1 was a direct question to anyone who thinks they could do it better, so the videos won't help with that.

#3 could possibly be addressed with available videos, at least to some extent, but we don't know that yet.

On #4 I'm pretty much in agreement with you. If I pulled up and saw that many bikes I'd go somewhere else if for no other reason than it being too crowded. Hypothetically though, if I were there when this happened, I think hiding behind cover until it's over is definitely the safest option (whether you're armed or not).

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EMY92
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In reply to Hoss • 4:52p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
On #4 I'm pretty much in agreement with you. If I pulled up and saw that many bikes I'd go somewhere else if for no other reason than it being too crowded. Hypothetically though, if I were there when this happened, I think hiding behind cover until it's over is definitely the safest option (whether you're armed or not).
I agree with you. I've thought about this a bit since this happened 10 minutes from my house. I doubt that I'd be comfortable with a couple of hundred bikers, so I would have gone elsewhere.

If I were there when things went down, looking for cover is about the only thing you could do. I know some people went to the kitchen and took cover in the freezer, I may have my weapon ready if I were in there, but outside of that, there would be too many potential targets and it would be hard to determine who is the threat to you.
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Expert Analysis
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In reply to EMY92 • 5:29p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
quote:
If I were there when things went down, looking for cover is about the only thing you could do. I know some people went to the kitchen and took cover in the freezer, I may have my weapon ready if I were in there, but outside of that, there would be too many potential targets and it would be hard to determine who is the threat to you.
be careful having the weapon ready in an active shooting scene, whether right or wrong the police may shoot you. I do not doubt that this happened during this incident.
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BoerneGator
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In reply to Expert Analysis • 5:42p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
If I were there when things went down, looking for cover is about the only thing you could do. I know some people went to the kitchen and took cover in the freezer, I may have my weapon ready if I were in there, but outside of that, there would be too many potential targets and it would be hard to determine who is the threat to you.
be careful having the weapon ready in an active shooting scene, whether right or wrong the police may shoot you. I do not doubt that this happened during this incident.
See, this is what I fear as well. EMY meant "ready" as in a defensive posture, but ready to protect his own life, while I fear an LEO from 'afar' may have interpreted that as threatening, and "neutralized" it. Tragic! As unlikely as it may seem, it's infinitely possible.
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Player To Be Named Later
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5:52p, 5/22/15
Player To Be Named Later
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6:05p, 5/22/15
AG
Ok, all the posts weren't showing up 5 minutes ago, now they are??
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texagbeliever
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6:11p, 5/22/15
same thing happened to me on the mobile. (on laptop now)
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EMY92
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In reply to Expert Analysis • 6:18p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
If I were there when things went down, looking for cover is about the only thing you could do. I know some people went to the kitchen and took cover in the freezer, I may have my weapon ready if I were in there, but outside of that, there would be too many potential targets and it would be hard to determine who is the threat to you.
be careful having the weapon ready in an active shooting scene, whether right or wrong the police may shoot you. I do not doubt that this happened during this incident.
That's why I mentioned in the freezer, there is only one way in and out. Not going to get popped from a distance in that case.
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laavispa
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7:39p, 5/22/15
Oh the irony

quote:
The Texas House approved the measure, which would funnel state fees to motorcycle safety campaigns, sending it to Gov. Greg Abbott.

Five men wearing leather jackets and vests watched the vote.

They advocated for the bill in place of three bikers who helped write the legislation, but who are among about 170 people jailed following Sunday's melee.

Legislature Passes MC Bill
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Hoss
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In reply to Expert Analysis • 7:44p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
If I were there when things went down, looking for cover is about the only thing you could do. I know some people went to the kitchen and took cover in the freezer, I may have my weapon ready if I were in there, but outside of that, there would be too many potential targets and it would be hard to determine who is the threat to you.
be careful having the weapon ready in an active shooting scene, whether right or wrong the police may shoot you. I do not doubt that this happened during this incident.


Based on what? Your expert analysis of what you've read on the Internet?

I'm not saying that couldn't have happened, but unless you're one of the guys that got shot there's know way you can know that at this point.

That said, I agree that it's best to keep your gun holstered unless you absolutely MUST draw it to defend yourself.
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In reply to Hoss • 7:53p, 5/22/15
Player To Be Named Later
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In reply to [removed post] • 8:29p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:


I hope they run g s r tests on the dead guys. I will be interested to know how many fired a shot.


Why does it matter if they actually fired a shot or not?
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In reply to Player To Be Named Later • 8:38p, 5/22/15
carpe vinum
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8:45p, 5/22/15
AG
LEOs aim for torso by training, maybe a correlation with the ones with trunk wounds vs the ones with head wounds.
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Player To Be Named Later
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In reply to carpe vinum • 8:48p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
LEOs aim for torso by training, maybe a correlation with the ones with trunk wounds vs the ones with head wounds.


Where do bikers try to shoot people?
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aggie_2001_2005
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In reply to [removed post] • 8:52p, 5/22/15
quote:
quote:
quote:


I hope they run g s r tests on the dead guys. I will be interested to know how many fired a shot.


Why does it matter if they actually fired a shot or not?


You don't think that could help determine who was acting in a defensive or offensive manner? Certainly not definitive but if they never fired a shot it would make me ask more questions.
Agree.
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aggie_2001_2005
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In reply to Player To Be Named Later • 8:54p, 5/22/15
quote:
quote:
LEOs aim for torso by training, maybe a correlation with the ones with trunk wounds vs the ones with head wounds.


Where do bikers try to shoot people?
Somewhere between the brass knuckle mark on your forehead and the chain marks on your ass.
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Player To Be Named Later
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In reply to [removed post] • 8:57p, 5/22/15
AG
quote:
quote:
quote:


I hope they run g s r tests on the dead guys. I will be interested to know how many fired a shot.


Why does it matter if they actually fired a shot or not?


You don't think that could help determine who was acting in a defensive or offensive manner? Certainly not definitive but if they never fired a shot it would make me ask more questions.


I don't think it tells you anything. This thread has reached critical mass of speculation at this point.

Someone who fired a shot could have been firing offensively or defensively.

Someone who was holding a firearm and had no GSR could have been acting in an offensive manner and just not fired yet, or acting in a defensive manner and not fired.

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MouthBQ98
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9:00p, 5/22/15
AG
Are all low rider car clubs drug dealers and gangsters? Nope. Are all people at frat parties drugging and raping coeds?

There are millions of people that ride motorcycles for entertainment, and a very small fraction also happen to be criminal gangs. Yet, they have a common interest and so are sometimes in the same events related to motorcycles...

I think the PD did what they thought they had to, but wide sweeps of arrests alarm me.
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DannyDuberstein
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9:01p, 5/22/15
AG
All true, but the COC is still led by the Bandidos.
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MouthBQ98
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9:04p, 5/22/15
AG
The recreational biker crowd and cc license crowd will have considerable demographic overlap.
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MouthBQ98
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9:05p, 5/22/15
AG
That is something to consider. It was an edgier crowd to be sure.
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