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Gunfight at the Twin Peaks [Staff Warning on page 47]

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91AggieLawyer
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2:14p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
The rest were more like your normal groups

According to news reports, they aren't cooperating with police as to what occurred in the restaurant leading up to the violence. Thus, these "normal groups" are facing a capital offense charge rather than what would almost certainly bring a misdemeanor plea deal. I realize some would assert they won't talk out of fear for their safety if they do, but I would think most "normal" people would take their chances with that over an assured 15+ years in a maximum security prison where their safety will be at risk.

GS, is there anything I wrote here that is factually untrue or illogical? The reason I ask is because I really can't buy that these are what I would call "normal," law abiding (sans a little hell raising) individuals. But I'm open to suggestion.
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91AggieLawyer
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2:15p, 5/19/15
AG
Incidentally, I'm also wondering why, if there was a police presence as asserted prior to the violence, the facts of what happened inside are unclear to authorities now.
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TXAGFAN
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 2:19p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
quote:
GS: if this meeting were being held at a restaurant you wanted to go to for Sunday lunch, you arrived and saw who was there (before anything violent happened), would you have still gone in?
I would have still gone in, but I grew up around bikers and am not afraid of a bunch of guys because they are in a motorcycle club. I'd probably chat with them about their bikes and road trips they have gone on.
I ride and probably would have too. Usually the outlaw MC's don't mix it up in public. This is all bizarre.
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confucius_ag
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2:19p, 5/19/15
AG
It has only been 2 days. Let them do their thing.

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Guitarsoup
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In reply to 91AggieLawyer • 2:25p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
quote:
The rest were more like your normal groups

According to news reports, they aren't cooperating with police as to what occurred in the restaurant leading up to the violence. Thus, these "normal groups" are facing a capital offense charge rather than what would almost certainly bring a misdemeanor plea deal. I realize some would assert they won't talk out of fear for their safety if they do, but I would think most "normal" people would take their chances with that over an assured 15+ years in a maximum security prison where their safety will be at risk.

GS, is there anything I wrote here that is factually untrue or illogical? The reason I ask is because I really can't buy that these are what I would call "normal," law abiding (sans a little hell raising) individuals. But I'm open to suggestion.
You are an attorney. If your client was charged with a capital crime, would you suggest that he talk with police or exercise his right to remain silent? Also, we don't even know if anyone that has been arrested has been able to spend time talking to an attorney. Heck, WPD was keeping them in a conference center for a while.

Plus, like you said, there are actual really bad dudes mixed in there. Do you really want to put your family at risk by being the one that snitched on a big motorcycle gang that has killed people?

The vast majority of motorcycle clubs are not gangs in any way. They are just an association of riders. Some do great stuff (like the guys that harass the Westboro Baptist Church when they protest and ride their bikes in circles revving the unmuffled engines so no one can hear them. There are groups that are big Christian organizations that minister to other groups. And there are bad guy groups like the Bandidos and Coassacks and Hells Angels (there is no ' in Hells, BTW) that run drug and prostitution rings. There is a wide variety of motorcycle clubs, and the majority of them aren't even hell raisers.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to 91AggieLawyer • 2:26p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
Incidentally, I'm also wondering why, if there was a police presence as asserted prior to the violence, the facts of what happened inside are unclear to authorities now.
Fight started inside. WPD didn't have anyone inside.
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91AggieLawyer
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2:32p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
If your client was charged with a capital crime, would you suggest that he talk with police or exercise his right to remain silent?

I don't do criminal law, but this is highly fact specific. Talking with police when they are singularly focused on putting YOU away is probably unwise, especially if they have little other evidence. In this case, GS and others are asserting that most of these individuals want nothing to do with violence, but in this case they are being charged with a CAPITAL offense. Again, depending on the circumstances, I would likely be advising such a client that they need to start singing loud and strong.

quote:
Do you really want to put your family at risk by being the one that snitched on a big motorcycle gang that has killed people?

I thought I responded to that idea in my post: compared to 20 years in a maximum security joint (or possibly death row)? Damn straight. There's witness protection.

How about not putting your family at risk in the first place by being at a place where at least one violent biker gang was at. There's no way I'm associating with any individual or group involved in lawlessness even if I know for sure that lawlessness won't be directed at me. These "normal" groups that GS is talking about are still associating in SOME way with the Bandidos (sp??).
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to 91AggieLawyer • 2:33p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
quote:
If your client was charged with a capital crime, would you suggest that he talk with police or exercise his right to remain silent?

I don't do criminal law, but this is highly fact specific. Talking with police when they are singularly focused on putting YOU away is probably unwise, especially if they have little other evidence. In this case, GS and others are asserting that most of these individuals want nothing to do with violence, but in this case they are being charged with a CAPITAL offense. Again, depending on the circumstances, I would likely be advising such a client that they need to start singing loud and strong.
If I did nothing wrong and knew they didn't take a weapon from me and that I wasn't a member of the Bandidos, but rather something less mafia-esque, I would be much more worried about the Bandidos and Cossacks than Waco PD.
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maverick2076
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In reply to 91AggieLawyer • 2:34p, 5/19/15
quote:
quote:
The rest were more like your normal groups

According to news reports, they aren't cooperating with police as to what occurred in the restaurant leading up to the violence. Thus, these "normal groups" are facing a capital offense charge rather than what would almost certainly bring a misdemeanor plea deal. I realize some would assert they won't talk out of fear for their safety if they do, but I would think most "normal" people would take their chances with that over an assured 15+ years in a maximum security prison where their safety will be at risk.

GS, is there anything I wrote here that is factually untrue or illogical? The reason I ask is because I really can't buy that these are what I would call "normal," law abiding (sans a little hell raising) individuals. But I'm open to suggestion.

Over 200 people crammed into a restaurant. Do you think any of them other than those right there when it started really know what happened?

And FYI, members from the other clubs not directly involved have already been released, and have been for some time.
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SteveBott
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2:37p, 5/19/15
AG
I posted on another thread.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/police-uninvited-biker-gang-triggered-waco-shootin/nmJ9j/

interesting part is not the names of the deceased. What is interesting all dead were Bandidos and Cossacks and only 50 weapons were seized.

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txaggie02
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In reply to 91AggieLawyer • 2:37p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
Incidentally, I'm also wondering why, if there was a police presence as asserted prior to the violence, the facts of what happened inside are unclear to authorities now.
The Waco Police Chief made is clear at this morning's press conference that they wanted to be inside, but Twin Peaks management didn't approve of it. Instead, the Waco police department had 18 officers and DPS had 4 officers that were essentially positioned right around the corner and waiting for the call, as they knew something was going to happen. He said in previous conferences that their officers were at the scene in approximately 45 seconds.

quote:
These "normal" groups that GS is talking about are still associating in SOME way with the Bandidos (sp??).

Is this another lawyer fact? Or actual fact? You seem to have alot of facts stored up that nobody else knows about.
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SteveBott
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2:37p, 5/19/15
AG
Maverick can link about some already released?
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aggielostinETX
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2:38p, 5/19/15
AG
Just had lunch with guy who knows one of the guys killed...

Said he had jumped into the lifestyle over the last year and it led to a divorce and eventually this.
He was a Scimitar.
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carpe vinum
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2:40p, 5/19/15
AG
I thought only the Cossacks and Bandidos were involved from the news reports.
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Illustrious Potentate
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2:41p, 5/19/15
AG
Here's what I don't understand...

Let's say I'm an accountant and on the weekends I enjoy riding my bike. Let's say I'm even into putting on leather clothes and maybe I got a tattoo to go along with my weekend warrior persona.

All of that I can understand, I guess. But why in the f*** do you want to join an organization that is headed up by outlaws. Sure - maybe your MC isn't the bad one....well guess what, the bad one is the one that allows you to have your MC????

I don't understand any of it. Why the f*** does there even need to be a CoC? If I enjoy riding with my buddies on the weekends, why not start your own club?

The entire mentality is beyond me....
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aggielostinETX
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2:41p, 5/19/15
AG
Apparently Scimitars are a Cossack supporter.
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carpe vinum
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2:42p, 5/19/15
AG
Just saw the names of dead were released

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Waco-Shooting-Near-Twin-Peaks-In-Waco-304043711.html
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91AggieLawyer
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2:43p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
There is a wide variety of motorcycle clubs, and the majority of them aren't even hell raisers.

Are there any reports that either the Waco PD or the Feds have any interest in charging such individuals if they happened to be at TP?

How many Christian/Veteran/etc. (i.e. "good guy") clubs were at TP Sunday? How many had weapons?
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aggielostinETX
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2:43p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
Matthew Mark Smith, 27, died of gunshot wounds to the trunk
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txaggie02
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In reply to carpe vinum • 2:45p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
I thought only the Cossacks and Bandidos were involved from the news reports.

No. There were other MCs there as it was a CoC meeting. Meaning that there were representatives from multiple MCs in the area. I've seen pictures with bikers wear vests from the Scimitars and Gypsys. That being said, it appears that the main conflict is between the Cossacks and Bandidos. From some reports that I have read, supposedly the Scimitars are looking at re-patching to the Cossacks. Were there other MCs there that were siding with the Cossacks or Bandidos? Possibly. Were there other MCs there that weren't siding with either and got caught up in a mess? Possibly and probably.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to 91AggieLawyer • 2:48p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
quote:
There is a wide variety of motorcycle clubs, and the majority of them aren't even hell raisers.

Are there any reports that either the Waco PD or the Feds have any interest in charging such individuals if they happened to be at TP?

How many Christian/Veteran/etc. (i.e. "good guy") clubs were at TP Sunday? How many had weapons?


All excellent questions that would be answered of we actually knew. Waco Police was doubling the number of weapons until today. It may go down again tomorrow. We don't know and it seems like wpd doesn't know the answered to your questions
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htxag09
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In reply to Illustrious Potentate • 2:50p, 5/19/15
AG
I have several friends that ride. Hell, my dad and brother do and I enjoy riding with them. Would consider buying a bike but have too many toys higher up on the list. I've talked to most of my friends about MC's and they said they've thought about joining some, like a local HOG chapter. But none do because it apparently restricts when and where you ride and they want to ride whenever and wherever they want. Don't know if this is the full truth but don't know why anyone would join if that's the case......
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DannyDuberstein
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2:50p, 5/19/15
AG
Affadavit says it initially broke out in the parking lot. With how some of the bikes of some of the dead guys were parked, it looked like it was breaking out as soon as some rode up.
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Illustrious Potentate
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 2:50p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
There is a wide variety of motorcycle clubs, and the majority of them aren't even hell raisers.

Are there any reports that either the Waco PD or the Feds have any interest in charging such individuals if they happened to be at TP?

How many Christian/Veteran/etc. (i.e. "good guy") clubs were at TP Sunday? How many had weapons?


All excellent questions that would be answered of we actually knew. Waco Police was doubling the number of weapons until today. It may go down again tomorrow. We don't know and it seems like wpd doesn't know the answered to your questions
Is it possible they have recently got a good count on the number of weapons?
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Illustrious Potentate • 2:54p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
There is a wide variety of motorcycle clubs, and the majority of them aren't even hell raisers.

Are there any reports that either the Waco PD or the Feds have any interest in charging such individuals if they happened to be at TP?

How many Christian/Veteran/etc. (i.e. "good guy") clubs were at TP Sunday? How many had weapons?


All excellent questions that would be answered of we actually knew. Waco Police was doubling the number of weapons until today. It may go down again tomorrow. We don't know and it seems like wpd doesn't know the answered to your questions
Is it possible they have recently got a good count on the number of weapons?


you think Waco Police waant able to count fifty knives and guns on Sunday?
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aggielostinETX
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 2:54p, 5/19/15
AG
I want to read this..link?
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txaggie02
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2:54p, 5/19/15
AG
Atleast one was a Cossack.....

http://heavy.com/news/2015/05/wayne-lee-campbell-waco-shooting-shootout-victim-dead-cossacks-motorcycle-biker-club-gang-victim-cause-of-death-photos-children-family-memorial/
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to htxag09 • 2:56p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
I have several friends that ride. Hell, my dad and brother do and I enjoy riding with them. Would consider buying a bike but have too many toys higher up on the list. I've talked to most of my friends about MC's and they said they've thought about joining some, like a local HOG chapter. But none do because it apparently restricts when and where you ride and they want to ride whenever and wherever they want. Don't know if this is the full truth but don't know why anyone would join if that's the case......


They don't know what you are talking about. HOG isn't going to restrict anything about riding.
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91AggieLawyer
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In reply to txaggie02 • 2:56p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:

quote:
These "normal" groups that GS is talking about are still associating in SOME way with the Bandidos (sp??).

Is this another lawyer fact? Or actual fact? You seem to have alot of facts stored up that nobody else knowsabout.

What part of the statement is incorrect? The Bandidos were present, right? Were they hiding? Did the other groups not know they were there?

Are you really so intent on arguing with me that you've actually lost focus on what point you are trying to make or respond to?

My point is solely this: I don't buy the idea that the MCs at TP had absolutely no inclination that there could POSSIBLY be a violent incident there that day, and thus going there was irresponsible. THERE -- if you disagree, fine. Argue away. But you're making yourself look silly by introducing ad hominem. What my screen name is and what I do for a living isn't relevant to the discussion, so why bring it up?
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maverick2076
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In reply to 91AggieLawyer • 2:57p, 5/19/15
quote:
quote:
There is a wide variety of motorcycle clubs, and the majority of them aren't even hell raisers.

Are there any reports that either the Waco PD or the Feds have any interest in charging such individuals if they happened to be at TP?

How many Christian/Veteran/etc. (i.e. "good guy") clubs were at TP Sunday? How many had weapons?


Quite a few. I listed some of them whose patches I recognized earlier. I'm not sure how big the central TX COC is, but there are somewhere around 250 different MCs, RCs, MAs, and MMs in the Houston COC. Only a very few of them are 1% clubs.
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Illustrious Potentate
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 2:58p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
There is a wide variety of motorcycle clubs, and the majority of them aren't even hell raisers.

Are there any reports that either the Waco PD or the Feds have any interest in charging such individuals if they happened to be at TP?

How many Christian/Veteran/etc. (i.e. "good guy") clubs were at TP Sunday? How many had weapons?


All excellent questions that would be answered of we actually knew. Waco Police was doubling the number of weapons until today. It may go down again tomorrow. We don't know and it seems like wpd doesn't know the answered to your questions
Is it possible they have recently got a good count on the number of weapons?


you think Waco Police waant able to count fifty knives and guns on Sunday?
so it's just a matter of showing up and counting weapons...got ya. there's no other investigation, or process involved.

"Joe, stack the weapons over there...we'll count them Tuesday..."
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91AggieLawyer
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2:59p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
We don't know and it seems like wpd doesn't know the answered to your questions

I share your concern that the Police themselves may not be fully forthcoming on all they know -- with the public or with the defendants.
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Illustrious Potentate
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In reply to maverick2076 • 3:01p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
There is a wide variety of motorcycle clubs, and the majority of them aren't even hell raisers.

Are there any reports that either the Waco PD or the Feds have any interest in charging such individuals if they happened to be at TP?

How many Christian/Veteran/etc. (i.e. "good guy") clubs were at TP Sunday? How many had weapons?


Quite a few. I listed some of them whose patches I recognized earlier. I'm not sure how big the central TX COC is, but there are somewhere around 250 different MCs, RCs, MAs, and MMs in the Houston COC. Only a very few of them are 1% clubs.
Yet, the COC is headed by a 1% club. Is that right?

That's what I don't understand. If all of these clubs are members of the COC, why do they associate themselves with an organization that is headed by outlaws?
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aggielostinETX
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In reply to Illustrious Potentate • 3:03p, 5/19/15
AG
I can issue around pocket knives. Legal vs. illegal
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txaggie02
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In reply to 91AggieLawyer • 3:05p, 5/19/15
AG
quote:
quote:

quote:
These "normal" groups that GS is talking about are still associating in SOME way with the Bandidos (sp??).

Is this another lawyer fact? Or actual fact? You seem to have alot of facts stored up that nobody else knowsabout.

What part of the statement is incorrect? The Bandidos were present, right? Were they hiding? Did the other groups not know they were there?

Are you really so intent on arguing with me that you've actually lost focus on what point you are trying to make or respond to?

My point is solely this: I don't buy the idea that the MCs at TP had absolutely no inclination that there could POSSIBLY be a violent incident there that day, and thus going there was irresponsible. THERE -- if you disagree, fine. Argue away. But you're making yourself look silly by introducing ad hominem. What my screen name is and what I do for a living isn't relevant to the discussion, so why bring it up?
Just because other MCs were there doesn't mean they are automatically "associated in SOME way with the Bandidos". They were at a meeting with representatives from a bunch of OMGs and MCs throughout the area. From articles, the Cossacks weren't invited and weren't even supposed to be present. From your statements, it sounds like you are trying to infer that the Bandidos started it all and everybody else should have left when they walked in and saw their vests. How do you know that the Cossacks didn't start it the second they walked in the door at the last minute? You don't. Nobody knows exactly who started what at this point.
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