I have a neighbor who just returned from the UK and Spain. She didn't, or wouldn't, say much ither than people weren't really using heat for their homes. What that means in reality I don't quite know.

England in the winter without heat, that's fun.

I've heard some stories of them going back to medieval sort of community heating rooms.

I've heard of a baker opening up a room above his bakery that's kept warm from the oven for anyone to heat up in

It's been a pretty mild winter (with some exceptions) so far. The experts think that they will get through this winter OK, but that the real test could be next winter.

As to how they are coping, they have gotten everyone to cut back. Some industries have been forced to cut back, and prices have risen enough (even with big government subsidies) that residential and business customers are cutting back. From what I've read, most of this has been taken with a pretty good attitude, so far. The Germans have almost treated it like a competition to see who can cut back the most. Throughout Europe, they historically have not heated their homes nearly as much as we do. The English love of ugly sweaters stems from this. I suppose things could change, but, as of now, it seems like they will get through THIS winter without too many problems.

I have not heard that. I've heard that we shouldn't say goodbye to Germany or the EU. Maybe say goodbye to zerohedge

Back in the day ,'80, went to Scotland for Christmas while folks were in Aberdeen.

Brother and I went pub'n, every pub we went to had the door wide open. Freaking freezing! That's when I figured out why they don't do the cold beer thing. Everywhere I went the place cold.

I guess they like that way, freaking Neanderthals!

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Any updates on this situation?

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Scroll to the charts: UPDATE

Putin has lost the gas war against Germany.

"In further evidence that Putin has lost the gas war, the German economy and population have been given an unequivocal all-clear by two sources at the same time: the state regulatory authority, and an industry association.

First, the Federal Network Agency officially announced that "a gas shortage this winter is becoming increasingly unlikely." In a newspaper interview, the head of the agency, Klaus Mller, added that he now expects gas prices to stop fluctuating and stabilize around the current level. This is still considerably higher than before, but far lower than the record levels seen in the summer. At these prices, the energy-intensive sectors of German industry "could finally work on gaining ground again," Mller said.

Shortly afterward, INES, the Association of German Gas and Hydrogen Storage Operators, presented scenarios for 2023 at its monthly press conference. Assuming normal weather and temperatures, the fill level at the end of this winter would be 65%, he said. That would be an extremely comfortable starting point for gas storage during the summer months, and for ensuring fill levels of 100% as early as next September.

In other words, industry experts are assuring German households and businesses that they need not expect any problems with gas reserves either this winter or next."

ENERGY

False. Germany is spending an inordinate amount of money to subsidize energy bills.

It's not sustainable. The globalists are losing, badly.

nortex97 said:

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False. Germany is spending an inordinate amount of money to subsidize energy bills.

It's not sustainable. The globalists are losing, badly.

---

True. The point of the link I posted (obviously you didn't read) is that Germany won't have to continue its emergency subsidy of domestic energy bills because it's worked its way out of the worst of the situation.

Keep up: PRICES

Good, then they can spend a significant % of GDP to defend Europe.

Same with the rest of the worthless freeloaders.

74OA said:

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nortex97 said:

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False. Germany is spending an inordinate amount of money to subsidize energy bills.

It's not sustainable. The globalists are losing, badly.

---

True. The point of the link I posted (obviously you didn't read) is that Germany won't have to continue its emergency subsidy of domestic energy bills because it's worked its way out of the worst of the situation.

Keep up: PRICES

---

It hasn't worked its way out at all. It is going into a huge recession, so demand is down significantly even as they got lucky that global warming bailed them out some this winter with a warmer than normal winter. Many industrial projects were shelved/cancelled there because of the energy scarcity/costs, not just the big Tesla gigafactory.

They've spent about $5,400 per person, so far (thru last month) just to keep the lights on. 12 percent of GDP. Some of the drop in demand/panic for gas is also attributable to good old coal coming back online. It's hilarious to behold, ultimately.

If Germany is good now sounds like it's time to cut our NATO spend share from 16% of total to 1%. Germany is also paying 16% and France is only paying 10%.

So a good first step is to increase France to 16% and drop us to 10% for a start. Zero reason for us to be tied with Germany carrying the largest cost share of NATO.

Make it happen.

YouBet said:

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Zero reason for us to be tied with Germany carrying the largest cost share of NATO.

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NATO is cheap insurance for us to make war in Europe an unwinnable proposition. That's a plenty good reason for us to ally with like-minded democratic societies like Germany.

"Leave NATO" is the Chesterton's fence of foreign policy. It's been an unparalleled success for American interests.

TriAg2010 said:

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YouBet said:

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Zero reason for us to be tied with Germany carrying the largest cost share of NATO.

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NATO is cheap insurance for us to make war in Europe an unwinnable proposition. That's a plenty good reason for us to ally with like-minded democratic societies like Germany.

"Leave NATO" is the Chesterton's fence of foreign policy. It's been an unparalleled success for American interests.

---

I'm not disputing its historical success or advantages it gave us. However, in 2023, there is zero reason for the US to carry the largest cost burden of any country when we are not even on the same continent. Europe has 4x the population of Russia and 15x+ the GDP. They are more than capable of owning their own fate and being more accountable to their own safety.

All I'm asking is that the cost share be redistributed so that we are not the highest payer. We need to be spending that money for security in the Western Hemisphere which is much more critically strategic to our interests. We have completely neglected our side of the planet because of our euro-biased mentality.

Most everything south of us continues to degrade and cause us immediate and direct negative impact. It's time to change that.

TriAg2010 said:

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YouBet said:

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Zero reason for us to be tied with Germany carrying the largest cost share of NATO.

---

NATO is cheap insurance for us to make war in Europe an unwinnable proposition. That's a plenty good reason for us to ally with like-minded democratic societies like Germany.

"Leave NATO" is the Chesterton's fence of foreign policy. It's been an unparalleled success for American interests.

---

Cheap insurance, yet we're the only ones that pay the premium.

AlaskanAg99 said:

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Good, then they can spend a significant % of GDP to defend Europe.

Same with the rest of the worthless freeloaders.

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Germany's defence minister poised to step down after series of errors | Financial Times

"The Instagram faux pas was the latest of a series of gaffes that had left Lambrecht's reputation in tatters. In December 2021 she admitted in an interview that she did not know the various army ranks: five months later she told another newspaper that she still did not know them. She was widely mocked shortly after the start of the Ukraine war when she was asked if Germany would provide military aid and replied that it would send Kyiv 5,000 helmets."

nortex97 said:

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74OA said:

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nortex97 said:

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False. Germany is spending an inordinate amount of money to subsidize energy bills.

It's not sustainable. The globalists are losing, badly.

---

True. The point of the link I posted (obviously you didn't read) is that Germany won't have to continue its emergency subsidy of domestic energy bills because it's worked its way out of the worst of the situation.

Keep up: PRICES

---

It hasn't worked its way out at all. It is going into a huge recession, so demand is down significantly even as they got lucky that global warming bailed them out some this winter with a warmer than normal winter. Many industrial projects were shelved/cancelled there because of the energy scarcity/costs, not just the big Tesla gigafactory.

They've spent about $5,400 per person, so far (thru last month) just to keep the lights on. 12 percent of GDP. Some of the drop in demand/panic for gas is also attributable to good old coal coming back online. It's hilarious to behold, ultimately.

---

It's an era of cheap energy. Never again will we see high prices. And if oil gets too high we'll just release our reserves to make it cheap again. Easy-peasy.

/Dems

YouBet said:

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TriAg2010 said:

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YouBet said:

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Zero reason for us to be tied with Germany carrying the largest cost share of NATO.

---

NATO is cheap insurance for us to make war in Europe an unwinnable proposition. That's a plenty good reason for us to ally with like-minded democratic societies like Germany.

"Leave NATO" is the Chesterton's fence of foreign policy. It's been an unparalleled success for American interests.

---

I'm not disputing its historical success or advantages it gave us. However, in 2023, there is zero reason for the US to carry the largest cost burden of any country when we are not even on the same continent. Europe has 4x the population of Russia and 15x+ the GDP. They are more than capable of owning their own fate and being more accountable to their own safety.

All I'm asking is that the cost share be redistributed so that we are not the highest payer. We need to be spending that money for security in the Western Hemisphere which is much more critically strategic to our interests. We have completely neglected our side of the planet because of our euro-biased mentality.

Most everything south of us continues to degrade and cause us immediate and direct negative impact. It's time to change that.

---

The direct cost of supporting NATO isn't the issue.

It's been European defense spending as a percentage of their GDP.

Which…for the first time in forever has increased.

Wonder why?

Third of seven German floating LNG terminals operational in record time. When all working will supply a third of Germany's gas needs. Combined with increased pipeline gas from Norway, puts Germany in a much more secure position.

ENERGY

YouBet said:

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TriAg2010 said:

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YouBet said:

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Zero reason for us to be tied with Germany carrying the largest cost share of NATO.

---

NATO is cheap insurance for us to make war in Europe an unwinnable proposition. That's a plenty good reason for us to ally with like-minded democratic societies like Germany.

"Leave NATO" is the Chesterton's fence of foreign policy. It's been an unparalleled success for American interests.

---

I'm not disputing its historical success or advantages it gave us. However, in 2023, there is zero reason for the US to carry the largest cost burden of any country when we are not even on the same continent. Europe has 4x the population of Russia and 15x+ the GDP. They are more than capable of owning their own fate and being more accountable to their own safety.

All I'm asking is that the cost share be redistributed so that we are not the highest payer. We need to be spending that money for security in the Western Hemisphere which is much more critically strategic to our interests. We have completely neglected our side of the planet because of our euro-biased mentality.

Most everything south of us continues to degrade and cause us immediate and direct negative impact. It's time to change that.

---

NATO is funded by indirect and direct member contributions.

Indirect contributions are made by members investing in their own national militaries. The guideline is 2% of GDP. Our large military is not sized and funded just to help defend Europe, but to protect our own global interests.

Direct contributions are made by member nations calculated from Gross National Income. This funds NATO's annual operating budget. The current annual budget is $3.5B. Despite being overall much wealthier than Germany, the US currently pays the same 16.3% of that amount as does Germany.

You're frothing over our direct contribution of roughly $215M annually. That's a rounding error in our federal budget.

NATO

Expert says that Germany has enough natural gas to last a lifetime-except Germany won't allow drilling!

Correct, and we are their biggest source of natural gas now. Way to go, frau Merkel.

Europe has made up a shortfall in its energy supply by increasing imports from the US. That shift could turn the US into Europe’s top energy supplier this year. US fracked gas is coming to green Europe’s rescue! #CostOfNetZero

Read more: https://t.co/X8ijFEBQL4 pic.twitter.com/tiUtSkpeUH

— Net Zero Watch (@NetZeroWatch) January 20, 2023

Oh, and they love the environment so much, they won't dump their Fauci condoms into the ocean, they are just burning 17 million of them.

"Germany is sitting on billions of expensive corona masks that are hardly needed anymore. Masks that are about to expire are now being burned on a large scale." https://t.co/l6pF01t7rC

— Andrew Bostom, MD, MS (@andrewbostom) January 20, 2023

nortex97 said:

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Correct, and we are their biggest source of natural gas now. Way to go, frau Merkel.

Europe has made up a shortfall in its energy supply by increasing imports from the US. That shift could turn the US into Europe’s top energy supplier this year. US fracked gas is coming to green Europe’s rescue! #CostOfNetZero

Read more: https://t.co/X8ijFEBQL4 pic.twitter.com/tiUtSkpeUH

— Net Zero Watch (@NetZeroWatch) January 20, 2023

Oh, and they love the environment so much, they won't dump their Fauci condoms into the ocean, they are just burning 17 million of them.

"Germany is sitting on billions of expensive corona masks that are hardly needed anymore. Masks that are about to expire are now being burned on a large scale." https://t.co/l6pF01t7rC

— Andrew Bostom, MD, MS (@andrewbostom) January 20, 2023

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throw enough of that **** in the fireplace and you won't freeze to death at least. finally, a use for masks!

74OA said:

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YouBet said:

---

TriAg2010 said:

---

YouBet said:

---

Zero reason for us to be tied with Germany carrying the largest cost share of NATO.

---

NATO is cheap insurance for us to make war in Europe an unwinnable proposition. That's a plenty good reason for us to ally with like-minded democratic societies like Germany.

"Leave NATO" is the Chesterton's fence of foreign policy. It's been an unparalleled success for American interests.

---

I'm not disputing its historical success or advantages it gave us. However, in 2023, there is zero reason for the US to carry the largest cost burden of any country when we are not even on the same continent. Europe has 4x the population of Russia and 15x+ the GDP. They are more than capable of owning their own fate and being more accountable to their own safety.

All I'm asking is that the cost share be redistributed so that we are not the highest payer. We need to be spending that money for security in the Western Hemisphere which is much more critically strategic to our interests. We have completely neglected our side of the planet because of our euro-biased mentality.

Most everything south of us continues to degrade and cause us immediate and direct negative impact. It's time to change that.

---

NATO is funded by indirect and direct member contributions.

Indirect contributions are made by members investing in their own national militaries. The guideline is 2% of GDP. Our large military is not sized and funded just to help defend Europe, but to protect our own global interests.

Direct contributions are made by member nations calculated from Gross National Income. This funds NATO's annual operating budget. The current annual budget is $3.5B. Despite being overall much wealthier than Germany, the US currently pays the same 16.3% of that amount as does Germany.

You're frothing over our direct contribution of roughly $215M annually. That's a rounding error in our federal budget.

NATO

---

This frequent argument that this "line item spend is a rounding error and doesn't move the needle" is exactly why we have a massive debt problem. It's a lazy ass argument and cop out.

$215M multiplied across too many to count line items that are all individually written off as rounding errors add up to huge numbers. Do you manage your personal budget that way? I don't.

If we are going to use that logic then we should no longer care whatsoever about what money even means and just print however much we want to have. In fact, just print me up $2M for my personal use! It's just a rounding error. No one will notice it!

And I guess even thinking about the western hemisphere, the one we are physically located in, and are impacted daily by in direct fashion, is irrelevant. That whole porous, open border with WMD level drugs now flowing across it doesn't matter. Neither do the narco states and dictatorships, I guess.

YouBet said:

---

74OA said:

---

YouBet said:

---

TriAg2010 said:

---

YouBet said:

---

Zero reason for us to be tied with Germany carrying the largest cost share of NATO.

---

NATO is cheap insurance for us to make war in Europe an unwinnable proposition. That's a plenty good reason for us to ally with like-minded democratic societies like Germany.

"Leave NATO" is the Chesterton's fence of foreign policy. It's been an unparalleled success for American interests.

---

I'm not disputing its historical success or advantages it gave us. However, in 2023, there is zero reason for the US to carry the largest cost burden of any country when we are not even on the same continent. Europe has 4x the population of Russia and 15x+ the GDP. They are more than capable of owning their own fate and being more accountable to their own safety.

All I'm asking is that the cost share be redistributed so that we are not the highest payer. We need to be spending that money for security in the Western Hemisphere which is much more critically strategic to our interests. We have completely neglected our side of the planet because of our euro-biased mentality.

Most everything south of us continues to degrade and cause us immediate and direct negative impact. It's time to change that.

---

NATO is funded by indirect and direct member contributions.

Indirect contributions are made by members investing in their own national militaries. The guideline is 2% of GDP. Our large military is not sized and funded just to help defend Europe, but to protect our own global interests.

Direct contributions are made by member nations calculated from Gross National Income. This funds NATO's annual operating budget. The current annual budget is $3.5B. Despite being overall much wealthier than Germany, the US currently pays the same 16.3% of that amount as does Germany.

You're frothing over our direct contribution of roughly $215M annually. That's a rounding error in our federal budget.

NATO

---

This frequent argument that this "line item spend is a rounding error and doesn't move the needle" is exactly why we have a massive debt problem. It's a lazy ass argument and cop out.

$215M multiplied across too many to count line items that are all individually written off as rounding errors add up to huge numbers. Do you manage your personal budget that way? I don't.

If we are going to use that logic then we should no longer care whatsoever about what money even means and just print however much we want to have. In fact, just print me up $2M for my personal use! It's just a rounding error. No one will notice it!

And I guess even thinking about the western hemisphere, the one we are physically located in, and are impacted daily by in direct fashion, is irrelevant. That whole porous, open border with WMD level drugs now flowing across it doesn't matter. Neither do the narco states and dictatorships, I guess.

---

The point is that we get huge return value for that tiny investment, and it is not the limiting factor for any lack of spending in this hemisphere.

We're not protecting Europe by being in NATO, we're protecting our own national strategic interests. We do roughly a trillion dollars of trade with the EU every year and that trade also generates approximately 2.6 million US jobs.

Only a miniscule fraction of US military spending is for NATO alone, the vast preponderance of funding is for forces used to protect all of our varied interests around the globe.

Failure to deter another major war in Europe could cost us tens of thousands of lives and many trillions of dollars in war costs and lost trade and, if the conflict went nuclear, might be the death of the US as we know it. So having the US lead NATO, stationing units in Europe to train on a daily basis with our allies and remaining fully integrated into the NATO command structure is far, far cheaper than the cost of another war.

Participation in NATO is straightforward risk management. We are simply protecting our trillion-dollar market in Europe the same way a prudent businessman invests in a $5K alarm system to protect a million-dollar structure. It's worth every penny.

Gas prices plummet by 50% in less than a month. Europe must be breathing a sigh of RELIEF.

This thread didn't age well.

The winter isn't over and the war is just getting started. Give it time.

B-1 83 said:

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This thread didn't age well.

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Like in most things, we have no idea what's going to happen in this life.

B-1 83 said:

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This thread didn't age well.

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They got smart and went back to O&G.

If they had been rational in the first place and not destroyed their own production, they never would have gotten here.

Faster than naysayers thought possible.

B-1 83 said:

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Faster than naysayers thought possible.

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Faster than anyone thought possible, including the Europeans themselves.

B-1 83 said:

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Faster than naysayers thought possible.

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Sorry, maybe I'm missing something. Are you suggesting the fed isn't wreaking havoc on the economy right now and they prices aren't coming down because the fed is destroying demand?

YouBet said:

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B-1 83 said:

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This thread didn't age well.

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They got smart and went back to O&G.

If they had been rational in the first place and not destroyed their own production, they never would have gotten here.

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So you're saying we (US) have a chance!

It depends on where in England… lived in London for 3 years and barely ever needed the heat. Summer heat with no AC was worse than the cold…at least in the winter I could put on more clothing.